For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?


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    Default For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    ok, so I waded through hours of pages and am shopping for an upgrade to my air cooled router/spindle. I'm thinking water cooled is fine, because I like quiet. Running Mach 3, typical cheap "mach 3" bob and decent drives on an old, but little used Isel cnc router.

    1.5kw (or so) spindle is all I need for now. Reading about the HY inverters, I'm not liking the workarounds and lower QA/QC. So, not wanting to spend a ton of money -what's the sweet spot for the next step up from the ebay HY combo's?

    I'm seeing good re: Bosch and Yasakawa, but I'm trying to stay below 250 usd on inverter. What's good? I don't mind buying separate, etc.

    Experience and knowledge most welcome.

    Chuck

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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Reading about the HY inverters, I'm not liking the workarounds
    What workarounds? The vast majority of users have zero problems with the genuine Huanyang VFD's. And most problems are self inflicted.

    Afaik, a better (more expensive) VFD won't really make much if any difference with these cheap spindles.
    If you want to spend 2.5x more, the Hitachi has been the most common for users in the US. Lots of Hitachi users here in the forums, including several in the last year.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    OK, fair enough- I'll admit I'm ignorant wrt spindles and inverters. I picked up that inverter/spindle control from Mach3 on the HY inverters isn't a plug and play affair, that you have to down load a patch to make the modbus work. However, I am completely ignorant and have never even touched an inverter. My Isel seems to be working fairly good now. The machine is not likely to get much of a workout. Like a few hours a week at most, so industrial quality is not necessary for my experimentation.

    So, is it possible to get an HY combo that works fairly straight forward and reliably? I don't mind minimal risk to realize savings-that's hobby risk management 101. However I'm not inclined to waste money either. That means I need to be able to id a real HY and just accept the spindle as disposable. As long as I'm able to get a reasonable amount of service as I learn, I'm ok. Then, it'll be a scratch built 4x8 2.5D router to cut up ply... That'll be higher end components.

    I really appreciate the feedback. I'll post my..."adventure" here as it unfolds for the next poor soul.



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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    The serial interface for HY is not a true Modbus, the latest manuals give alot more info than the first editions, and I found many of the latest have cleared up the Chinglish to a large degree..
    The Mach plugin version that I found worked was the one on the Mach forum written by Sebastien at Royaumedeole.com.
    I was involved in quite a few conversations with Seb and he gave me a great deal of info in the communication as I was using it for other purposes outside of Mach3.
    It is a nice way to control the HY however.



    The HY VFD's are fairly cheaply constructed and you will find much discrepancy among users, both on forums and utube, the H.S. spindles setups are the ones that have to be set up with care or burn outs can (and do) occur .
    Al.

    Last edited by Al_The_Man; 02-17-2018 at 01:59 PM.
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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    I picked up that inverter/spindle control from Mach3 on the HY inverters isn't a plug and play affair, that you have to down load a patch to make the modbus work
    There are multiple ways to control a spindle with Mach3.

    There is no patch to make Modbus work on a Huanyang, as their implementation is non-standard.
    There are two Huanyang Mach3 plugins that many people use, which are actually much easier to setup and use than regular modbus, as most of the setup is already done in the plugins.

    You can also use 0-10V analog to control the spindle, using either PWM or step/dir signals.

    This seller sells genuine Huanyang VFD's. You won't find a better deal than this.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-WATER-C...MAAOSwGUBaE6Fc

    As long as I'm able to get a reasonable amount of service as I learn, I'm ok.
    If you are looking for any kind of support, then you may want to look for a US seller like UGRA. but you'll need top spend 3x as much money for good support, and a real warranty.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    The beauty is you don't need a BOB or have to calibrate the PWM to analogue signal.
    You just send a RPM (frequency) over, and of course the other functions such as start/stop/estop etc.
    Al.

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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    While I just closed out a thread with me moaning about receiving a broken HY unit, the reality is that the seller is replacing it so, one way or another, I'll end up with a working VFD or my money back. I.e. The risk with them is manageable and, as Ger21 said, there are plenty of hobby users who run them without issue - which is why I decided to take a chance with one, even knowing that their QC is inconsistent.

    You have more low cost options that I did though. When I was shopping for mine, I saw plenty of deals on lower power units from good brands - especially if you buy used or import. For example, this Delta 1.5kw unit rated for 1ph 240v input is almost within your $250 target:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-1-5KW...YAAOSwu0hZdu1Z

    The question about whether the brand upgrade is worth it for a cheap Chinese spindle (or any spindle) is one I am still trying to figure out for myself (I am also new to CNC). I seem to get different answers depending who I ask and what day of the week it is....



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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post

    The question about whether the brand upgrade is worth it for a cheap Chinese spindle (or any spindle) is one I am still trying to figure out for myself (I am also new to CNC). I seem to get different answers depending who I ask and what day of the week it is....
    I have been installing VFD's of many makes for some decades now, and what your question, or more exactly your quandary illustrates is that you are buying something from a far eastern factory where there is no technical support team or qualified technical distributors.
    So here, you have only hearsay and anecdotal information from a multitude of sources such as other users when you run into trouble, this coupled with not the best of documentation.
    This is in Total contrast to ones traditionally supplied by N.A., European and Japanese suppliers, if you are in need of technical help or support, they are an email away.
    As someone with a technical background it is less of a risk for me to purchase a HY VFD for example, than someone who is just new to the game.
    This is the way I see the situation you are in.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    While I just closed out a thread with me moaning about receiving a broken HY unit, the reality is that the seller is replacing it so, one way or another, I'll end up with a working VFD or my money back. I.e. The risk with them is manageable and, as Ger21 said, there are plenty of hobby users who run them without issue - which is why I decided to take a chance with one, even knowing that their QC is inconsistent.

    You have more low cost options that I did though. When I was shopping for mine, I saw plenty of deals on lower power units from good brands - especially if you buy used or import. For example, this Delta 1.5kw unit rated for 1ph 240v input is almost within your $250 target:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-1-5KW...YAAOSwu0hZdu1Z

    The question about whether the brand upgrade is worth it for a cheap Chinese spindle (or any spindle) is one I am still trying to figure out for myself (I am also new to CNC). I seem to get different answers depending who I ask and what day of the week it is....
    With all the input you have had from lots of people, you still don't get what is needed, A 1.5Kw VFD used on single phase is not suitable for a 1.5Kw spindle, the VFD Drive has to have a higher Hp rating than the spindle, for a reliable spindle drive setup, this is for a single phase user only

    Lots are buying them the same size, and blame the poor quality of the VFD drives for not lasting very long, but they all fail it does not matter what brand they are if they are over stressed electronic components will fail

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    OK, a little background- I'm pretty technically adept with a strong engineering and programming background and some electronics experience. I don't have a problem researching and studying to figure these things out. Got this far and understand that any cheap eBay purchase comes without support. That's the price you pay. I can accept that risk. I'm adverse to saving a few bucks (let's say 100 for sake of argument) in exchange for quality though. I'm ok with and fully understand this "gig". I've also waded through numerous tribulations of neophytes with the cheapest they can get. I appreciate local support, no doubt but I need to fully understand this on my own - kind of stubborn like that.

    However, the Delta and Yasakawa seem to have appeal since there's a sense of quality and of ease of setup, with perhaps more of a safety buffer when loading components to their limit, if that makes sense. It's likely borne out of advertising, who knows...

    OK to Gerry's point - all I'm interested in is turning the spindle off and on and controlling the speed. I have a break out board working already (the standard mach 3 one you buy several of because they're cheap)., which has the pin outs for spindle control and speed. Something that was cleared up is that I didn't realize I didn't need the modbus connection-beginner ignorance.

    So, if it is easy to hook the VFD up to a BOB outside of the modbus communication link, then why do it?
    Secondly, the Delta linked was about $218- I'm ok with that tag if it's worth the difference. Also, to Mactec's point-I'd easily trade motor power for reliability and this answers my next question about the investment -why not buy as much single phase inverter I can? I'm leaning towards the equivalent of the 2.2kw inverter (I get I'll actually be matching amps) matched to the 1.5kw sized spindle. Yup- I only have single phase to my house...

    Does this sound like a generically sound path?



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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    So, if it is easy to hook the VFD up to a BOB outside of the modbus communication link, then why do it?
    I think mainly because it's just easier, but I've listed a few reasons below.

    1) $10 breakout boards with analog speed control are a fairly recent phenomenon. A few years ago, you'd need to add a $40-$70 speed control board to the $100 breakout board you already had to use analog speed control.

    2) I don't think very many people actually use straight modbus to control their spindles. Most people use the Mach3 plugins I mentioned earlier. These are much easier to configure than modbus, and require only a cheap and simple RS-485 adapter.

    3) In some cases, Modbus just works better.
    When I got my Huanyang VFD, I immediately wired it up for analog control from my breakout board. While it controlled the speed, I was seeing the RPM fluctuate by ±1000rpm. I found a few others that saw the same result with the Huanyang VFD. It seems to be noise causing the issue. I was able to get it a bit more stable by adding some capacitors, but still not perfect.
    So I bought a $8 RS-485 adapter, switched to a Huanyang plugin, and now get perfect RPM control.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckC View Post
    OK, a little background- I'm pretty technically adept with a strong engineering and programming background and some electronics experience. I don't have a problem researching and studying to figure these things out. Got this far and understand that any cheap eBay purchase comes without support. That's the price you pay. I can accept that risk. I'm adverse to saving a few bucks (let's say 100 for sake of argument) in exchange for quality though. I'm ok with and fully understand this "gig". I've also waded through numerous tribulations of neophytes with the cheapest they can get. I appreciate local support, no doubt but I need to fully understand this on my own - kind of stubborn like that.

    However, the Delta and Yasakawa seem to have appeal since there's a sense of quality and of ease of setup, with perhaps more of a safety buffer when loading components to their limit, if that makes sense. It's likely borne out of advertising, who knows...

    OK to Gerry's point - all I'm interested in is turning the spindle off and on and controlling the speed. I have a break out board working already (the standard mach 3 one you buy several of because they're cheap)., which has the pin outs for spindle control and speed. Something that was cleared up is that I didn't realize I didn't need the modbus connection-beginner ignorance.

    So, if it is easy to hook the VFD up to a BOB outside of the modbus communication link, then why do it?
    Secondly, the Delta linked was about $218- I'm ok with that tag if it's worth the difference. Also, to Mactec's point-I'd easily trade motor power for reliability and this answers my next question about the investment -why not buy as much single phase inverter I can? I'm leaning towards the equivalent of the 2.2kw inverter (I get I'll actually be matching amps) matched to the 1.5kw sized spindle. Yup- I only have single phase to my house...

    Does this sound like a generically sound path?
    You are on the right path for sure, it makes a difference when the user understands what the difference is, when you have to size a VFD Drive and spindle motor, for single phase use, be careful where you buy the Delta drive if you get one, as there have been some quality problems with them as well, almost all VFD drives are manufactured in China, other countries also manufacture the same Brand name VFD Drives as well, this is where there can be a difference in quality, it also depends on how big the name of the company is as well, if they care about quality or sales

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Almost all VFD drives are manufactured in China,
    That is a wide and sweeping statement that doesn't hold up or make sense.
    The Japanese, and most EU origin VFD's do Not, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Telemecanique etc just to name a few, many more too many to mention..
    Again I stress not only quality, but just as important is Tech support on the end of a phone (or email).,
    Al.

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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    That is a wide and sweeping statement that doesn't hold up or make sense.
    The Japanese, and most EU origin VFD's do Not, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Telemecanique etc just to name a few, many more too many to mention..
    Again I stress not only quality, but just as important is Tech support on the end of a phone (or email).,
    Al.
    It not only holds up, you are misinformed, Mitsubishi and Hitachi, both have manufacturing in China and Taiwan as does the number one in the world Yaskawa and many other major brand names

    Tech support is only as good as the person on the end of the phone, there was a good example of this with a Zone member only a week or two ago, brought a Danfoss VFD ( a very good high quality VFD Drive ) and there tech support could not help him set it up, they helped with the basic setup, which did not get him going

    Do you know the reason why they could not help him

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    That's odd.
    The Mitsubishi Inverters and CNC systems I use come out of the Nagoya Works factory .
    MITSUBISHI ELECTRIC News Releases Mitsubishi Electric to Build New Production Facility for Factory Automation Equipment at Nagoya Works
    They VFD's have 5yr warranty, and come with a 200 page manual.!!
    I have access to a (highly) technical support team a phone call away, both in Chicago and Canada.

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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    That's odd.
    The Mitsubishi Inverters and CNC systems I use come out of the Nagoya Works factory .
    MITSUBISHI ELECTRIC News Releases Mitsubishi Electric to Build New Production Facility for Factory Automation Equipment at Nagoya Works
    They VFD's have 5yr warranty, and come with a 200 page manual.!!
    I have access to a (highly) technical support team a phone call away, both in Chicago and Canada.
    That's what you pay for, Technical support and service, not many Hobby builder are going to look twice at the expensive VFD Drives, I have around 45 in stock that start at $600 to $3,200, sold 4 last month @ $2,850-00 each

    All the major brand names have Great Technical support, in most countries, not just the USA and Canada, it does not matter where they are manufactured, it's how the companies quality and structure is setup, that's all that counts, all of these companies have manufacturing in many different country's, who would of though BMW small car engines would be made in China, along with hundreds of other BMW parts

    You can get this Mitsubishi VFD below for $143 us manufactured in Shanghai this factory can manufacture 30,000 units per year, this does not look like the current units, but is a 380v model

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?-vfd-china-jpg  
    Last edited by mactec54; 02-18-2018 at 01:42 PM. Reason: Add more content
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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    My main objection is being accused of being miss-informed,
    Also I can buy Telemecanique Push Buttons and switches from China marked as the originals at one tenth the price.
    But they are not affiliated with Telemecanique or Group Shnieder.
    According to the blurb, the VFD is made by Ideei?
    I will contact Mitsubishi and see what they say.

    Last edited by Al_The_Man; 02-18-2018 at 02:17 PM.
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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    I have been installing VFD's of many makes for some decades now, and what your question, or more exactly your quandary illustrates is that you are buying something from a far eastern factory where there is no technical support team or qualified technical distributors.
    So here, you have only hearsay and anecdotal information from a multitude of sources such as other users when you run into trouble, this coupled with not the best of documentation.
    This is in Total contrast to ones traditionally supplied by N.A., European and Japanese suppliers, if you are in need of technical help or support, they are an email away.
    As someone with a technical background it is less of a risk for me to purchase a HY VFD for example, than someone who is just new to the game.
    This is the way I see the situation you are in.
    Al.
    I can't argue with any of that. It is certainly true that when you pay a lot more, you should expect to get better support. My shopping experience buying my spindle from PDS was far more enjoyable than commicating in broken English with the Chinese eBay vendor for my VFD.

    That isn't really what I meant though. The question is, assuming you received a working unit (and you know how to use it) what actual performance benefit would one notice (if any) between a spindle driven by a $200 HY VFD and the same spindle driven by a $1500 Yaskawa? That's where answers vary massively.

    Wiring up a VFD and setting parameters is really not that difficult once you find clear instructions. The hardest part for me was working through the conflicting advice. Not everyone offering advice on forums is actually knowledgible on this stuff. Many think they know more than they do. I am just starting to learn who here I should listen to and which people's posts it is best to just skip to avoid wasted time...

    I am finding that a lot of the conflicting and confusing advice is eliminated once you ignore the posts from one or two individuals who hurt more than they help.

    The point is that, personally, I can live without good support if the hardware works. I think there might be more to it though. It wasn't immediately obvious what benefits there were with a Colombo or PDS spindle over a $200 Chinese one. Most of the vendors did not know (beyond the generic "it's better quality" comments). It took me many hours of reading before I understood it properly. My guess is that if I spent a similar amount of time researching VFDs, I would find some tangible benefits with the brand name hardware (above and beyond support).



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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    The question is, assuming you received a working unit (and you know how to use it) what actual performance benefit would one notice (if any) between a spindle driven by a $200 HY VFD and the same spindle driven by a $1500 Yaskawa?
    I think it depends a lot on the specific motor you are using.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    You don't have to buy a $1500 Yaskawa, there are many good quality drives out there for much less...



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