Motors making funny noise when idling


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    Default Motors making funny noise when idling

    Hi guys,

    I posted this in the CNC Router Parts forum but I'm wondering if maybe this is the better place to post.

    I emailed CNCRP yesterday morning to see if they had anything to say and haven't heard back yet so I thought I'd post here as well. I finished building the CPR 4x2 Standard machine, NEMA 23 motors. I did the DIY kit (wiring this kind of stuff up doesn't bother me) with the MX4660 and an ethernet smoothstepper. Everything works wonderfully. Just for fun I set the rapids to 1000ipm and the machine handled it no problem. I have run a few different short jobs already with no issues at all cutting at 250-350ipm. Absolutely amazing to watch.

    My question is when the motors aren't running on a job and they're just idling. I filmed the noise so you can hear what is going on, see the video below and be sure to turn up the volume so you can hear the noises. It sounds like the motors are kinda turning off and then back on again really quick. But I don't notice any ill effects so I'm hoping this is a normal function of either the MX4660 or the Ethernet Smoothstepper.



    What do you guys think? Safe, or did I get something sort of faulty?

    Thanks!

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    Default Re: Motors making funny noise when idling

    No video link?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Sterob View Post
    No video link?
    That’s weird, I thought I added the video link. Here’s the video, be sure to turn the volume way up!

    https://youtu.be/AIR8RF3kLVA



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    Default Re: Motors making funny noise when idling

    That's strange, but I have no idea what it could be.

    Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    That's strange, but I have no idea what it could be.
    I don’t seem to be losing any positioning so maybe I shouldn’t be concerned about it. Maybe it’s a windows 10 glitch? I don’t really even know how to describe the noise.



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    Default Re: Motors making funny noise when idling

    My first thought was noise. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to it....seems a bit random.
    Maybe have ONE axis connected at a time and try to find out out which axis, or how many are doing it.
    Mount a dial indicator on the machine and see if there is any movement corresponding with the noise..

    I'm not familar with these machines, but I like what I see. Maybe re-check your earthing. Is everything earthed to the same point?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Sterob View Post
    My first thought was noise. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to it....seems a bit random.
    Maybe have ONE axis connected at a time and try to find out out which axis, or how many are doing it.
    Mount a dial indicator on the machine and see if there is any movement corresponding with the noise..

    I'm not familar with these machines, but I like what I see. Maybe re-check your earthing. Is everything earthed to the same point?
    I’ll get in there with a dial gauge on Monday...no time tomorrow. Will I damage the controller if I unplug motors and plug them back in while the driver is powered on?

    Regarding the ground point...I believe everything is grounded to the same point but I’m not sure. I just followed the directions for the electronics. There isn’t a dedicated ground wire attached to the machine anywhere. I don’t have any limit/proximity switches so disregard that portion if anyone decides to look at these instruction.

    http://www.cncrouterparts.com/cad/2016Q1/CRP250-00E_Wiring_and_Prox_Switch_Instructions_v2016Q1_1. pdf

    I am assuming things are correctly grounded but perhaps not? I noticed that the black lead from the motor connection doesn’t get used, I don’t suppose this would be a ground line? If I’m missing a ground somewhere I’d definitely like to get that straightened out!



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    Default Re: Motors making funny noise when idling

    Quote Originally Posted by canman77 View Post
    I’ll get in there with a dial gauge on Monday...no time tomorrow. Will I damage the controller if I unplug motors and plug them back in while the driver is powered on?
    I suggest you don't do that. Turn the power off each time time want to plug or unplug something. No point pushing your luck.



    Quote Originally Posted by canman77 View Post
    I am assuming things are correctly grounded but perhaps not? I noticed that the black lead from the motor connection doesn’t get used, I don’t suppose this would be a ground line? If I’m missing a ground somewhere I’d definitely like to get that straightened out!
    Maybe opost a couple of clear pics.
    Are your motor cables screened? Screening is very particular.
    One should earth ONE end of the screen UNLESS its a motor cable to a VFD, then one must earth BOTH ends.

    What sort of VFD are you using?

    Its just a matter of checking everything and not assuming anything.... You may fix things that have no effect.....you may change several things and NOT know if any had any effect and your problem may dissappear.
    Its witchery.....



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    Quote Originally Posted by Sterob View Post
    I suggest you don't do that. Turn the power off each time time want to plug or unplug something. No point pushing your luck.

    Maybe opost a couple of clear pics.
    Are your motor cables screened? Screening is very particular.
    One should earth ONE end of the screen UNLESS its a motor cable to a VFD, then one must earth BOTH ends.

    What sort of VFD are you using?

    Its just a matter of checking everything and not assuming anything.... You may fix things that have no effect.....you may change several things and NOT know if any had any effect and your problem may dissappear.
    Its witchery.....
    I’ll try and post some pics tomorrow. What specifically do you want pictures of?

    So, VFD. Not using one, I’m going simple here and using the Hitachi M12VC. Plenty of power for what I’m doing.

    These are the motor cables I’m using: http://www.cncrouterparts.com/cnc-motor-cable-p-45.html

    It appears they are shielded, l assume that’s the same as screened. But you know what they say about making assumptions. What I don’t know is if one end is tied to ground or not, since I didn’t build the cables myself. I read through the cable description in the link but I didn’t see anything about that.

    Thanks for all the help, and sorry I won’t be of much use until tomorrow...I hate to drag you along here for longer than necessary!



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    Default Re: Motors making funny noise when idling

    Will I damage the controller if I unplug motors and plug them back in while the driver is powered on?
    Yes, instantly. Do NOT do that.

    Can you try plugging the system into a different circuit in your house? It could be a bad ground.

    Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Yes, instantly. Do NOT do that.

    Can you try plugging the system into a different circuit in your house? It could be a bad ground.
    I can for sure plug into a different circuit! I will add that to the list of to-do’s tomorrow. For what it’s worth, I’m currently set up so the dust collector is the only machine running on the garage 20amp circuit. I run an extension cord inside to a regular 15a circuit for the CNC machine power, and then I run another cord to a different 20a circuit for the hitachi. Would this configuration cause any obvious problems?

    So I’m still wondering if the MX4660 is maybe a little faulty. Is it pretty clear when you have a faulty unit? I’d think if it was damaged somehow, or if a motor cable got unplugged on accident and caused damage, it wouldn’t drive the motor anymore. Is it possible that something came unplugged while I was in the “testing the machine” phase and damaged the driver, causing these little noises, or would the damage be more catastrophic?



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    Default Re: Motors making funny noise when idling

    I am experiencing the same thing with my MX4660 driver. I have seen it on 3 of my 4 motors / drives. The 3 motors it happens to are the X1 / X2 / Y, never the Z. The motors for my X / Y axes are all the same, and the Z is a different motor with different power settings. The affected motors are HobbyCNC 305 oz/in steppers wired in bipolar (I think they're set at 2.8 amps, which is low for what they want).

    Interestingly, when it happens to one of the X axis motors, it will happen to the other X axis motor as well (I don't think I have seen it happen with just one, they always start going together), and the noise will oscillate between them every ~5s or so (one motor will make a noise, then the other slaved motor will make a noise). I have never seen it happen to both the Y axis and the X axis at the same time. I am using LinuxCNC, so the signal / direction pins in the parallel port for X1 / X2 / Y are different physically. It seems like if it was caused by the cable, it would affect all 3 motors. Since the X happens together, that kind of makes me think it's LinuxCNC / the computer doing something weird (different drivers for X axis).

    If I move the machine around, the noise will stop (at least temporarily). It seems like if they are idle for a minute or so after moving them, it will start happening.

    I will dig a bit deeper tomorrow if anyone has ideas of how to troubleshoot further - I don't have an oscilloscope so I won't be able to trace too heavily into the signals to determine what's happening, but I might be able to borrow one from somewhere.

    I recently got my machine all set up and wired, so it might not be a new issue for the driver - it may have always been there I just never noticed / paid attention to the noise, but I did move all the cabling around and ran a new outlet for the machine.

    Edit: Rereading this post, it seems like the only thing that this could be would be a grounding issue or something specific to the MX4660. Maybe something to test to isolate those two things would be to turn on the on-board charge pump on the driver and see if the noise occurs, then if it does, disconnect the parallel port from the computer and see if it continues happening. If it does, the MX4660 is to blame, if it stops, then it is likely a grounding issue.

    Last edited by mercurysinking; 09-10-2018 at 12:27 AM.


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    Default Re: Motors making funny noise when idling

    Quote Originally Posted by mercurysinking View Post

    Edit: Rereading this post, it seems like the only thing that this could be would be a grounding issue or something specific to the MX4660. Maybe something to test to isolate those two things would be to turn on the on-board charge pump on the driver and see if the noise occurs, then if it does, disconnect the parallel port from the computer and see if it continues happening. If it does, the MX4660 is to blame, if it stops, then it is likely a grounding issue.
    So two things. One, your post tells me that it likely is not my smoothstepper that is causing the issue.

    Two. I’m pretty dumb...how do you activate the on-board charge pump? Is there a switch on there to turn it on? Or does it need to be wired into Mach3 somehow..?



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    Default Re: Motors making funny noise when idling

    The charge pump controls when the motors are enabled - the MX4660 needs a signal to enable the stepper drivers, but it provides a dip switch to generate the signal internally vs from the parallel port. My drive has plastic partially covering it, so it was difficult to move the switch when I enabled it previously. See page 11 of the manual - http://www.leadshineusa.com/UploadFi...660hm_V1.1.pdf. You will want to turn the dip switch on to generate the signal internally, then the drives will still be enabled when the parallel port is removed from the equation.

    I don't think anything bad will happen if you remove the parallel port while the drives are enabled (might want someone else to chime in before you do it), the step / dir pins and any outputs you have will be disconnected (limit switches won't be respected, so if it did move you'd want to be close to the estop / be able to pull the plug). I haven't used a smoothstepper, but maybe disconnecting the ethernet from the computer would be better vs. removing parallel from the driver.


    From this post: Consistent stepper clunking. All axis' all the time, an older computer solved the issue. What kind of computer are you using? I'm using an Optiplex 380.



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    Default Re: Motors making funny noise when idling

    Kinda sounds like maybe the current reduction is kicking in and out.??
    Can you disable the auto current reduction?

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Motors making funny noise when idling

    Doesn't look like automatic current reduction can be disabled on the MX4660.



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    Quote Originally Posted by mercurysinking View Post
    The charge pump controls when the motors are enabled - the MX4660 needs a signal to enable the stepper drivers, but it provides a dip switch to generate the signal internally vs from the parallel port. My drive has plastic partially covering it, so it was difficult to move the switch when I enabled it previously. See page 11 of the manual - http://www.leadshineusa.com/UploadFi...660hm_V1.1.pdf. You will want to turn the dip switch on to generate the signal internally, then the drives will still be enabled when the parallel port is removed from the equation.

    I don't think anything bad will happen if you remove the parallel port while the drives are enabled (might want someone else to chime in before you do it), the step / dir pins and any outputs you have will be disconnected (limit switches won't be respected, so if it did move you'd want to be close to the estop / be able to pull the plug). I haven't used a smoothstepper, but maybe disconnecting the ethernet from the computer would be better vs. removing parallel from the driver.


    From this post: Consistent stepper clunking. All axis' all the time, an older computer solved the issue. What kind of computer are you using? I'm using an Optiplex 380.
    So for simplicity’s sake, it sounds like I could just turn the power on for the driver, and then watch and see if the jittery stuff happens with/without the charge pump enabled. I don’t see a reason to have anything plugged into the computer...it should happen regardless, if the problem does reside on the MX4660 right?

    I’m running an Acer laptop with Windows 10. Smoothstepper makes this work perfectly fine, but I’m looking into using a mini PC instead. Less bulky, easier to mount somewhere inconspicuous.

    One thing I also noticed in the manual that you linked to is the “smoother” switch, which says it can reduce erratic and jittery movements. I wonder if this can calm the motors? There isn’t a whole lot of info in the manual about this switch. Other than the fact that it won’t do any harm to turn it on or off.

    Ger...I didn’t see anything in the manual about disabling the auto current reduction, but Ahren at CNCRP suggested something similar, that the auto current reduction was maybe the problem. He said probably don’t worry about it unless you start losing position. Maybe an email to Leadshine would be helpful at this point as well.



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    Default Re: Motors making funny noise when idling

    With the PC turned off, turn on the MX4660 and see if it still does it.

    Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    With the PC turned off, turn on the MX4660 and see if it still does it.
    I just gave that a try, only had a few minutes so I’ll give it longer this afternoon. But in the few minutes I was able to give this a test, I noticed no odd noises/clunking. Which tentatively leads me to think maybe it is Windows 10 and/or the smoothstepper that needs to be looked into. Not certain, but seems likely, since the problem stops when they are not part of the signal chain.

    EDIT: Also worth noting, I plugged into a different circuit. So a bad ground could potentially be the issue as well. I’ll test again on the usual circuit later today.



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    Default Re: Motors making funny noise when idling

    I really don't see how it could be the Smoothstepper.

    And just confirm that the motors are locked up when the PC is turned off. The drive needs to be enabled and holding the motors in position.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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Motors making funny noise when idling

Motors making funny noise when idling