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  1. #61
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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    My guess is Z is so slow since it has to move a hell of a lot of mass against gravity in the Z+ direction. Unless Z assembly is counter weighted it going to need butt load of power to move quickly.

    BTW my 2014 Patriot slop in the X and Y isn't too bad and I can more rapids at 75"/min without losing steps. Working on improving Z it has issues.



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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    Yes, the older machines were only driving the quill, so the Z rapids were really fast, but the new Mill Turn Z axis is lifting the entire mill head casting which probably weighs 100#.



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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    Nothing a pair of lift struts can't fix. They come in all sizes and a pair could be used to counter balance the weight you mentioned.

    Brad :cool:


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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    I too have only been able to get my z to run reliably at 12 ipm. It consistently is worse at the same spot about an inch above its lowest point. I couldn't get it to that speed until i loosened and then tightened the 6 vertical posts. This helped get things out of a bind. I have never been able to get my spindles to run at an accurate/stable rpm.



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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    Quote Originally Posted by mccafferty View Post
    I too have only been able to get my z to run reliably at 12 ipm. It consistently is worse at the same spot about an inch above its lowest point. I couldn't get it to that speed until i loosened and then tightened the 6 vertical posts. This helped get things out of a bind. I have never been able to get my spindles to run at an accurate/stable rpm.
    Has anyone done this for the previous Patriot model? Taking some weight off would allow the A axis to move quicker.



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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    Keep in mind that stepper motors have a limited rpm range, and regardless of their power they will only go so fast. The Z axis ratio is 4-1, so you are not going to get much faster than 12 IPM due to the rpm limits. The only way to increase that would be to change the drive ratio. I could get about 20 IPM on the downstroke, but on the upstroke, lifting all that weight it would sometimes bind, so I went with a conservative setting to avoid any lost program steps. Lift struts could equalize the up and down motion if properly selected and perhaps get you 20 IPM both directions.



  7. #67
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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    I thought you might have a gripe with the manufacturer and went and checked the specs for the new machines and found he was sly enough not to list any feed rates on any of the axis! It simply states the machine's feed is adjustable from 0 to Max. We now are finding out the max is about 12 inches a minute. That's crazy slow for a rapid rate and it's even so slow as a feed rate that your going to burn some materials rather than cut them. I can't think of another cnc being made today with a rapid anywhere close to as slow as this! Those long 3d cuts I like to do would be out of the question on one of those.

    I'd suggest getting bigger motors and motor drives and reducing the reduction in the drive train to speed things along. Typical Shopmaster quality, it will work but to work right your going to have to dump more money and time into your machine. Even those huge stepper motors that Bridgeport used back decades ago would out perform the current setup on a mill turn.

    Even the guy that developed the cnc drive system for the Shopmaster machines won't be able to help you get any more speed out of a bad design decision made by Shopmaster. The original system designer is selling his Shopmaster machine on E-bay. It's been listed and relisted for several weeks now for $3600.00 with no takers. Rather than buy a new one from Shopmaster that's full of bugs I'd rather buy a used one for half the money that's been fine tuned to run right! Here's the link: Shopmaster Eldorado Bridgemill CNC VFD | eBay

    Brad :cool:


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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    At 12"/min peck drilling series of holes can be very tedious.

    I have my old Patriot setup doing 50"/min for rapids. Even at that it would be nice if it went faster.

    The Patriot's feed weren't specified either. As shipped it was set at a conservative 20"/min. I got it running rapids fine at 75"/min XY and 50 on Z. The A axis is a different story very inconsistent movement. I only jog it up and down during setup never moving it for cuts. IMO it is too floppy in movement to be worth much cutting. I hope the buyers of the mill turn find the newer design better in that area.



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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    I thought you might have a gripe with the manufacturer and went and checked the specs for the new machines and found he was sly enough not to list any feed rates on any of the axis!

    ]
    To be fair, we seem to be talking about 3 different machines here- The thread is about the Mill Turn, but one guy has a Patriot and the other machine is a Bridgemill from 10 years ago. I have owned all 3 models and like everyone else, I sometimes wish for more power or more speed etc. but you accept what they offer for the price. As far as '" being sly" goes, perhaps you should be "sly" enough to read the specs or ask questions before buying if those feed rates are an important issue for you.



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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    Quote Originally Posted by smallblock View Post
    To be fair, we seem to be talking about 3 different machines here- The thread is about the Mill Turn, but one guy has a Patriot and the other machine is a Bridgemill from 10 years ago. I have owned all 3 models and like everyone else, I sometimes wish for more power or more speed etc. but you accept what they offer for the price. As far as '" being sly" goes, perhaps you should be "sly" enough to read the specs or ask questions before buying if those feed rates are an important issue for you.
    Yes, 3 different versions of the machine but all are running the same drives, have ball screws and probably the same stepper motors. If anything most people would think a new model would be faster and improved specs or no specs. At the very least most would think it would at least be as fast as a model made by the same company a decade ago. Not slower! Also I'd like to point out the guy that's selling the old machine is the same guy that developed the cnc drive setup for my factory installed Patriot. I guess I could ask him if he worked on the drive setups for the new Mill Turn but what would be the point? The fact remains the new machine is proving to be the slowest cnc in production in the world. Please feel free to mention another cnc maker that can boast that they replaced "turbo" speed with "turtle" speed and are selling it as "new" and "improved". If I was selling drives for cnc machines I would not want my name attached to any machine with such poor performance. People might think the snail speed problem was related to my drives instead of the machine they are installed in. I'd walk away from any partnership until the hardware kinks were properly addressed.

    As far as price goes let's be fair about that too! The Bridgemill you refer to had far more parts in it than today's offering from Shopmaster. With the huge parts reduction came a huge manufacturing price reduction yet the price for today's lower performing machine has not gone down.

    In order to fix the problem at the source I'd suggest throwing out the round ways currently in use for the mill and going to vertical castings at each end of the lathe section. You could borrow current big boy cnc machine designs and attach precision rails to these castings for the head to ride up and down on. I'd suggest two rails per end. Mazak uses this system on their cnc's as do others. I've personally used these machines and they are accurate and fast. Even the robot loaders on the Mazak lathes use this system but they mount the rails on a long section of rectangular tubing instead of mounting it to castings. Even the robot system is far faster and more accurate than anything on any Shopmaster. The biggest expense increase would be the precision rails compared to the round rails currently being attempted with the Mill Turn. Mazak is a U.S.A. company and for what it's worth, their control system is built on Windows computers. Mach 3 was not the only one able to make a cnc controller out of a Windows platform!

    Brad :cool:


  11. #71
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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    The great thing about being in the USA is that you can bundle up all your blueprints and ideas, hop a plane over to China and have them build machines for you. With all your improvements you'll be a millionaire in no time.



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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    Quote Originally Posted by GITERDUN View Post
    The great thing about being in the USA is that you can bundle up all your blueprints and ideas, hop a plane over to China and have them build machines for you. With all your improvements you'll be a millionaire in no time.
    Shopmaster might have thought that at one time also. I don't think things quite worked out that way. You still have to have a good product and great customer support otherwise word of mouth will kill off any dreams of grandeur one might have.

    Brad :cool:


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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    I'd like to know as well, for my Mill Turn. I emailed Shopmaster and I got no reply.



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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    With my Mill Turn, moving the Z axis manually seems to have about the same drag going up and down (to my surprise (compared to my Eldorado anyway ))



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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    JT has a file on how to tram the machine- maybe your e-mail didn't get through. Try him again, or send me a PM and I can forward the file to you.



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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    So I never heard the question answered Mill Turn or Tormach? Regardless of price difference, which is a better machine?



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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    If I had to do it again, I would definitely purchase the Tormach. The Mill Turn may eventually be a more capable machine for less money, but JT doesn't like to share any documentation so if you want to repair or maintain anything, you have to disassemble it and reverse engineer everything. I think Tormachs are worth the extra money for the support and documentation alone. Not one thing on my Mill Turn worked out of the box; none of it was overly difficult to fix, but most of it I had to either sort out myself or get suggestions from forum members here. I'm kind of dreading when the spindle bearings need replacing because unlike previous models JT doesn't list any replacement and wants the whole assembly sent back for service.

    Check the Shopmaster website, you won't find a support section or a documentation section, and when you look under common parts, nothing about the Mill-Turn. If the documentation was open and there were drawings to better enable repairs and modifications, I think the Mill-turn could be an excellent starting platform for hobbyists and small businesses.



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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    I'm not sure what the issue is between you and JT, but I have been dealing with him for over 20 years and 4 different models of his machines. He has always been prompt in answering questions and supplying any necessary parts. The Mill Turn has a cartridge design that can be removed from the machine in minutes. Frankly, I can't imagine anyone not being able to repair it by simple intuitive thinking. I challenge you to find any other company that sold machines in 1981 and when you contact them you are still dealing with the same guy. As far as the question about choosing a Tormach or Mill Turn, it's really an odd one. If you want a Tormach Mill and Lathe, you are talking in the price range of 30K +.



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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    If you have the money it's a no brain choice to go with the "works out of the box" machine rather than the bubble gum and bailing wire version of a cnc. If you don't have the money I'd suggest start saving to buy the Tormach rather than waste your money on something I'm sure won't work out of the box if ever. If you like the "Heathkit" version of a cnc, then by all means buy a Shopmaster product and learn how they tick while you kill off endless hours trouble shooting various problems on a machine that was supposed to work out of the box. You may get it working or it may end up a pile of parts like many of the Heathkit projects of yesterday. Many great electronics wiz kids cut their teeth on the do it yourself projects sold by Heathkit.

    Brad :cool:


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    Default Re: NEW MILL TURN ARRIVED

    Interesting analogy. I remember those Heathkits too, and you are right many of them simply ended up in the attic. The guys who did manage to build one went on to become Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, while those who couldn't finish went on to be- well- nobody. Pretty much the same in the tool business, you have some guys doing great things with their machines and others just endlessly wringing their hands.



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