Generic servo tuning advice, yaskawa


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Thread: Generic servo tuning advice, yaskawa

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    Default Generic servo tuning advice, yaskawa

    Could use some general servo tuning advice. This is my first AC servo experience. Years of DC servo.

    We have a 5axis trunnion, on a machining center. I have the 4th axis tuned and running. The 4th drive is a yaskawa SGDC-05AJA. (0.4kw) This series of drives does NOT have autotuning. Old school.

    We are having problems tuning the 5th axis motor. The 5th drive is a SGDC-15AJA, (So a bit large at 1.5kw for the small motors) And have to use a 0.9kw motor code.

    Could use some tuning advice. Out of the table, the 5th motor jumps wildly and alarms. Or is stable, but jumps when touched by hand, or when jogged 0.01°. Increasing position gain just causes the motor to oscillate and OVERHEAT. It is a brand new motor. When using the same parameters as the 4th, the motor just jumps/alarms consistently when energized.

    I have the following tuning parameters:
    Position Gain. Kp.
    Speed loop gain. Kv.
    Speed loop time Ki.
    Speed torsion filter.
    Load inertia.

    The encoder output looks good, and I am getting good encoder position data on the control when spinning the motor by hand.

    What gain parameters would you modify in order of priority? Once I get past jumping, and to oscillating, how much incrementally would you decrease position gain? 1, 10, 100, 1000? (Position gain currently set to: 4000. Speed gain: 4500. Time: 550.

    What causes the servo energize, and wild jump? Too high speed gain, or too low position gain? Or some other gain parameter?

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    Default Re: Generic servo tuning advice, yaskawa

    Does the motor direction correspond to the encoder direction?


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    Default Re: Generic servo tuning advice, yaskawa

    Strange, according to the manual for that drive on page 308, it should have auto tuning..There is also some formulas to set the gains manually.



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    Default Re: Generic servo tuning advice, yaskawa

    Quote Originally Posted by claya View Post
    Could use some general servo tuning advice. This is my first AC servo experience. Years of DC servo.

    We have a 5axis trunnion, on a machining center. I have the 4th axis tuned and running. The 4th drive is a yaskawa SGDC-05AJA. (0.4kw) This series of drives does NOT have autotuning. Old school.

    We are having problems tuning the 5th axis motor. The 5th drive is a SGDC-15AJA, (So a bit large at 1.5kw for the small motors) And have to use a 0.9kw motor code.

    Could use some tuning advice. Out of the table, the 5th motor jumps wildly and alarms. Or is stable, but jumps when touched by hand, or when jogged 0.01°. Increasing position gain just causes the motor to oscillate and OVERHEAT. It is a brand new motor. When using the same parameters as the 4th, the motor just jumps/alarms consistently when energized.

    I have the following tuning parameters:
    Position Gain. Kp.
    Speed loop gain. Kv.
    Speed loop time Ki.
    Speed torsion filter.
    Load inertia.

    The encoder output looks good, and I am getting good encoder position data on the control when spinning the motor by hand.

    What gain parameters would you modify in order of priority? Once I get past jumping, and to oscillating, how much incrementally would you decrease position gain? 1, 10, 100, 1000? (Position gain currently set to: 4000. Speed gain: 4500. Time: 550.

    What causes the servo energize, and wild jump? Too high speed gain, or too low position gain? Or some other gain parameter?
    The 1500w drive is not suitable for anything lower than 850w motor so if your motor is smaller than this it's not going to work very well

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Generic servo tuning advice, yaskawa

    Quote Originally Posted by claya View Post
    Could use some general servo tuning advice. This is my first AC servo experience. Years of DC servo.

    We have a 5axis trunnion, on a machining center. I have the 4th axis tuned and running. The 4th drive is a yaskawa SGDC-05AJA. (0.4kw) This series of drives does NOT have autotuning. Old school.

    We are having problems tuning the 5th axis motor. The 5th drive is a SGDC-15AJA, (So a bit large at 1.5kw for the small motors) And have to use a 0.9kw motor code.

    Could use some tuning advice. Out of the table, the 5th motor jumps wildly and alarms. Or is stable, but jumps when touched by hand, or when jogged 0.01°. Increasing position gain just causes the motor to oscillate and OVERHEAT. It is a brand new motor. When using the same parameters as the 4th, the motor just jumps/alarms consistently when energized.

    I have the following tuning parameters:
    Position Gain. Kp.
    Speed loop gain. Kv.
    Speed loop time Ki.
    Speed torsion filter.
    Load inertia.

    The encoder output looks good, and I am getting good encoder position data on the control when spinning the motor by hand.

    What gain parameters would you modify in order of priority? Once I get past jumping, and to oscillating, how much incrementally would you decrease position gain? 1, 10, 100, 1000? (Position gain currently set to: 4000. Speed gain: 4500. Time: 550.

    What causes the servo energize, and wild jump? Too high speed gain, or too low position gain? Or some other gain parameter?
    You will need to do a few things; Each drive will need to have its internal parameters set to the correct motor. If you do not do this, any tuning external to the drive will be very difficult, a waste of time.
    In addition you will be able to set some of the tuning parameters.

    1. Download Sigma Win software or purchase the Digital Operator.
    2. Each servo drive's parameters must be configure to its attached motor.
    3. Are these step-dir or +- 10V.
    4. What software / hardware is connected to the drives? The loop in this software will also have to be set / tuned.

    In summary, the software loop and the {drive loop and proper motor configuration} will need to be set.

    Bottom Line, you MUST configure each drive to the attached motor first!!!
    Second Tune: the PID loop.

    Hope this helps,

    Iron-Man



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    Default Re: Generic servo tuning advice, yaskawa

    Iron-Man,

    So far, you know more about these drives than anyone we have talked to. So that helps a lot.

    The SGDC-15AJA drive does NOT have the PCB & connector for the Digital operator. The AJA drives are just simple amps. All the parameters come from the Machine control.
    We do have an SGDC-05AJA that works like it should. The problem we are having is with the higher wattage -15AJA drive. The control uses motor codes to configure the drive/motor. And an Encoder code to configure the encoder. The drive (or control) does not recognize the correct motor code as valid for the -15 drive. So we have a work-around that according to one Yaskawa expert should be working.

    So some VERY basic servo questions:

    We are getting motor jumps, or oscillation at drive energize. Changing parameters one at a time on the control does NOT converge the symptoms, at least that we can tell.
    What causes the Jumps? Gain Parameters, or servo configuration? The error is 3045, Encoder pulse following error.
    What causes the oscillations? Gain parameters, encoder errors, or servo configuration. We get no error with the oscillations, but the motor heats up FAST, and is at 200% max current load.
    On this era drive do we have to adjust the Kp/Kv/Ti gains together to get the rough motor tune? Or just the fine tuning? In other words, change two or all three parameters to stabilize the motor.

    A Fanuc expert suggests it might be a commutation error. These motor/drive use the C-channel, but I don't really understand how. We have seen a commutation error on a different motor/encoder, but that was from taking the Encoder off the motor, and not getting it timed correctly. How do the Yaskawa AC motors manage commutation? Could the jumps/oscillation instability be a commutation error?


    Quote Originally Posted by Iron-Man View Post
    You will need to do a few things; Each drive will need to have its internal parameters set to the correct motor. If you do not do this, any tuning external to the drive will be very difficult, a waste of time.
    In addition you will be able to set some of the tuning parameters.

    1. Download Sigma Win software or purchase the Digital Operator.
    2. Each servo drive's parameters must be configure to its attached motor.
    3. Are these step-dir or +- 10V.
    4. What software / hardware is connected to the drives? The loop in this software will also have to be set / tuned.

    In summary, the software loop and the {drive loop and proper motor configuration} will need to be set.

    Bottom Line, you MUST configure each drive to the attached motor first!!!
    Second Tune: the PID loop.

    Hope this helps,

    Iron-Man




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    Default Re: Generic servo tuning advice, yaskawa

    What manual are you looking at? You have a link? The AJA version of the Drive has no capability of connecting an operator. So not sure how auto-tuning gets initiated. I would LOVE to auto-tune, if its possible. We can do the "tuning" manually by formula via control parameter. But I am not sure we are even in the ballpark for that yet. See my response to Iron-Man for the details/basic questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by underthetire View Post
    Strange, according to the manual for that drive on page 308, it should have auto tuning..There is also some formulas to set the gains manually.




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    Default Re: Generic servo tuning advice, yaskawa

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    The 1500w drive is not suitable for anything lower than 850w motor so if your motor is smaller than this it's not going to work very well
    Not work very well, meaning what? Can't get it to work at all, or we can't set the gain values low enough to work well? Is the higher wattage drive not able to fine adjust the current to match the smaller motor? One of the techs we talked to said this is doable, as these AJA drives are just simple amps. They do whatever the machine control/feedback tells them to do, so long as the drive wattage is high enough to match the motor.



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    Default Re: Generic servo tuning advice, yaskawa

    Quote Originally Posted by claya View Post
    Not work very well, meaning what? Can't get it to work at all, or we can't set the gain values low enough to work well? Is the higher wattage drive not able to fine adjust the current to match the smaller motor? One of the techs we talked to said this is doable, as these AJA drives are just simple amps. They do whatever the machine control/feedback tells them to do, so long as the drive wattage is high enough to match the motor.
    "You answered part of the question yourself " ( so long as the drive wattage is high enough to match the motor )

    No you most likely won't get it to work correctly as that drive will not support the encoder motor codes the drive is to large for the motor you are driving all Yaskawa Drives only support a small range of motors with in the wattage range of the drive you are using

    As I said Yaskawa does not recommend any smaller motor than 850w on a 1500watt drive

    Yes they have Auto tuning and can connect with a remote operator with 7CN port

    Do you have absolute or incremental encoder ??

    What size motor are you trying to run ??

    There are only 2 motor sizes that will run on that drive 13A=183 code and 15A=202 code

    Last edited by mactec54; 08-30-2019 at 09:09 AM. Reason: added more content
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Generic servo tuning advice, yaskawa

    Quote Originally Posted by Autophanous View Post
    Is motor direction correspond to encoder direction?
    Same thing I asked. No response. It’s the first that should be checked.


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    Default

    According to an experienced yasnac tech, we can run the lower wattage motor on this drive. However he did not know what gain values to use. The encoder codes 'seem" to be working, using encoder code 22. 14 also works. We are getting the correct position readout, and direction.

    2048 incremental.
    Motor:SGMP-04A314M

    The AJA drives do not have autotuning. There is no 7CN connector to use a digital operator.

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    "You answered part of the question yourself " ( so long as the drive wattage is high enough to match the motor )

    No you most likely won't get it to work correctly as that drive will not support the encoder motor codes the drive is to large for the motor you are driving all Yaskawa Drives only support a small range of motors with in the wattage range of the drive you are using

    As I said Yaskawa does not recommend any smaller motor than 850w on a 1500watt drive

    Yes they have Auto tuning and can connect with a remote operator with 7CN port

    Do you have absolute or incremental encoder ??

    What size motor are you trying to run ??

    There are only 2 motor sizes that will run on that drive 13A=183 code and 15A=202 code




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    Default

    Yes. Responded to another thread. I don't know how to respond to multiple threads with one reply.

    I believe Motor direction corresponds to encoder direction. We have two drives. Both motors turning the same direction. The jump/oscillation does not vary by changing motor direction on the drive we are having trouble with.

    Quote Originally Posted by chemphd View Post
    Same thing I asked. No response. It’s the first that should be checked.


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