What else do you need to run AC servo motors?

[Goemon]

I happened to acquire three 400W 200v 2.6a Yaskawa AC servo motors as they came with some linear actuators I bought. I was planning to just replace them with my Nema 23 3.5a stepper motors as it appeared that the servos had the same nema 23 screw hole spacing. They don't....

Just like with all other things CNC related, there is a 1mm difference preventing me from mounting my steppers in the actuator assembly. 1mm is enough to prevent them fitting but too little to allow space for new screw holes.... typical...

So.... I am wondering how hard / expensive it would be to use some (or all) of the servos instead. Are AC servo drives universal like stepper drives or would I need Yaskawa drives to run Yaskawa servos?

Other than the servo drives, is any other hardware required to use AC servo motors? Do AC servo drives plug directly into a 240v or 120v outlet or do you need to purchase a seperate psu like you have to for a stepper drive?

The servos I got have two cables coming out the back. One looks like a 4 wire power input and the other looks like a male db9 (with some missing pins). Is it safe to assume the db9 connector is for a built-in encoder?

Can you run AC servos with a LinuxCNC set-up? How do you connect the drives to a PC? I.e. Do you need an additional breakout board or do the drives connect to each other with a single parallel port cable connecting the chain of drives to a PC?

Can you mix AC servos and steppers on the same CNC machine? I get that you would lose the benefits of the AC servo motors but assume I don't care about closed loop what-nots.

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[awerby]

Unfortunately, it's more complicated than that. If you look at Yaskakawa's explanation: http://www.e-mechatronics.com/downlo...00061d_3_0.pdf you'll see multiple layers of controls ahead of the motors. The function of the "core network" and "cell line controls" can probably be taken over by LinuxCNC, but you'd still need the special motion controllers and drivers that are compatible with those motors. I don't think it's possible to run that sort of system on some axes and steppers on others if you expect coordinated motion between them.

It would be much easier to tap those holes that are a mm off, thread in some screw stock made of the same metal your mounts are made of, loctite them in, and drill new holes where the steppers need them...

[mactec54]

Unfortunately, it's more complicated than that. If you look at Yaskakawa's explanation: http://www.e-mechatronics.com/downlo...00061d_3_0.pdf you'll see multiple layers of controls ahead of the motors. The function of the "core network" and "cell line controls" can probably be taken over by LinuxCNC, but you'd still need the special motion controllers and drivers that are compatible with those motors. I don't think it's possible to run that sort of system on some axes and steppers on others if you expect coordinated motion between them.

It would be much easier to tap those holes that are a mm off, thread in some screw stock made of the same metal your mounts are made of, loctite them in, and drill new holes where the steppers need them...

That is not correct, all he needs is the Servo drives that match the motors he has and can run it using any control software you want to use, he has to choose the right Yaskawa Servo drive that will take step/dir or +/-10 volts depending on how he wants to control them, so if he posts the complete motor number and letters, I will tell what drives you can use for your motors

Its no different than using stepper motors in terms of control, setup is a little different, but lots use the Yaskawa Servos for the builds

[Savad]

you can use the Parker servo-Amplifiers and program it to use almost any servomotor of the right size for the servo-Amplifier. Software to program the servo-Amplifier is easy to use and FREE!!

[Goemon]

Unfortunately, it's more complicated than that. If you look at Yaskakawa's explanation: http://www.e-mechatronics.com/downlo...00061d_3_0.pdf you'll see multiple layers of controls ahead of the motors. The function of the "core network" and "cell line controls" can probably be taken over by LinuxCNC, but you'd still need the special motion controllers and drivers that are compatible with those motors. I don't think it's possible to run that sort of system on some axes and steppers on others if you expect coordinated motion between them.

It would be much easier to tap those holes that are a mm off, thread in some screw stock made of the same metal your mounts are made of, loctite them in, and drill new holes where the steppers need them...

My options for adding additional plates with the right screw hole pattern are limited / non-existent because the shaft on my Nema 23 motors is too short. It can't reach the motor / ball screw coupling.

I have a 3.5a Nema 34 motor with a longer shaft and that reaches the coupling but it doesn't fit inside the actuator enclosure. I prefer this motor over my Nema 23's because it's 1/2" shaft feels a lot more robust than the 1/4" twig. I just wish it fit...

[awerby]

Mactec could be right; I'm really not an expert on AC servos, but when we tried implementing some on a retrofit it turned out to be a lot more complicated than I'd thought. But those were Emerson motors, not Yaskawa, and we were trying to close the loop in software, so we needed another layer of control besides LinuxCNC and the appropriate drives - in our case, a motion controller from Vital systems: Mach3 Mach4 Ethernet Motion Controller, CNC Retrofit, Machine Tools

If you could get those AC servos to work, they would perform better than steppers, with the additional advantage of fitting the holes and reaching the couplers...

[ger21]

If you really know what you are doing, there are some drives that will work with a variety of AC servos.
But what you really want is a matches set of motor and drive, and preferably a drive that accepts step and direction. Then it's not much more complicated than a stepper.
The main issue, is that different motors use different types of encoders, and the drive usually needs a specific encoder signal. So they most often need to be a matched set.
Granite devices makes some universal drives, but they're not cheap.

[Iron-Man]

I happened to acquire three 400W 200v 2.6a Yaskawa AC servo motors as they came with some linear actuators I bought. I was planning to just replace them with my Nema 23 3.5a stepper motors as it appeared that the servos had the same nema 23 screw hole spacing. They don't....

Just like with all other things CNC related, there is a 1mm difference preventing me from mounting my steppers in the actuator assembly. 1mm is enough to prevent them fitting but too little to allow space for new screw holes.... typical...

So.... I am wondering how hard / expensive it would be to use some (or all) of the servos instead. Are AC servo drives universal like stepper drives or would I need Yaskawa drives to run Yaskawa servos?

Other than the servo drives, is any other hardware required to use AC servo motors? Do AC servo drives plug directly into a 240v or 120v outlet or do you need to purchase a seperate psu like you have to for a stepper drive?

The servos I got have two cables coming out the back. One looks like a 4 wire power input and the other looks like a male db9 (with some missing pins). Is it safe to assume the db9 connector is for a built-in encoder?

Can you run AC servos with a LinuxCNC set-up? How do you connect the drives to a PC? I.e. Do you need an additional breakout board or do the drives connect to each other with a single parallel port cable connecting the chain of drives to a PC?

Can you mix AC servos and steppers on the same CNC machine? I get that you would lose the benefits of the AC servo motors but assume I don't care about closed loop what-nots.

First of all you need the proper Yaskawa AC Servo drives. Please list the part number of the servo motors that you have.
Some of the Yaskawa Servos use absolute encoders and some use incremental encoders.
I can help you match up the correct servo drives.
Again please provide the exact model number for your servo motors.
Also, do you want to use step and direction or +- 10V for control?
I upgraded a Denford NovaTurn lathe to Yaskawa AC Servos +- 10V Torque Mode.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES CONNECT ANY AC SERVO MOTOR DIRECTLY TO 220V or 110V WALL OUTLET. YOU WILL DESTROY THE MOTOR.

Iron-Man

[Goemon]

If you really know what you are doing, there are some drives that will work with a variety of AC servos.
But what you really want is a matches set of motor and drive, and preferably a drive that accepts step and direction. Then it's not much more complicated than a stepper.
The main issue, is that different motors use different types of encoders, and the drive usually needs a specific encoder signal. So they most often need to be a matched set.
Granite devices makes some universal drives, but they're not cheap.

So... net net, there is probably no way of using my AC servos without investing another $1500+. I can't find any Yaskawa 400w drives used for less than $500 and if I can't mix steppers and servos then I'd need 3.

I am going to try a Nema 24 motor to see if it fits my actuator frame. My AC servos are 2.35" and my Nema 23 motors are 2.2" wide. Hopefully the Nema 24 frame is also 2.35"....

I will revisit this topic if I find stepper motors to be insufficient to meet my needs but it sounds like AC servos are best bought as a set. Plus, Yaskawa is not a good brand to hunt for deals on eBay....

[Goemon]

First of all you need the proper Yaskawa AC Servo drives. Please list the part number of the servo motors that you have.
Some of the Yaskawa Servos use absolute encoders and some use incremental encoders.
I can help you match up the correct servo drives.
Again please provide the exact model number for your servo motors.
Also, do you want to use step and direction or +- 10V for control?
I upgraded a Denford NovaTurn lathe to Yaskawa AC Servos +- 10V Torque Mode.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES CONNECT ANY AC SERVO MOTOR DIRECTLY TO 220V or 110V WALL OUTLET. YOU WILL DESTROY THE MOTOR.

Iron-Man

My AC servos are Yaskawa SGM-04VGNK51 400W 200v 2.6a 1.27nm 3000/ min

that's everything is says on the label.

I wasn't asking about plugging the motors into the wall outlet. I was asking about the drives. I want to know if a seperate psu is needed.

[Al_The_Man]

[QUOTE=Goemon;2189806. Are AC servo drives universal like stepper drives or would I need Yaskawa drives to run Yaskawa servos?
.[/QUOTE]

Basically there are two types of drives Intelligent, require tuning etc, and non-intelligent where all of the necessary loop functions and calculation is done in the system controller itself, I have always used the latter, non-intelligent, for my projects as it allows simple various DC or BLDC motors with a encoder to be used which makes it very flexible, and such drives as Copley Controls, A-M-C, Aerotech etc which basically are simple transconductance amplifiers which require minimum adjustment.
Also there are many motors that either are compatible, or can easily be made so.
Systems such as Mach etc require a intelligent drive as there is no loop closed in this type of controller. It hands this over to the drive.
Al.

.

[Iron-Man]

My AC servos are Yaskawa SGM-04VGNK51 400W 200v 2.6a 1.27nm 3000/ min

that's everything is says on the label.

I wasn't asking about plugging the motors into the wall outlet. I was asking about the drives. I want to know if a seperate psu is needed.

OK, I was not able to find the exact information on these servos. But the SGM are older models. You need to identify if they are absolute or incremental encoders.
You may be able to use the SGDA Servo Drives. Check Ebay, Sometimes you can find them new, at a low cost. The Speed/Torque versions are usually low in cost but require +-10V for control.( More Complicated)
The easier option is to find SGDA position drive. The A models are 200V, the B are 100V.
Please see attached manual.https://www.yaskawa.com/delegate/get...E-S800-15C.pdf

Please post photos of the motor, wires and the connectors, its quite possible that they use incremental encoders.

To make connection easy, You will need the TA36P terminals, SIGMA Win Software or Keypad programmer, and servo power and encoder cables.
Make sure that if you get the TA36P that it has the cable included.

Iron Man

[mactec54]

My AC servos are Yaskawa SGM-04VGNK51 400W 200v 2.6a 1.27nm 3000/ min

that's everything is says on the label.

I wasn't asking about plugging the motors into the wall outlet. I was asking about the drives. I want to know if a seperate psu is needed.

The Servo Drive needed would be either of the ( 2 ) listed below, you would need a 24vPower supply plus the correct cables to get these motors running, they have a custom unlisted Encoder, so this could be a problem, as the Servo Drives, may also have had custom software to run them

When ever someone buys something like this make sure the package is complete, Motors and Drives are matching, the Encoders you have will be low count PR so won't be very good for CNC operation for Hobby and knowing what you are doing they will be worth a shot to use, they are like 20 to 30 years old, so don't expect them to be like what is available today, still will be better than any Stepper will ever be

SGD04AP

SGDA04AP

[Goemon]

OK, I was not able to find the exact information on these servos. But the SGM are older models. You need to identify if they are absolute or incremental encoders.
You may be able to use the SGDA Servo Drives. Check Ebay, Sometimes you can find them new, at a low cost. The Speed/Torque versions are usually low in cost but require +-10V for control.( More Complicated)
The easier option is to find SGDA position drive. The A models are 200V, the B are 100V.
Please see attached manual.https://www.yaskawa.com/delegate/get...E-S800-15C.pdf

Please post photos of the motor, wires and the connectors, its quite possible that they use incremental encoders.

To make connection easy, You will need the TA36P terminals, SIGMA Win Software or Keypad programmer, and servo power and encoder cables.
Make sure that if you get the TA36P that it has the cable included.

Iron Man

This is a pic of the cables coming off it:

https://s5.postimg.cc/5332vipmv/IMG_4228.jpg

This is the rest of it:

https://s5.postimg.cc/89xmf5hsn/IMG_4230.jpg

[Goemon]

Every diagram I can find shows AC servo drives taking 240v 1ph power in and outputting 240v 3ph for a 200v AC servo motor. If the 240v 1ph power does not come from a 240v wall outlet, then what sort of psu do you need?

[Iron-Man]

Every diagram I can find shows AC servo drives taking 240v 1ph power in and outputting 240v 3ph for a 200v AC servo motor. If the 240v 1ph power does not come from a 240v wall outlet, then what sort of psu do you need?

Do not worry about the PSU. The servo drives will take 220V and power the servo motors with no problem.
Also, the links for the images appear dead. I was not able to access them.
I would suggest getting a 110v to 220v step up converter. I have one that was supplied with a Denford Triac Mill. It works great for my Yaskawa SGDA01 AS Servos.

OK this is the flow:
1. 110v to 220v Step up converter.
2. AC filter for 220V
3. SGDA 04AS P(position control i.e. step and direction)
4. TA36P terminal blocks, for easier set up.
5. Encoder & Power cables. (Still need to know if they are Absolute or Incremental.) You can make you own, I did.
6. Yaskawa JUSP -OP02 Keypad Operator and or SIGMA Win Software.
7. Linux CNC, MACH, PathPilot Software etc.

Iron-Man

[Goemon]

Do not worry about the PSU. The servo drives will take 220V and power the servo motors with no problem.
Also, the links for the images appear dead. I was not able to access them.
I would suggest getting a 110v to 220v step up converter. I have one that was supplied with a Denford Triac Mill. It works great for my Yaskawa SGDA01 AS Servos.

OK this is the flow:
1. 110v to 220v Step up converter.
2. AC filter for 220V
3. SGDA 04AS P(position control i.e. step and direction)
4. TA36P terminal blocks, for easier set up.
5. Encoder & Power cables. (Still need to know if they are Absolute or Incremental.) You can make you own, I did.
6. Yaskawa JUSP -OP02 Keypad Operator and or SIGMA Win Software.
7. Linux CNC, MACH, PathPilot Software etc.

Iron-Man

That's strange on the links. I just tried them and they work for me.... I used to be able to post images directly on this site but then something changed and now it doesn't work.

I don't need step up transformers for my set-up. I have three 240v 50a outlets installed for my CNC machine. It's a lot cheaper to install a new 240v outlet than it is to buy quality transformers. Mine cost less than $20 in parts including all the wiring. I learned how to do it myself so I can add as many as I need. It's very easy and quick.

On your list, what is "item 6" and is it compatible with Linux / Linux CNC?

I have some spare 12 gauge "servo cable" because I ordered the wrong one for my spindle. It's shielded and what-not so I can make my own cables once I know what is needed. Do all three drives connect to the pc separately or are they daisy-chained like on a stepper drive set-up?

How do I find out if my encoders are absolute or incremental?

[Iron-Man]

That's strange on the links. I just tried them and they work for me.... I used to be able to post images directly on this site but then something changed and now it doesn't work.

I don't need step up transformers for my set-up. I have three 240v 50a outlets installed for my CNC machine. It's a lot cheaper to install a new 240v outlet than it is to buy quality transformers. Mine cost less than $20 in parts including all the wiring. I learned how to do it myself so I can add as many as I need. It's very easy and quick.

On your list, what is "item 6" and is it compatible with Linux / Linux CNC?

I have some spare 12 gauge "servo cable" because I ordered the wrong one for my spindle. It's shielded and what-not so I can make my own cables once I know what is needed. Do all three drives connect to the pc separately or are they daisy-chained like on a stepper drive set-up?

How do I find out if my encoders are absolute or incremental?

You may have to contact Yaskawa to find out about the encoders since I cannot see any of the pictures.
Item 6 is the JUSP Keypad Operator made by Yaskawa and is not compatible. It connects directly to the SGDA servo drive, it is used to set the parameters in the servo drive for the servo motors or you can download their software.

If the motors have incremental encoders, then you can use the SGDA servo drives.

Iron-Man

[mactec54]

You may have to contact Yaskawa to find out about the encoders since I cannot see any of the pictures.
Item 6 is the JUSP Keypad Operator made by Yaskawa and is not compatible. It connects directly to the SGDA servo drive, it is used to set the parameters in the servo drive for the servo motors or you can download their software.

If the motors have incremental encoders, then you can use the SGDA servo drives.

Iron-Man

By the photos the motors appear to have Incremental Encoders

[Goemon]

You may have to contact Yaskawa to find out about the encoders since I cannot see any of the pictures.
Item 6 is the JUSP Keypad Operator made by Yaskawa and is not compatible. It connects directly to the SGDA servo drive, it is used to set the parameters in the servo drive for the servo motors or you can download their software.

If the motors have incremental encoders, then you can use the SGDA servo drives.

Iron-Man

Are the SGDA drives the only ones that would work? Should I assume that others like the SGDS will not work?

How much would you pay for a used SGDA max?

can you use a 750w drive with a 400w servo or does it have to be a 400w drive for a 400w servo?