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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    I can really relate to Goemon's position- I am, whether unfortunate or not used to the method of on-line research to figure out my product issues and have had to learn how to discern between online posters as best I can. It's an unfortunate development of American society in some retail. So, I'm left with trying to gamble on quality versus price, looking for which model has the most viable/use-able on line info. from users having gone before.

    The big names have the advantage of accurate documentation and usually better QC, as they worry more about reputation, no matter country of origin.

    So what VFD's are out there, new that are less than, let's say $300 that can handle a 1.5kw spindle with a comfortable safety margin? I get HY-keeping in mind I'm going to be doing only simple on-off, speed control (that I know of), cutting wood and maybe 6061, T-6 aluminum.

    Thanks for the banter, guys. It does help.

    BTW, this isn't the only industry that's switching to mostly on-line, community support (I guess that's really old news). The drag is, it takes a whole ton of work on the consumer side to figure out electronic set up and it's not constrained to Chinese products. I've got a wonderful, Czech. RC radio that cost a bit over $1500, but the manual is only basic and doesn't touch 1/10th the programming capabilities that are about required to fly very complicated high end RC jets (one of my other hobbies). Therefore, I've spent some 100+ hours on line scratching through what should have been about a 20 hour straight forward study session. It's just how it is. I am wonderfully amazed by that manufacturer, with-brilliant engineers (Jeti).

    So, knowing the above, where should we be for less than $300? Gotta be single phase, prefer 220v and probably around 2.2 kw capacity driving somewhere around 1.5 kw spindle. That's with future speed and work space in mind. If I could get a smoking deal (read high, name brand) on a smaller (sub 1 kw) spindle and VFD, then I'm open to to purchasing twice. My Isel only has a 12"x12"x3" functional work space inside the soft limits. Smaller may be more appropriate. Running very high quality ball screws and decent steppers, though I have upgrades standing by, should that be needed.



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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckC View Post
    I can really relate to Goemon's position- I am, whether unfortunate or not used to the method of on-line research to figure out my product issues and have had to learn how to discern between online posters as best I can. It's an unfortunate development of American society in some retail. So, I'm left with trying to gamble on quality versus price, looking for which model has the most viable/use-able on line info. from users having gone before.

    The big names have the advantage of accurate documentation and usually better QC, as they worry more about reputation, no matter country of origin.

    So what VFD's are out there, new that are less than, let's say $300 that can handle a 1.5kw spindle with a comfortable safety margin? I get HY-keeping in mind I'm going to be doing only simple on-off, speed control (that I know of), cutting wood and maybe 6061, T-6 aluminum.

    Thanks for the banter, guys. It does help.

    BTW, this isn't the only industry that's switching to mostly on-line, community support (I guess that's really old news). The drag is, it takes a whole ton of work on the consumer side to figure out electronic set up and it's not constrained to Chinese products. I've got a wonderful, Czech. RC radio that cost a bit over $1500, but the manual is only basic and doesn't touch 1/10th the programming capabilities that are about required to fly very complicated high end RC jets (one of my other hobbies). Therefore, I've spent some 100+ hours on line scratching through what should have been about a 20 hour straight forward study session. It's just how it is. I am wonderfully amazed by that manufacturer, with-brilliant engineers (Jeti).

    So, knowing the above, where should we be for less than $300? Gotta be single phase, prefer 220v and probably around 2.2 kw capacity driving somewhere around 1.5 kw spindle. That's with future speed and work space in mind. If I could get a smoking deal (read high, name brand) on a smaller (sub 1 kw) spindle and VFD, then I'm open to to purchasing twice. My Isel only has a 12"x12"x3" functional work space inside the soft limits. Smaller may be more appropriate. Running very high quality ball screws and decent steppers, though I have upgrades standing by, should that be needed.
    There is an 800w spindle, with a 1Kw VFD, gives you lots of options, if you wanted smaller, won't be as good as a 1.5Kw ( although you can cut aluminum with a Dremel, will just depend what you want to achieve ) considering your machine size, the 1.5Kw if you can fit it Ok, would be transferable if you where to build a bigger machine at anytime

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckC View Post
    I can really relate to Goemon's position-n. It's an unfortunate development of American society in some retail. So, I'm left with trying to gamble on quality versus price, looking for which model has the most viable/use-able on line info. from users having gone before.

    The big names have the advantage of accurate documentation and usually better QC, as they worry more about reputation, no matter country of origin.
    .
    The thing to remember here is that although the subject is the same or similar, the designated market is completely different for CNC and control related products.
    There is the Industrial Production world and the DIY area.
    Those such as Mitsubishi and Fanuc are aiming for the world dominance and acceptance of their CNC/Industrial systems and thier potential customers want highly technical support with training options and comprehensive manuals etc.
    For example, Mitsubishi has offices in just about every country, with tech support via email or phone, this all cost money.
    These companies are not aiming thier products at the DIY world.
    Whether it is worth paying a premium price or not it for a DIY,er is usually just a simple question of economics.
    My personnal opinion after testing and/or reviewing the lower-end versions, I would tend to opt for Hitachi.
    I have had good response from thier Technical dept when needed.
    .
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    [QUOTE=Al_The_Man;2153366]That is a wide and sweeping statement that doesn't hold up or make sense.[QUOTE]

    I responded to what you posted

    [QUOTE=Al_The_Man;2153366]My main objection is being accused of being miss-informed,:confused [QUOTE]

    The point is these manufactures are in China, making what ever they can work for them, it's something everyone has to get used to when you are going to buy something, they can and do make some very good products, and those that are not so good strive to get better, they are all looking for the same thing market share

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?-mitsubshi-vfd-png  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    So, knowing the above, where should we be for less than $300?
    Automation Direct GS1 and GS2, which I believe are actually Delta drives.

    https://www.automationdirect.com/adc..._VAC)/GS1-22P0

    https://www.automationdirect.com/adc..._VAC)/GS2-22P0


    Hitachi

    https://www.driveswarehouse.com/NES1-015SB-P21653.aspx

    https://www.driveswarehouse.com/WJ200-015LF-P21542.aspx

    Gerry

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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Now we're talking! Name brand, going to be in Dallas in a few weeks anyway and it's a name brand. Actually, I'd/am going to spring for a little larger for $245 and get the 2.2 kw rated one.

    Thanks-that's actually exactly where I wanted to be. Funny thing-I think we use those (Hitachi) to control some fan motors at work...

    Perfect. Now, spindles...



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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    So what search terms do you use to find these? Or, how'd you search? Seems I'm missing some info. to get to this point.

    Again, much appreciated!



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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckC View Post
    So what search terms do you use to find these?
    Are you referring to Hitachi? If so a simple Google brings up many links?
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Yeah - for me, not as direct - lots and lots of spam advertising on top of anything meaningful for the search.

    But - we're there - thanks again guys - will do my best to pay it forward.

    Chuck



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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckC View Post
    So what search terms do you use to find these? Or, how'd you search? Seems I'm missing some info. to get to this point.

    Again, much appreciated!

    I didn't search. I just posted what everybody here uses. At least those in the US.

    Gerry

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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    I think it depends a lot on the specific motor you are using.

    Do you mean that you would be more likely to see benefits of a quality VFD if you have invested in a high end spindle? Or do you mean that the VFD effects performance more with certain types of spindle? E.g. The vector drives being of more benefit to low speed / high torque milling heads than high speed router spindles.



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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Just a guess, but probably the latter. I don't think a better VFD will make much difference at all on a $200 2.2Kw spindle.

    Gerry

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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Uh, good point...however FYI -my motivation (personally) isn't performance as it is ease of setup, standardization and quality. I have wondered if those vector VFDs have any utility with a cheap spindle. Can't imagine you'd have a lot to work with, but since I'm only worried about power and capacity to cut wood, mostly I'm just interested in buying a little more quality.

    BTW, is there such thing as a quality spindle between 750 and 1500 watts that's sub-$200?



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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    ChuckC, if you have programming and engineering background you should go directly to Modbus if you decide to buy a Modbus capable unit, or RS485 via plugin if you decide to buy a HY. The two wires + shield necessary for RS485 is miles better than the 0-10V speed control and all the extra wires necessary to control the spindle. I also think that it is better to buy quality VFD and cheap spindle for several reasons.

    • Electrical safety
    • Support
    • Better quality regarding functionality
    • Higher reliability
    • Quality manual and user guide you understand
    • Built according to the specifications (meaning for example that 1.5kW is 1.5kW so you don't need a more powerful VFD to drive a 1.5kW motor)
    • ...and so on.

    Those are some of the reasons. I went for one from Bosch, which I am controlling via Modbus and it has been running reliably ever since I unpacked the box. If I will ever replace it it will still not be a HY but another Bosch, Hitachi, ABB, Schneider or some other REAL brand with similar qualities. I think it is a component worth spending some extra money on. Just for fun, I connected to 0-10V when I bought it, but as Gerry said, it was fluctuating, the speed control curve was not linear, and I felt it was VERY unreliable. I know there are quality D/A controllers also on the market, but hey, why spend time and money on that when Modbus is available and gives you 100% reliability and accuracy.

    Last edited by A_Camera; 02-23-2018 at 03:15 AM.
    https://www.youtube.com/c/AdaptingCamera/videos
    https://adapting-camera.blogspot.com


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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckC View Post
    Uh, good point...however FYI -my motivation (personally) isn't performance as it is ease of setup, standardization and quality. I have wondered if those vector VFDs have any utility with a cheap spindle. Can't imagine you'd have a lot to work with, but since I'm only worried about power and capacity to cut wood, mostly I'm just interested in buying a little more quality.

    BTW, is there such thing as a quality spindle between 750 and 1500 watts that's sub-$200?
    The vector VFDs does not see the spindle and can not see if it is a cheap or expensive one. The utility is the same, regardless of spindle motor. Remember that a 3 phase brushless motor is electrically very simple, so no special utility is needed. I think the difference between quality motors and cheap eBay versions is in the mechanical parts, bearings and runout. There is really not much that can be improved electrically, with the exception of earth connection, which is missing in most cheap eBay motors, so you have to fix/check that in every cheap motor. My VFD is a Bosch Rexroth EFC5610 and it is a sensorless vector control type, which works well with the eBay spindle I have.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/AdaptingCamera/videos
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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    That is a wide and sweeping statement that doesn't hold up or make sense.
    The Japanese, and most EU origin VFD's do Not, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Telemecanique etc just to name a few, many more too many to mention..
    Again I stress not only quality, but just as important is Tech support on the end of a phone (or email).,
    Al.
    Mine, even though it is a Bosch blue, is Made in China. That means NOTHING today. It came with a very comprehensive quick guide manual (definitely more than enough to get started) and there is a 500 pages manual for download in many languages. Support is world wide, but where they are located is nothing I care much about, though I know they have support also in Sweden since I happened to have been in touch with them regarding some other things. I have several Bosch pro tools and a house full of other Bosch electrical appliances, and yes, some are made in Europe, but most of the tools are made in China or other low wage places. Made in China is no longer a negative quality stamp, it depends on the brand name how thy control the quality.

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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    BTW, is there such thing as a quality spindle between 750 and 1500 watts that's sub-$200?
    Anything I would consider to be "quality", would be non chinese, and $1000 and up.
    If you want cheaper, then maybe one of these:
    GMT Air Cooled CNC Spindle 0.8 kW 220 V 24000 RPM S | Air Cooled Spindles

    Gerry

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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by A_Camera View Post
    ChuckC, if you have programming and engineering background you should go directly to Modbus if you decide to buy a Modbus capable unit, or RS485 via plugin if you decide to buy a HY. The two wires + shield necessary for RS485 is miles better than the 0-10V speed control and all the extra wires necessary to control the spindle. I also think that it is better to buy quality VFD and cheap spindle for several reasons.

    • Electrical safety
    • Support
    • Better quality regarding functionality
    • Higher reliability
    • Quality manual and user guide you understand
    • Built according to the specifications (meaning for example that 1.5kW is 1.5kW so you don't need a more powerful VFD to drive a 1.5kW motor)
    • ...and so on.

    Those are some of the reasons. I went for one from Bosch, which I am controlling via Modbus and it has been running reliably ever since I unpacked the box. If I will ever replace it it will still not be a HY but another Bosch, Hitachi, ABB, Schneider or some other REAL brand with similar qualities. I think it is a component worth spending some extra money on. Just for fun, I connected to 0-10V when I bought it, but as Gerry said, it was fluctuating, the speed control curve was not linear, and I felt it was VERY unreliable. I know there are quality D/A controllers also on the market, but hey, why spend time and money on that when Modbus is available and gives you 100% reliability and accuracy.
    Something to make clear, it is always better if the VFD Drive has a larger capacity than the Spindle Motor or Motor being driven, this does not matter what the quality of the VFD Drive is, Single Phase powered VFD Drives are more subject to fail if using the same size Kw rating as the Spindle or Motor being driven, Single Phase connection VFD Drives are more stressed, than a 3Ph Drive doing the same job, manufacturers will recommend this also

    Usually when someone has a problem with PWM 0-10v control is they don't have / use a shielded cable for the VFD to Breakout Board connections, those that do normally have not problems, fluctuating is a sign of noise from using an unshielded wires or incorrect termination of the Shield, most photos you see connections for PWM with just plain wire, this is a fail because of the noise from and around the VFD

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Something to make clear, it is always better if the VFD Drive has a larger capacity than the Spindle Motor or Motor being driven, this does not matter what the quality of the VFD Drive is, Single Phase powered VFD Drives are more subject to fail if using the same size Kw rating as the Spindle or Motor being driven, Single Phase connection VFD Drives are more stressed, than a 3Ph Drive doing the same job, manufacturers will recommend this also

    Usually when someone has a problem with PWM 0-10v control is they don't have / use a shielded cable for the VFD to Breakout Board connections, those that do normally have not problems, fluctuating is a sign of noise from using an unshielded wires or incorrect termination of the Shield, most photos you see connections for PWM with just plain wire, this is a fail because of the noise from and around the VFD
    There is only one reason to buy a more powerful VFD than the motor, that is to give you the possibility to change the motor to a more powerful one if you feel you need it at a later stage. That is assuming your VFD fulfils it's specifications. It has nothing to do with single phase or three phase mains.

    The 0-10V issue I was talking about has NOTHING to do with screened or not screened cables. The cheap BoBs don't have a liner output voltage and because the D/A circuitry is a pretty simple one, the voltage is fluctuating. In an ideal world 25% pulse wide should give 2.5V out, 50% should give 5.0V and 100% should result in 10.0V but this is NOT the case, and the deviation is not linear. I measured this at the output of course, not just watched the spindle RPM meter.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/AdaptingCamera/videos
    https://adapting-camera.blogspot.com


  20. #40
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    Default Re: For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?

    I have to agree with everything that A-Camera said. Most failures on drives are related to improper input power protection and improper installation/ventilation.
    As long as you stick to the manufacturers instruction you should not have any issues.
    I have seen/experienced ABB, Siemens, Yaskawa, Weg, Danfoss etc fail due to improper installation or protection.

    That said....any electronic component inside the drive can fail. However from my experience cheap electronic devices from China usually fail in similar ways. This is due to improper design. I fix electronic cards and have found this often.



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For an advanced hobbiest -Which inverter/spindle?