Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
I recently acquired a lathe with a 5HP/14.2A three phase motor. My little garage shop only has 220V single phase power. I assumed that I could just get a VFD to convert my single phase to three phase to power the lathe and have the added bonus of soft starts/stops and more spindle RPM control. What I am finding is that most VFDs above about 2-3HP do not accept single phase input. Ugh!
It appears that if I double the VFD power rating (i.e., get a 10HP/28.4A VFD) that I could feed a three phase input VFD with single phase. Any downsides to this?
Alternatively, the Huanyang VFDs appear to be the only ones that go up to 5HP with an advertised single phase input. However, I'm a little leary of their quality.
Any advice on how to proceed or specific makes/models would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
JJ
p.s. - I know this is CNCzone, not manual lathe zone...I do have a converted mill and am planning to convert this one to CNC as well
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Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
I believe the Automation Direct higher HP GS2 series will accept single phase input even though they are not rated for that. The GS3 series above 3 HP will not accept single phase input from what I have heard. I have a 15 HP Saftronics that works just fine on single phase.
I know of no downside to running a 3 phase motor through a VFD connected to single phase.
Jim Dawson
Sandy, Oregon, USA
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
Thanks...I'll check them out as well. The question will be whether I will need a 10HP unit to feed it single phase (versus only the 5HP that I actually need).Originally Posted by Jim Dawson
Not worried about that, more worried about downsides of feeding single phase into a 3 phase VFD. These things are like black magic to me. I have no clue how they can even do what they do!
Anybody running single phase input with actual 5HP motor loads using this Huanyang type VFD from Automation Technologies?:
https://www.automationtechnologiesin...-inverter-vfd/
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
Due to the popularity of the 5hp ATC's, Yaskawa has produced a V1000 model that is single phase input rated
Gary Campbell GCnC Control
Servo Control & ATC Retrofits
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
No down size to using a 3 phase VFD just get it a larger capacity than needed, for your motor, why larger than needed, the components in the VFD will be rated higher, when running on single phase you need a lot more input amps to achieve the 3Phase motor needs, so the input side of the VFD Drive has to be more robust
Use around 7hp up to 10Hp any 3phase VFD will do this for you, there is no need a single Phase VFD, you will only pay more for a single phase drive
The main thing you want for a lathe is that the VFD supports a Braking Resistor, the normal Huanyang does not support a Braking Resistor, so if you want to go with a Huanyang then you have to order it with the Braking Resistor, you will need this for your 5Hp lathe motor
Mactec54
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
Any Yaskawa VFD will run on single Phase up to the limit of the single phase supply that you have, a single phase VFD is not need, any 3 Phase VFD will do the same job,without the extra expense, only one requirement, the VFD is sized right for the motor it is driving
The V1000 is a Vector Drive, you don't want a Vector Drive for a standard Ac 3 phase motor
He just needs any general purpose VFD Drive, that is larger than the motor he is driving, and supports a Braking Resistor
Mactec54
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
Unless the VFD is single phase rated, I would use a 10 HP unit for your application. The only downside to feeding a 3 phase VFD with single phase is that the VFD needs to be larger than the output would indicate because of the limitations of the rectifier stage in the VFD. The front end electronics needs to be able handle at least 25 amps in the case of 5 HP, single phase, 230V.
You're right, it is magic.
Jim Dawson
Sandy, Oregon, USA
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
Thanks all to the excellent inputs. I greatly appreciate it!
When I looked at the Yaskawa website and their PDF catalog, I somehow did not notice a 5HP rated single phase input VFD. Thanks to this thread, I now see that they offer the CIMR-VUBA0018FAA model number found here: https://www.yaskawa.com/products/dri...odels38Ratings
However, this is a 'vector drive'...is this really a no-go for my application? Should I really be searching for a 7.5HP rated drive instead (or 10HP if three phase input)? I found a used one with 1 year warranty for $250. That seems like a good deal if it will at least work for my initial application. Recall that for starters I simply want to use it as a convenient phase converter (versus a rotary phase converter) with the added benefit of spindle speed control and softer starts/stops. A Huanyang of similar HP rating is almost identical in price.
Any advice is appreciated.
JJ
p.s. - why do they rate these VFDs by HP if you need to get a larger HP rated VFD than your motor? The plate on my motor states 14.2A and that model of Yaskawa is rated for 17.5A (with overload of 120% for 60s in 'normal mode' and 150% for 60s in 'heavy duty' mode).
Last edited by JJ0704; 05-10-2018 at 10:16 PM.
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
A vector drive would work, but your motor you have may not play nice with it, a Vector VFD Drive should be used with a Vector Duty Rated motor, to be able to use the benefits of a Vector Drive, the motor would also have an encoder feed back to the VFD Drive, this is what is normal for a Vector Drive
The Yaskawa G7 5.5Kw 25P5 has a input amp rating of 32A and an output of 27A so this would be all you would need any quality VFD Drive that is 5.5Kw will have a similar amperage rating
Mactec54
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
I spoke with the good people at Yaskawa today to get their recommendations for a VFD given my situation. They recommended the V1000 with model number CIMR-VUBA0018FAA as mentioned above. They said that my old 3 phase motor should have no issues with this drive at all and setting it up should be as easy as just hooking up the wires for my simple application. Their only concern was with the insulation rating if it was a 480V system (which it is not). They seemed to have a great support staff and happy to answer any questions. I like this company so far!
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
He was talking BS it has nothing to do with if you had a 480v system or a 240v system
They do have good help, but not all will give you the correct information, sales will sell you anything you want, as I said in the last post it may not play nice with your motor, as you have not said what your motor is
I Know the Yaskawa VFDs and Servo system very well, have lots of them in stock, so know what would work best for you
Mactec54
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
You asked why do you need a higher rated VFD Drive than the motors name plate Hp, it is very simple, your motor is 3Ph and you are driving the VFD with Single Phase, so when you run a VFD Drive on Single Phase, your needed input power ( amperage ) will be greater to supply the 3 Phase output to the motor, ( Nothing is a free ride )
If you are set on getting a Vector Drive make sure it is a "Sensorless Vector Drive" , if it is a straight Vector Drive it is not going to work for the standard 3phase Ac motor you have, without adding an Encoder to the motor shaft so you can close the loop, and then a Vector Drive can control and run your motor
A Sensorless Vector VFD Drive can run any 3 Phase Ac motor and do a better job than a regular VFD Drive, so as long as you know it has to be Sensorless Vector for your motor
Mactec54
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
Thanks for the advise and explanation mactec54! Since the V1000 is a sensorless vector drive, I should be good to go. Therefore, I went ahead and purchased the used unit I saw with 1 year warranty since it seemed like a darn good deal. I'll be sure to report back if it worked and any lessons learned.
THANK YOU GUYS!!!
v/r,
Esox
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
this made my day. i just wired a 3p 5hp v1000 with 1p to a 3p 3hp spindle and couldnt be happier. i wish i knew sooner.
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
There are basically 3 types of VFD, V/F (variable frequency), Sensorless Vector and Sensor feed back.
The V/F will output a variable frequency with virtually no type of feedback as the the position of the motor rotor, this is fine for some low demand applications, fans etc.
With the sensorless vector, the control processor attempts to determine the optimum position of the motor rotor (90deg vector angle) for maximum torque control where no other feedback is present.
With the optimum sensored feedback via a encoder etc, the VFD knows the position of the motor rotor precisely, and can control RPM etc, and position if needed for applications such as Tool changers where the spindle has to orient to an exact position.
Al.
CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
Albert E.
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
You are only happy because you where able to use it in Sensorless Vector mode, if your V1000 was as it was originally designed as a Vector Drive you would not be happy at all, as you would not be able to use it without an Encoder Feed back from the spindle, any Sensorless Vector VFD drive can be used for any regular 3 Ph Ac motor
The other posts where about using a Vector Drive for a regular 3 Ph Ac motor
Mactec54
The plan is to install an encoder. But once I ran my spindle, I noticed how noisy the vsh is and have decided to ditch it and use fixed pulleys. Then accommodate the encoder. Any advice?
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
The website says "The V1000 is a world-class compact current vector drive that...", which I assume is a sensorless vector. For some folks (like myself), all I really need is to set it at 60Hz and provide 3 phase power to my lathe. If I can actually use it to dial in a specific spindle RPM that I can't get through my gearbox, get softer starts/stops, etc. that is just a bonus for me. That being said, it appears that the V1000 also has the ability to accept a sensor feedback input (like an encoder) if you want.
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
You both have by what you are saying regular 3Ph Ac motors, having a Vector Drive is a waste for a regular 3Ph Ac motor, you can not use the benefits of a Vector Drive with a Regular 3 Ph Ac motor, so unless you where able to buy them at a good price, you have wasted your money
The drive will run your standard 3Ph motors with no problem, and will be driving them just as a General Purpose VFD would have, can you add an encoder, to your motor yes you could, but this won't give you a Vector Duty Motor so the whole exercise would be a waste, why, because you still would not be able to take advantage of the Vector Drive, as your motor would fail if you did
Using a Sensorless Vector Drive, can have some very slight advantages, for a regular 3Ph Ac motor, by programing it to suit the motor you are running, it can help to maintain torque control at lower RPM, most regular 3Ph Ac motors are not designed to do this so will fail if it was used in full vector control
If you want to take advantage of your expensive Vector Drive, then buy the correct matching Vector Duty Motor
With all that, I can see in the next 10 years, a regular VFD Drive will be replaced by the Sensorless Vector Drive
A snip of a Inverter Duty Vector Motor, this is just ( 1 ) example of a Vector Duty 3Ph Ac motor
Mactec54
Re: Correct VFD for 5HP Motor with Single Phase Input
I like the way you described it, that make sense to me! And yes, I would NOT have purchased a V1000 for just this lathe task. I looked at the cost of a decent rotary phase converter versus a VFD and the VFD option seems to give you more bang for the buck. Plus, I am getting my V1000 for less than $300 shipped with one year warranty. If I hadn't found that deal, I would still be hunting for a cheap VFD (variable frequency or sensorless vector...whatever was cheaper).
JJ
p.s. - Incidentally I do have a 3 phase 1.5hp motor that I bought last year for my CNC converted G0704 mill that does have an encoder. So, I get the added bonus of being able to use it to drive that instead if I want.
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