Overview of our Shoptask Experience
Well we have had our Eldorado in the shop since the 18th of Dec. Hopefully tomorrow we will be able to actually get some chips cut by it. (These will be the 1st chips!!)
We have had a string of little issues with the machine since we got it assembled here. Most of them were minimal, but the issue that I just solved is just DUMB. From the other forums about these machines I know I am not the only one with this problem.
The key inside the R8 spindle for the mill head is too big. This means that the sloppy collets that came with the machine fit in, but not a single other R8 collet would fit, either american made, or import. SO this means that i had to tear the WHOLE mill head apart, and remove the key, so I could remove .050" off it to make the collets fit. This is just crazy in my mind. It took me a full day to disassemble the head, fix the issue, and re-assemble it.
Although many say this machine is nothing short of great, I am so far less than impressed....... hell you can't even bring the head up to full height in some the gears, due to pulley interference!
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Matt
San Diego, Ca
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(Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)
Hi Devinchi,
I too have a key inside the mill spindle that is waiting to be shaved down. I picked up a nice set of r8 collets on eBay and finally got around to needing to use them. But, the keyways are too shallow for the deeper key in the spindle. Yah! That was crazy. I'm going to get a collet holder with inserts anyway so i'm not going to take it(the key) out until I have to.... That may be sooner if the collet holder keyway can't be deepened.
What's going on with that belt/pulley interference? I didn't notice any restrictions other than the crank hits the protective hood, but only when it is about as high as it goes?
I'm not saying much negatively because I know that for the price this shoptask is well worth it. I WILL say that some of the places they chose to cut costs on the machine were inappropriate....yet nothing that can't be rectified by the user.
Last edited by Bloy2004; 01-05-2004 at 09:25 PM.
Another thought....
I don't know yet if there is a standard for keyway depth on R8 collets, but if so then shoptask would be wise to follow it. Maybe some extra communication with the china plant on quality control.
There is no need to have the key so deep as the collet is pretty much drawn tight and locked with only a sliver of a key.
Here are 2 pics of the interference we have with the top plate of the quadra lift and the pulleys.
They are rather large pics, so I am not posting them directly.
http://fareast4x4.com/shop1.JPG
http://fareast4x4.com/shop2.JPG
This shows that we have interference with 2-3" of travel left in the head.....and this interferes in more gears than not. So we have all the travel advertised, but just not in all gears. And for some of the gears we whould have to take a SIZEABLE chunk out of the upper plate to have it clear.
Last edited by cncadmin; 01-06-2004 at 12:17 PM.
I see your problem.
I can only suggest to go with a shorter belt from the spindle pulley to the idler pulley. I have the Bridgemill model and so far it clears. This may be a problem here too though if I select a slower speed and the pulley centers change with the belt location. I will find out in the future when I need a slower speed and change the belt groove selection. Its how the pulley ratios are that may change the pulley centers.
Devinchi...
Noticing your DRO... I sure want to add that to my machine for manual use. I was making a part with a bore and went too visual and made the bore too large. Fortunately it wasn't critcal as the mounting holes surrounding the bore still landed in solid metal.
Ya, we got the Shoptask as a CNC, and just decided to step up and get EVERYTHING. So it has the CNC, Ballscrews, DRO, all the toys.
We finally got the machine up and firing on all cylinders. Some inexpensive wood proto's today. tomorrow...metal!
I've never run a Shoptask, but when I looking into my first personal machine, I lucked out and got an original Emco M8; one of the last built in Austria. Now they are all farmed out to Taiwan, or the current lowest bidder.
The great thing about it is that the milling head bolts on the back of the lathe, in the middle. Looking at the Shoptask, with the milling head on the headstock, I couldn't see how much could be done except drilling holes in the chuck!
And the EMCO is all gear driven, no belts. The only bad (good) thing about it is that the screws (longitudinal feed, mill head height) are 16 TPI, so it is really precise but takes forever to raise the head.
Are there any advantages a Shoptask has over an EMCO?
I have not seen Emco in many years. Are you sure you don't confuse it with Enco? (I assume that was Enco's intention.) They are what you describe.Originally Posted by BarnBurner
They are still alive and well:
http://www.emco.at
They mostly do CNC now; they have a mill the size of the Taig that was something like $17,000! (http://www.desktopcnc.com/emco.htm)
'This Austrian based company has made machine tools since 1947, note this is not to be confused with the Far East company Enco. With interchangeable options the mill can mimic the control operations of Fanuc, Heidenhain, Siemens or EMCOtronic.'
Blue Ridge machinery handles the parts and accessories, but I don't think Emco makes the Mill/Drill anymore.
I have heard of the Enco, and that probably was intentional. I don't think they were nearly the quality of Emco. I couldn't find much at their site, the script that lists the products keeps crashing!
at a glance and not having the tri-power i want i'd first have to say it looks as the pullys have been mounted upside down and backwards ? is it a possibility ? it would make for a lot more room if large end was opposite
Don
IH v-3 early model owner
I had the same problem on my Eldorado. Bent the pulleys pretty good moving the z axis up. Took me a while to straighten them out. That's the one really big thing I don't like about the Eldorado, the pulley / belt system. It makes it really easy for belt changes, but even with the best belts it slips under heavy load. I'm currently upgrading my (2) shoptasks with 2 hp three phase motors. I'm still trying to come up with a solution on the pulleys. If anyone has got a better idea, I'm all ears.
Richard
Hey Bloy, and others,
I found an easy work around for the R-8 key in the mill head. I had the same problem you describe, what I did was disassemble my mill head, and take the quill shaft out so I could get to the Key way, (I did have thoughts of grinding it down alittle), BUT, once I got it dis assembled, I noticed the keyway is held in place with two screws, that have little washers on them. So........ just for fun, I put the the washers UNDER the little tiny block that holds the key. this pulled they key way, out of the quill by the thickness of the washers. I tightend the screws, put a little tiny dab of loc-tight on the threads. I then re assembled the mill head. It worked like a charm, the economical R-8's that I got from enco, then fit in like a glove. I have ran it like this for the past 3 years with NO problems. I also run 2 HP, variable speed DC moters which will run from 0-3,400RPM. Since most of my mill work doesn't really come close to needing 3,400 RPM. I just use the (slightly slower pulley range than mid range), to get more power pulley advantage. If for some reason I do need higher RPM, I go up one pulley. NOTE: The DC drives I have, have an optional selector switch to choose between RPM Tach feedback, and a selector for RPM and one for Torque..... I use the RPM feedback tach and the torque setting this keeps the power up, even for slow speeds like power taping i.e. 50 RPM......
Also, if you using the CNC balls/screws for shop task, set you Z return spring where it is slightly stronger than the wieght of your quill, this will keep out back lash (not that there is a hole lot).
Further, add a second Ball Nut from Nook industries just like the ones on the machine one for each X and Y, and set it up as a double nut, to add some preload. Again this tightens up and elimanates back lash in the axis. A singular ball nut from nook is about 0.004 per foot. with the double, you can cut that down to about 0.001 per foot. NOTE: Take the time to ajust your gibs on X and Y.....if it just doesn't seam to what to do right, Remake/regrind your own gibs...... I noted mine had a slight "warp" in it, so I had the gibs remade/reground out of Steel. No problems after that.
Oh yea, one other note: On the X axis, the ball screw CNC gear, has a tiny, tiny set screw.......this will start to slip on you after a while, and you will notice some play in the X axis shaft that will drive you nuts trying to figure out where the problem is. Take it from me, take the gear off, redrill it to accept a 0.25 flatbottom grub screw, (the ball screw already has a grind flat for it to catch on the ball screw). You X-axis is without dought your heaviest and hardest to move.
goodluck,
Scott
I have been considering the shoptask for yrs now and am really close to having the funds for purchasing the new version "tri power" butt ! after reading some of the issues with pully's, backlash, gibs, set screws etc. I'm really having some second thoughts. I have been figuring on this machine purchase being a source of income for retirement, not just a hobby. I'm curious if these issues have been passed on to the source and what you might have received as support from them. it wouldn't be a very long wait and i could aim higher for a cnc bridgeport or other higher end machine. the main interest with this machine was having both lathe and mill. I don't know of any in my area, i'd sure like to see one up close. what say you guys, would you admit to any second thoughts like wishing you had done something else instead ? I'd really like to hear some serious imput here. I'll say "papabear10"s input was rather respected and spending $10 g's to fix and adj. so that i can get some tollerances is rediculus sounding. I presently work on a Monarch cnc verticle turning center and run tollerances of +- .ooo5 and thats on a 48" chuck this little guy should be able to get better than .oo4 to 12" !
Don
IH v-3 early model owner
For the money, I feel it is a great deal. There are a few people doing gunsmithing that use this machine and make a living doing it. That being said, if you are doing something else, production type work.... it still can be done, but you would need a few upgrades. I own two of the shoptask machines. If I were to do it over I would:
order a plain stock machine
pull the motors off & upgrade to 2-3 hp with VFD
add my own steppers/servos
add impulse tach for syncing of rpms
add limit switches
add coolant system
add lighting
Then.... you would have a very capable machine.
Richard
Note: with mine and the double nuts, on x and y, I am holding 0.001 per foot,
most of my parts are under 6" on average and truley it holds no appreciable diviation from my specs at this level, but having said that, your real practicle milling envolope with Lathe chuck removed is just about 10" diameter, shop task says it is 11x18, but I am including stuff for clamps and stuff.........
The weak point in my opion of the Mill part is the head, even with the arm locked down, and high horse power motors, you get alot of chatter if you try to take a 3/4 carbide mill and hog out a .125 cut at F9 in AL.......alot of that vibration comes from the table, it need reinforcement in a bad way, further more stability of the 5th arm would also help.
If you are going to be doing Hobby level income (I make Real Guns, Paintball guns, and other various widgets for these things). It does a good job for what it is.
Now if you want to do larger things and hog chips faster then yes, get you a BP and retro fit it your self.
The Lathe part of the shoptask: The Lathe is ok as well, like all machines once you get used to how it performs, you learn what to do to overcome its limitations. It would be dought full that you will hold a 0.0005 tolorance over any length over a foot on the lathe. There may be others who will argue with me, and that is fine, that has been my experience. Truely though, I have yet to run into a job that I do that truely requires tolorances greater than 0.003 in a singular direction....
A part that you could run on a commercial CNC Lathe or Mill (average size) in 1 hour, may take you 3-4 hrs on your ST, since it really is at best a light industrial machine.
Would I buy it again? For what I do, yes I would, I have been overall very happy with it. Most of the problems, you can fix. Of all the "Hobbie" level machines you can buy, the Shoptask blows them all away. It is by far the largest of the 3 in 1's.
later,
scott
Your request for imput on Shoptask
Cruiser,
Steer clear of Shoptask. I bought a shoptask machine back in 2000 and hated it. Not much on the machine ran well right out of the crate. After much time (years) and frustration, I was able to finally fix it, I had to redesign the drive system, employing a variable speed motor to drive the lathe and the mill required all sorts of improv.. I now have a 5 gal. bucket full of old shoptask parts. The lathe part of the machine is finally as accurate as any that size. The mill works pretty well on soft materials such as plastic. However, when you try to cut aluminum or steel the lack of rigidity really shows! One other importaint point: You just don't realize how valuable a knee is on a mill until you don't have one! My advice is buy a real mill and a real lathe on the used market! I finally did and now seldom use the shoptask. Plus if you buy a used machine you might be able to get your money back if you decide to sell it. I don't think you'll do the same with a new shoptask.
My machine is now a decent little CNC machine. But boy did I pay a high price for it!
Just my 2 cents,
Chris
P.S.
Don't count on the machine arriving on time, Mine was the typical 6 mos. late.
There is ABSOLUTLY NO WAY you can compare the Shoptask to a B-port, new or used.
They are not *that* type of machine. If you need to do fast, heavy cuts, why do you think a 3in1 would do that better than a dedicated 2ton mill?
I gunsmith on my eldorado (stupid name) and have had some issues... no more than any other piece of machinery I have bought.
Hey all, I did in fact stay away from the eldorado altogether, in fact, i was on the net and waiting for the seller to open shop so i could call and order when i cam across this and another link, i also saw the add for "Industrial hobbies" machine and took a look. I went from min's to ordering straight to owner of the "IH" mill and some many months later am going to call it up, running, and on line today one way or another !
Don
IH v-3 early model owner
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