Huanyang VFD, activate relay when running below predefined RPM?

[phucrobusl]

I have chinese 1.5kW spindle with Huanyang VFD. It's air cooled by fan mounted directly to shaft, so it should not run under 8000 RPM. But i installed another auxiliary fan and i want to run it automaticaly when motor runs and RPM drops below 8000. How can i do it?

I've tried following settings:

PD052 Multi-Output 3?FA, FB, FC relay function? = 6 (uniform frequency 1 (PD060) reach)

But that energizes the relay only when i exactly hit the PD060 frequency (+- hysteresis band can be set to 1-10Hz by PD062).

Then i tried "multi pump" feature:

• PD130 = 1 (number of aux pumps)
• PD052 = 25 (link pump 1 to relay)
• PD060 = high freq
• PD061 = low freq

But that does nothing. I can't get it to work (not sure what VFD model i have, some don't have this feature, but i can set these values, so i guess it's there).

How should i do it? I need the VFD to work like this:

spindle stopped -> RELAY OFF
spindle running at >= 8000 -> RELAY OFF
spindle running at < 8000 -> RELAY ON

(relay has both NO and NC contacts, so it can be other way round)

Do you have any idea, how can i achieve this?

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[ger21]

What control software are you using? Maybe you can have the software handle it?

[phucrobusl]

That differs. Sometimes i control VFD manualy by its buttons, sometimes i control it thru GRBL. I am fully aware of several possible workarounds. But i want to set it up using VFD if possible, because that's right way to do it. Hope there will be some Hunayang guru that will tell me what i am doing wrong :-)

[Al_The_Man]

Have you tried setting the relay out to '9 'Arbitrary freq 2 reach' and set P0086 to the desired setting.
Al.

[phucrobusl]

Have you tried setting the relay out to '9 'Arbitrary freq 2 reach' and set P0086 to the desired setting.

I've set PD052 relay to 06 (Uniform Frequency 1 Reach: The contact will act when the output frequency of the inverterreaches the designated frequency (PD060))

According to my manual the 09 has different meaning:
09? In Decel: The contact will act when the inverter is in ramp-down.


But as i say. It only pulses the relay when VFD crosses that frequency, but does not stay energized once frequency continues to go further behind the PD060 value...

[mactec54]

I have chinese 1.5kW spindle with Huanyang VFD. It's air cooled by fan mounted directly to shaft, so it should not run under 8000 RPM. But i installed another auxiliary fan and i want to run it automaticaly when motor runs and RPM drops below 8000. How can i do it?

I've tried following settings:

PD052 Multi-Output 3?FA, FB, FC relay function? = 6 (uniform frequency 1 (PD060) reach)

But that energizes the relay only when i exactly hit the PD060 frequency (+- hysteresis band can be set to 1-10Hz by PD062).

Then i tried "multi pump" feature:

• PD130 = 1 (number of aux pumps)
• PD052 = 25 (link pump 1 to relay)
• PD060 = high freq
• PD061 = low freq

But that does nothing. I can't get it to work (not sure what VFD model i have, some don't have this feature, but i can set these values, so i guess it's there).

How should i do it? I need the VFD to work like this:

spindle stopped -> RELAY OFF
spindle running at >= 8000 -> RELAY OFF
spindle running at < 8000 -> RELAY ON

(relay has both NO and NC contacts, so it can be other way round)

Do you have any idea, how can i achieve this?

Why don't you set the correct Parameter so it won't go below the 8,000 RPM it's as simple as that, just these 2 Parameters being set correct for your spindle minimum speed ,

Your fan if you need one should run all the time the spindle is running so using any of the relay output to suit On / Off will work

PD011=150 adjust to suit your minimum RPM

PD73=150 adjust to suit your minimum RPM Both of these need to be set the same

[mactec54]

I've set PD052 relay to 06 (Uniform Frequency 1 Reach: The contact will act when the output frequency of the inverterreaches the designated frequency (PD060))

According to my manual the 09 has different meaning:
09? In Decel: The contact will act when the inverter is in ramp-down.


But as i say. It only pulses the relay when VFD crosses that frequency, but does not stay energized once frequency continues to go further behind the PD060 value...

That's because you have programed decelerating and it is pulsing the relay, that would be controlling a Brake on / off to slow down a rotating mass

[phucrobusl]

Why don't you set the correct Parameter so it won't go below the 8,000 RPM it's as simple as that

I asked about how can i automaticaly enable cooling under 8000 RPM, not how to prevent going under 8000 RPM completely. I am already doing this. Reason why i added external cooling is that i want to use my spindle in low RPM, because it's very useful when cutting plastics (even with 1 flute endmill and fast). I can simply set relay to switch the fan on, when the spindle is running, but i have very powerful fan (from 1U server) and it's loud, so i don't want to run it when over 8000 RPM and spindle fan is sufficient.

That's because you have programed decelerating and it is pulsing the relay, that would be controlling a Brake on / off to slow down a rotating mass

Not really. It happens even on accelerating and it does not have anything to do with braking. It's just auxiliary relay configured to switch when spindle is at defined frequency...

[mactec54]

I asked about how can i automaticaly enable cooling under 8000 RPM, not how to prevent going under 8000 RPM completely. I am already doing this. Reason why i added external cooling is that i want to use my spindle in low RPM, because it's very useful when cutting plastics (even with 1 flute endmill and fast). I can simply set relay to switch the fan on, when the spindle is running, but i have very powerful fan (from 1U server) and it's loud, so i don't want to run it when over 8000 RPM and spindle fan is sufficient..

I gave you what you need to do, You won't find a way to do what you want with a Huanyang VFD, your air cooled spindle should not be running below 8,000 and there again if it does then it is incorrectly Programed

It can have a lot to do with Braking , it's just you don't know it

If you set the Parameters correct it can not go below the set value

Get a quieter fan, it does not have to be noisy

The only way, may be by using Modbus and writing your own program

Or Just a may be, you could try to program the PLC

Not really. It happens even on accelerating and it does not have anything to do with braking. It's just auxiliary relay configured to switch when spindle is at defined frequency...

That would be because of what Parameters you have set, it can do that in both directions

But don't expect to do what you want to do, with a Huanyang VFD, even some of the top VFD Drives won't do this, you can not assign the relays to do very much at all, just basic normal functions

[jhovel]

Don't give up because someone else says you should.
But if and when you find a solution, make sure you tell us! That would be a great function for others and their application.

I wonder if you could build an external relay controller that only switches the fan when the rpms drop? But I'm way out of my depth here.
What about a thermostat on the spindle itself, switching the fan on only when needed - irrespective of rpm?

Cheers, Joe

[mactec54]

Don't give up because someone else says you should.
But if and when you find a solution, make sure you tell us! That would be a great function for others and their application.

I wonder if you could build an external relay controller that only switches the fan when the rpms drop? But I'm way out of my depth here.
What about a thermostat on the spindle itself, switching the fan on only when needed - irrespective of rpm?

Cheers, Joe

No one said it can't be done, and he should give up, it's just what he wants to do and how he was trying to do it, that is not going anywhere, I'm sure there is something that would work, but not the approach he was taking

A thermostat would be a good approach, I believe he is trying to run his spindle too slow, for a air cooled spindle, and this is where the problem is

[mactec54]

I asked about how can i automaticaly enable cooling under 8000 RPM, not how to prevent going under 8000 RPM completely. I am already doing this. Reason why i added external cooling is that i want to use my spindle in low RPM, because it's very useful when cutting plastics (even with 1 flute endmill and fast). I can simply set relay to switch the fan on, when the spindle is running, but i have very powerful fan (from 1U server) and it's loud, so i don't want to run it when over 8000 RPM and spindle fan is sufficient.

After looking at what you had tried closely, this may work with these settings, make sure the relay from the VFD Drive has enough amperage rating to switch your fan, most do, but you should check

Try this as it should turn on a relay and do what you want, you may have to change other parameters you where using back to the Default settings as they may stop this from working

This will turn on a relay, I don't no if PD062 will control the on / off that well, you can only try it

PD052=07

PD061=150Hz or adjust to get to the 8,000 rpm

PD062= the frequency range that you want it to be on or off, this may need to be set at max of 10Hz if to low it may cause switching on/off rapidly as the spindle RPMs will fluctuate, this may of been what you where seeing with the relays before

[steve323]

What about a thermostat on the spindle itself, switching the fan on only when needed - irrespective of rpm?

Cheers, Joe

I like this idea the best. The fan is needed when temperatures rise, not simply because of RPM. I haven't looked for a solution, but it seems like it might be simpler. There might be a ready made solution to control an attic fan.

Steve

[jhovel]

An attic fan thermostat may have too much hysteresis (difference between switching on and off).
I suspect that one would need a thermostat that won't allow the temperature to change much at all, because an air cooled spindle can heat up very fast indeed, compared to a water cooled spindle.

Cheers, Joe

[phucrobusl]

I believe he is trying to run his spindle too slow, for a air cooled spindle, and this is where the problem is

That's the exact point of this thread. I try to run air cooled spindle at speeds that are usualy only achieved by water cooled spindles. Only problem is the cooling fan is on the spindle shaft, so at low RPM it does not provide sufficient airflow. That's usualy solved by water cooling. But i just want to install external fan, that will provide airflow similar to airflow of internal fan at full RPMs, because for me it seems more practical than handle all the water plumbing.

A thermostat would be a good approach

I guess so. But i am not sure if it's enough to put the thermistor (temperature probe of thermostat) directly at spindle body. Would that be enough? I am affraid, that motor windings will reach temperature faster than the body of spindle. I am not sure how well it conducts the heat from windings to body.

[mactec54]

I guess so. But i am not sure if it's enough to put the thermistor (temperature probe of thermostat) directly at spindle body. Would that be enough? I am affraid, that motor windings will reach temperature faster than the body of spindle. I am not sure how well it conducts the heat from windings to body.

That's is what I thought as well the winding will get to hot before the thermistor would turn on, if it was mounted externally, normally thermistors are mounted inside the motor, and are normally used to shut the motor down when it over heats

By correct positioning, thermistors can be located close to the thermally critical areas, or hot-spots, of the winding, where they closely track the copper temperature with a certain time lag, depending on the size of the thermistors and how well they are installed in the winding.

The Time lag may be to great in your case

The rated response temperature (RRT) of the thermistor is correctly selected for the class of insulation used on the winding. the thermistors are correctly located close to the thermally critical areas.
There is a low thermal resistance between the winding and the PTC thermistor. This depends on the electrical insulation between the winding and the thermistor. Since thermistors need to be isolated from high voltages, it is more difficult to achieve a low heat transfer resistance in HV motors, which have greater insulation thickness.

In these cases, to achieve complete protection, thermistors should be used in combination with electronic motor protection relays, which monitor the primary current drawn by the motor. this is where it gets even more complicated

So in reality it may not be as practical to use a thermistor, unless you are able to place and use them correctly

Did you try the Parameters setup I suggested

[phucrobusl]

Did you try the Parameters setup I suggested

PD052=07 (uniform frequency reach 2)

PD061=150Hz or adjust to get to the 8,000 rpm (uniform frequency 2)

PD062= the frequency range that you want it to be on or off, this may need to be set at max of 10Hz if to low it may cause switching on/off rapidly as the spindle RPMs will fluctuate, this may of been what you where seeing with the relays before

I just tried this and it acts basicaly same as with PD052=06; PD060=150, which i tried initialy. Only difference is that it acts on ramp down instead of ramp up. It just switches the relay for a while when stopping, instead of keeping it that way when running on 100 RPM.

[phucrobusl]

I think i've just partialy solved the issue by doing few more tests. Problem is that VFD documentation is not accurate. Documentation on PD052 options says this:

06: Uniform Frequency 1 Reach: The contact will act when the output frequency of the inverterreaches the designated frequency (PD060).
07: Uniform Frequency 2 reach: The contact will act when the output frequency of the inverterreaches the designated frequency (PD061).
08: In Accel: The contact will act when the inverter is in ramp-up.
09: In Decel: The contact will act when the inverter is in ramp-down.

But i've found that in reality these are implemented other way round:

06: In Accel: The contact will act when the inverter is in ramp-up.
07: In Decel: The contact will act when the inverter is in ramp-down.
08: Uniform Frequency 1 Reach: The contact will act when the output frequency of the inverter reaches the designated frequency (PD060).
09: Uniform Frequency 2 reach: The contact will act when the output frequency of the inverter reaches the designated frequency (PD061).

Documentation level: Chinese

So this somewhat solves my problem. Now i can set PD060 to detect whether spindle runs over 8000 RPMs. However i can't tell if it's running under 8000 RPMs or is stopped completely. But that can be probably solved by adding few more relays (if i don't find easier way to do it).

[mactec54]

I think i've just partialy solved the issue by doing few more tests. Problem is that VFD documentation is not accurate. Documentation on PD052 options says this:

06: Uniform Frequency 1 Reach: The contact will act when the output frequency of the inverterreaches the designated frequency (PD060).
07: Uniform Frequency 2 reach: The contact will act when the output frequency of the inverterreaches the designated frequency (PD061).
08: In Accel: The contact will act when the inverter is in ramp-up.
09: In Decel: The contact will act when the inverter is in ramp-down.

But i've found that in reality these are implemented other way round:

06: In Accel: The contact will act when the inverter is in ramp-up.
07: In Decel: The contact will act when the inverter is in ramp-down.
08: Uniform Frequency 1 Reach: The contact will act when the output frequency of the inverter reaches the designated frequency (PD060).
09: Uniform Frequency 2 reach: The contact will act when the output frequency of the inverter reaches the designated frequency (PD061).

So this somewhat solves my problem. Now i can set PD060 to detect whether spindle runs over 8000 RPMs. However i can't tell if it's running under 8000 RPMs or is stopped completely. But that can be probably solved by adding few more relays (if i don't find easier way to do it).

There is nothing wrong with the documentation, its having the right documentation

It would depend on what model VFD you have as to which way the Parameters are set, there are many variations not all manuals are correct for the VFD Drive you may have, You have to get the right manual that suits your VFD, what you are saying is correct, and not the other way round, here is a snip from one of there manuals

[phucrobusl]

You have to get the right manual that suits your VFD, what you are saying is correct, and not the other way round

How do i tell which Huanyang VFD model i have? Ebay seller does not provide any exact details and i have troubles figuring this out by myself. Is that written somehere on the unit?