Which Spindle and VFD... again

[adam_m]

Most of my projects will be in wood and carving but a few in aluminum.

Thanks for the insight, as always I can trust that I'll get an honest answer from the forum members.

I think I've been talked down off the ledge of investing large dollars into a spindle but maybe a few more into the VFD makes sense. I'm leaning now towards a square body 2.2KW ER25 something like this https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-2KW-Spind...wAAOSwmZFZpyV7

and maybe a Delta https://www.ebay.com/itm/DELTA-VFD-A...EAAOSw66pZi5Fy or a GE https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-GE-Fuji...gAAOSwSdZWdcw0 or Hitachi https://www.ebay.com/itm/HITACHI-NES...gAAOSwQWxbDCad I'm not sure who else makes reliable VFD's??

Do you have a VFD preference?

Adam,

[ger21]

That's the spindle I'd probably buy if I were to upgrade mine.
But again, I have no experience with it at all.

For a few $$ more, you can get a more powerful version.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-5KW-1-92N...8AAOSwWxNYwopx
It's probably a lot heavier, though.

I'm happy with my Huanyang VFD, and would definitely buy another one.

[A_Camera]

I think even regarding VFD, the preference is what people have and if they are happy with or not. Most people are happy with the one they have, and only a few have USER experience from more than one or two brand. Personally I use Bosch Rexroth which I am happy with, so I would not hesitate buying a new one. Otherwise I looked at Hitachi, Schneider and some more but don't remember exactly why I ended up with Bosch, except that my experience with everything with a Bosch label on it is positive plus that I liked the manual because it was well written and very promising, as always with Bosch, so I bought one. No regrets, it gave me what I wanted. I dismissed Huanyang very early because it does not provide Modbus and the manual was totally Chinglish, very unclear and poorly written and I did not trust their electrical safety or quality norms, so I have very early decided to buy ONLY real brand, which I knew I can trust. So for me, Hitachi, Shcneider, Bosch, Mitsubishi, Omron, Siemens... and similar real brands which was interesting.

[mactec54]

Most of my projects will be in wood and carving but a few in aluminum.

Thanks for the insight, as always I can trust that I'll get an honest answer from the forum members.

I think I've been talked down off the ledge of investing large dollars into a spindle but maybe a few more into the VFD makes sense. I'm leaning now towards a square body 2.2KW ER25 something like this https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-2KW-Spind...wAAOSwmZFZpyV7

and maybe a Delta https://www.ebay.com/itm/DELTA-VFD-A...EAAOSw66pZi5Fy or a GE https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-GE-Fuji...gAAOSwSdZWdcw0 or Hitachi https://www.ebay.com/itm/HITACHI-NES...gAAOSwQWxbDCad I'm not sure who else makes reliable VFD's??

Do you have a VFD preference?

Adam,

Looks to be a good spindle has the all the correct specs, any of the VFD Drives they are all good brand names, for a longer life get a larger Hp rated VFD than the spindle rating

Why air cooled

[mactec54]

I think even regarding VFD, the preference is what people have and if they are happy with or not. Most people are happy with the one they have, and only a few have USER experience from more than one or two brand. Personally I use Bosch Rexroth which I am happy with, so I would not hesitate buying a new one. Otherwise I looked at Hitachi, Schneider and some more but don't remember exactly why I ended up with Bosch, except that my experience with everything with a Bosch label on it is positive plus that I liked the manual because it was well written and very promising, as always with Bosch, so I bought one. No regrets, it gave me what I wanted. I dismissed Huanyang very early because it does not provide Modbus and the manual was totally Chinglish, very unclear and poorly written and I did not trust their electrical safety or quality norms, so I have very early decided to buy ONLY real brand, which I knew I can trust. So for me, Hitachi, Shcneider, Bosch, Mitsubishi, Omron, Siemens... and similar real brands which was interesting.

Again talking a load of rubbish , Huanyang have Modbus and hundreds are using it, to control there spindle, also there manual is as good as any Bosh manual you have

Just remember your Bosch VFD was made in China also as is most other VFD Drives brands, you would be paying a whole lot more for the same product if it was not made in China

[dazp1976]

And. From my experience with power tools Bosch products have gone downhill since moving productions out of Germany.
If I was to go branded it would be Siemens or Mitsubishi or Omron.

Haven't had any my self but my previous employers equipment used either Siemens or Omron inverters running servo motors and never failed the whole time.

[adam_m]

For ease of install is the main reason for going air cooled. Also since I have an MDF wasteboard and the possibility of leakage is a corncern.

So I’m a little confused on how I can go to a 3.5kw that uses the same VFD as a 2.2kw spindle 300hz. The VFD would have enough power for the spindle upgrade?

So my understanding between “Chinese” products and the manufacturing is that the Chinese may make some products but are held to higher standards when manufacturing for other companies. If they are manufacturing for themselves the standards are lower, maybe a misnomer.

I tend to avoid Chinese electronics for that reason they use inferior components in their product although they may work but longevity/safety and dependability is a question for me.

That discussion is for another thread though.

[ger21]

So I’m a little confused on how I can go to a 3.5kw that uses the same VFD as a 2.2kw spindle 300hz. The VFD would have enough power for the spindle upgrade?

No, you'd need a different VFD for a 3.5KW Spindle.

[A_Camera]

Again talking a load of rubbish , Huanyang have Modbus and hundreds are using it, to control there spindle, also there manual is as good as any Bosh manual you have

Yes? Please show me...

Just remember your Bosch VFD was made in China also as is most other VFD Drives brands, you would be paying a whole lot more for the same product if it was not made in China

No kidding... ...remember that I was the one who introduced it on this site. As far as I know, NOBODY even heard about it before I started asking questions about it and in the end bought it... Notice that I even concluded that it was Made in China, and NEVER EVER said that Made in China = crap. I even made a short video about it before you have EVER seen one of these...



...but it's night and day between the Bosch and the Huanyang when it comes to documentation, quality and usability. Of course, you have some magical product nobody ever seen...

...but please continue... which I am sure you will anyway.

[A_Camera]

And. From my experience with power tools Bosch products have gone downhill since moving productions out of Germany.
If I was to go branded it would be Siemens or Mitsubishi or Omron.

Haven't had any my self but my previous employers equipment used either Siemens or Omron inverters running servo motors and never failed the whole time.

If you have problems with Bosch not having production in Germany then I think you have problems with the others as well. BTW, Bosch is pretty large, they have production on many places, both in Europe and elsewhere. I have no problems with that, as long as the products are well made, documented, providing support AND fulfil European safety regulations. I buy "Made in Europe" products if I can, but that's not always possible today. That's the reality. I am pretty sure Siemens is also made somewhere else than Germany, and probably all the others as well. How many Bosch products do you have experience with? I have a whole bunch of them, the latest (also Made in China) is actually a coffee maker, which I bought just a few days ago, replaced my Made in Europe crappy Electrolux with...

[A_Camera]

So my understanding between “Chinese” products and the manufacturing is that the Chinese may make some products but are held to higher standards when manufacturing for other companies. If they are manufacturing for themselves the standards are lower, maybe a misnomer.

I tend to avoid Chinese electronics for that reason they use inferior components in their product although they may work but longevity/safety and dependability is a question for me.

That discussion is for another thread though.

It is a general advice (on this forum) to buy a more powerful VFD than motor. Not necessary if you have a better VFD, but may be necessary if you go for the Huanyang or similar brandless because they may not deliver as promised by the specs, they are often labelled on the optimistic side...

Made in China is not a quality indicator today, but Made for eBay definitely is. If it is made for eBay then you can count on them as lottery, but for most people it does not matter because they work. Mactec pays his bills repairing those, so of course he advocates the cheapo Huanyang. I also try to avoid Chinese products but for other reasons. In general you can NEVER say that something is good or bad just because it is made in one country or the other. Anyway, you wanted a list and I gave you one, which included what I have, because I KNOW it is VERY high quality.

[mactec54]

For ease of install is the main reason for going air cooled. Also since I have an MDF wasteboard and the possibility of leakage is a corncern.

So I’m a little confused on how I can go to a 3.5kw that uses the same VFD as a 2.2kw spindle 300hz. The VFD would have enough power for the spindle upgrade?

So my understanding between “Chinese” products and the manufacturing is that the Chinese may make some products but are held to higher standards when manufacturing for other companies. If they are manufacturing for themselves the standards are lower, maybe a misnomer.

I tend to avoid Chinese electronics for that reason they use inferior components in their product although they may work but longevity/safety and dependability is a question for me.

That discussion is for another thread though.

Confused, No you would need the right sized VFD to match the Spindle motor

No that is not correct the Chinese electronics are no more inferior than any other electronics that are made, in most cases they are using the same components for there VFD Drives, the Spindle you are looking at is made in China, as most are, the same spindle made by other manufactures in other countries would be 3 time the price and not a whole lot better

[mactec54]

It is a general advice (on this forum) to buy a more powerful VFD than motor. Not necessary if you have a better VFD, but may be necessary

Some more quotes, that are not correct, showing your lack of knowledge on the subject, you are now saying you know more than the manufactures do, and have only used / installed ( 1 ) VFD Drive ever

All Manufactures recommend to use a larger rated VFD Drive, it does not matter what Brand name it is, if it is not Single Phase Rated, 3 Phase VFD Drives that are NOT rated for Single Phase have to be 1Hp to 2 HP Rated larger than the Spindle /Motor being driven

Mactec pays his bills repairing those, so of course he advocates the cheapo Huanyang. .

I don't have bills, to pay, so not sure where you are coming from with you arrogance

Actually I have not repaired any for some time, so more of your nonsense , the only time they needed repair was form incorrect Parameter setting, by the operator, I look at just as many other brand name VFD Drives for repair, so has noting to do with the quality, the Huanyang has reached the same standards as any other VFD, even your made in China Bosch

I don't use a Huanyang VFD myself, I use Yaskawa and buy them 20 at a time

[mactec54]

Yes? Please show me...



No kidding... ...remember that I was the one who introduced it on this site. As far as I know, NOBODY even heard about it before I started asking questions about it and in the end bought it... Notice that I even concluded that it was Made in China, and NEVER EVER said that Made in China = crap. I even made a short video about it before you have EVER seen one of these...

...but it's night and day between the Bosch and the Huanyang when it comes to documentation, quality and usability. Of course, you have some magical product nobody ever seen...

...but please continue... which I am sure you will anyway.

You where not the first to post on your Bosch VFD there have been others before you, I have even repaired the Bosch VFD Drives and installed them, they are nothing special just a higher price, just as many other VFD Drives have high Price for little extra return, for the basic use to run a AC 3 Ph Spindle, I use Higher price VFD Drives all the time but it is what the customer spec's so you give them what they want

The low cost Huanyang is a bare bones VFD Drive, you get what you pay for, this thread was not about a Huanyang VFD drive, but you seem to have a thing about them, and have never had your hand on one

A Snip of the Modbus for Huanyang

[Al_The_Man]

I dismissed Huanyang very early because it does not provide Modbus and the manual was totally Chinglish, very unclear and poorly written .

I was investigating the Huanyang "Modbus" interface early on, and yes the early manualls from them describing the Modbus was total gibberish, also it did not help it is Not really compliant to standard Modbus, I think those guys were smoking something when then came up with it.
I conversed with Sebastien, the guy that came up with the 'modbus' plug-in for Mach and between him and using a RS232 program was able to decipher the commands used, or at least most of them..
The later manuals are a little better at explaining but extra work is needed.
Al.

[adam_m]

I realize the discussion about Chinese products could go on for a while and I really think it will be hard to verbally prove one product is better than the other so I'm going to let that go by the waist side and get back on topic.

2 questions assuming a 3.5KW spindle...

1) For reference am I meeting or exceeding the VFD rating for the spindle, I assume yes. This is for reference only https://www.ebay.com/itm/UPDATED-220...IAAOSw0LlZlUM9 I assume this would be fine and cover the spindle requirements and allow for additional "Buffer" if needed.?

2) The operating frequency of the spindle, is that directly tied to the RPM? meaning 300Hz = 18,000 RPM?

Adam,

[ger21]

If you are going to buy a chinese VFD, make sure you get a genuine Huanyang.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TOP-QUALITY...kAAOSwyQtVvbWL

Yes, frequency is what controls the RPM.

[A_Camera]

You where not the first to post on your Bosch VFD there have been others before you, I have even repaired the Bosch VFD Drives and installed them, they are nothing special just a higher price, just as many other VFD Drives have high Price for little extra return,

Those words shows how little you know about the Bosch... you make me laugh every time you talk about it.

The low cost Huanyang is a bare bones VFD Drive, you get what you pay for, this thread was not about a Huanyang VFD drive, but you seem to have a thing about them, and have never had your hand on one

I have nothing against them. You get what you pay for. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

A Snip of the Modbus for Huanyang

Again, a proof of you knowing NOTHING about Modbus. The page you posted with the example message is NOT a valid Modbus message, it's just nonsense. If you want to proof that the specific VFD is Modbus capable please list the model name, or post the full manual. Yes, there may be Modbus capable Huanyang VFDs though they must be rare, but in that case the model number is extremely important because most have just something only THEY are calling Modbus, but no software following the REAL Modbus standard can communicate with them. That's the reason people create special plugins. Have you missed that?

[A_Camera]

I realize the discussion about Chinese products could go on for a while and I really think it will be hard to verbally prove one product is better than the other so I'm going to let that go by the waist side and get back on topic.

2 questions assuming a 3.5KW spindle...

1) For reference am I meeting or exceeding the VFD rating for the spindle, I assume yes. This is for reference only https://www.ebay.com/itm/UPDATED-220...IAAOSw0LlZlUM9 I assume this would be fine and cover the spindle requirements and allow for additional "Buffer" if needed.?

2) The operating frequency of the spindle, is that directly tied to the RPM? meaning 300Hz = 18,000 RPM?

Adam,

Beware of that seller! I would NEVER buy anything from a seller with 95% rate. Other than that, yes with that VFD you have a good margin, assuming it is REALLY 4kW, but ask the seller for the full manual BEFORE you hit the "Buy it now" button. If he is not providing the manual, or you don't understand what's written in it then don't buy it unless you know someone who can help you, or you are prepared to fry it. A seller who won't provide you with the manual, or a link to the manual in advance is not a serious seller.

If your spindle is 18,000 RPM at 300Hz it means that when the VFD outputs 300Hz then the spindle will rotate with 18k RPM, 150Hz will be 9k RPM. You must configure the VFD for the motor, so you WILL need the manual, or some help, but the link shows a nameless VFD, so it is really a hit and miss, you may not find anyone who can help you with it.

[A_Camera]

I was investigating the Huanyang "Modbus" interface early on, and yes the early manualls from them describing the Modbus was total gibberish, also it did not help it is Not really compliant to standard Modbus, I think those guys were smoking something when then came up with it.

Yes, I have also looked at their "Modbus" and they definitely smoked something when they created that protocol. I have no idea why they wanted to invent the square wheel when there are round ones which work well... Modbus is open standard, and it was open ALL the time, so there was really no reason for them to create their own and invent something which is NOT Modbus.

I conversed with Sebastien, the guy that came up with the 'modbus' plug-in for Mach and between him and using a RS232 program was able to decipher the commands used, or at least most of them..
The later manuals are a little better at explaining but extra work is needed.
Al.

Yes, there are some people who managed to decipher and implement plugins for both Mach3 and UCCNC so users can use RS485, but it is sooooooo much easier to implement in Brains in Mach3, or writing macros for UCCNC when the protocol is standard Modbus. It took me an hour in Mach3 to get the basic controls working and only a half an hour to write a basic macro code for UCCNC. Of course, today I have more than just ON/OFF/FWD/REV and RPM controls...