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Thread: Yet Another RF45 Build

  1. #13
    Member WHITEHORZE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet Another RF45 Build

    I have the ENCO YZ-7045. Basically an RF-45 with a 2HP 220V Single phase motor.

    One problem you're going to run into is "Stick-Slip". Dovetail ways were never designed for oil, They need grease to function smoothly. Without the heavier grease to ease friction under slow movement, your table will stick initially, then jump when torque buildup overcomes resistance.


    I have Mach3 , an ESS, and a CNC4PC C-62 BoB
    My motors are 900 once/inch with DG4S 08020 drives from CNCDrive.com
    Still looking at how to mount the system and retain the manual capability.

    Keep us posted.

    Bridgeport TC-22, Landis 1-1/2, RF-45


  2. #14
    Member Cabbagestack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet Another RF45 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Uguessedit View Post
    Any updates on your build? Did you go with cyp or BMI bearings? A lot of folks have used the cheaper bearings with success and .0002 runout. Curious to know and see final build.
    Haven't checked this thread for a good 2 months or so: actually a while back I was about to quit posting on my build thread because for a long time it seemed no one stopped by, no one cared, so I was about to say "Heck with this, no one cares anyway. I'll just post all of it over on Chaski."
    So I'm glad somebody stops in to comment.

    Well you have to wait a fairly amount longer to " know and see final build".
    I have my day job, so its catch as catch can. If I didn't I could probably do all this by the end of August. And I'd really like to because I really want to start on my 7.5 gauge steam locomotive (2-8-2) ! But the mill MUST come first. I can't afford to be side-tracked (and getting sidetracked, btw is just too easy for me)

    I machine parts over at the University makerspace when chance presents itself, for the most part. (otherwise this build wouldn't even be possible unless I bought a second mill). They have a CNC mill I use from time to time

    No, not BMI or cyp (not sure what cyp is). Haven't got to the spindle yet - I put that off for just the time being.

    So I have the 20 mm 5mm lead ball screws, zero-backlash ball nuts , and FK FF supports. The DMM Dyn4 Servos & drives are received. The Centroid Acorn received. Still need 3 micron limit switches ($60 each) Still have to fabricate the X, Y, and Z, ball nut mounts. Still have to lower hole on front of mill base to accomodate the ball screw arrangement ( Y ball nut mount is taller so the relative position of the Y axis ball screw must be lowered in the -Z direction)

    Upcoming will be to install a pair of 75 lb. gas cylinders INSIDE the column per KCJ's build.

    Well that's all for now. Not any pictures (YET)

    Last edited by Cabbagestack; 06-21-2019 at 12:08 AM.


  3. #15
    Member Cabbagestack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet Another RF45 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by WHITEHORZE View Post
    I have the ENCO YZ-7045. Basically an RF-45 with a 2HP 220V Single phase motor.

    One problem you're going to run into is "Stick-Slip". Dovetail ways were never designed for oil, They need grease to function smoothly. Without the heavier grease to ease friction under slow movement, your table will stick initially, then jump when torque buildup overcomes resistance.
    .
    In fact I've never heard of anyone using grease on manual milling machine ways. Heck as an example, the Bridgeports I use over at the University use an automatic oiler with metering units on each way and a smaller metering units on the ball nuts -- utilizing AW32 way oil. Mine will be a manual pumping unit - maybe someday I will make it automatic. I'm definitely not inclined to use grease because it attracts more grit --- on a total loss oil system the oil eventually washes grit away ( as new oil replaces that which is "lost" )
    Stick slip is NOT because of oil vs. grease; it's because of poor lubrication perhaps or poorly adjusted gibs, both perhaps.Maybe the ways are in poor or mediocre shape.

    Last edited by Cabbagestack; 06-21-2019 at 12:03 AM.


  4. #16
    Member Cabbagestack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet Another RF45 Build

    Well I actually DO have a picture or two.
    Here we have the proposed Belt Drive system sporting a 1.8 Kw servo motor.
    the spindle drive adapter w/ associated mounted double pulley isn't done yet. Neither is the step pulley on the servo shaft.
    Everything else is assembled (except the black adjustment handle)

    shout out to arizonavideo for teh belt drive. guys you may want to look to him for a belt drive conversion!

    This uses the original cast-iron top to the mill shown transparent (boy that saved me a lot from making a whole new aluminum top - and I was going to! Whew!
    Yet Another RF45 Build-belt-drive-general-depictionjpg2-jpg

    the big nut thing you see on top of the front spindle pulley is called a Trantorque made by Fenner Drives. It allows you to fasten a pulley onto a shaft by clamping action - no need for broaching keyways, set screw or anything else. And they are removable and reinstall-able !! And when torqued to spec they can handle way more HP than we'll ever develop.. Check them out! There's one on the Servo shaft /pulley too.

    You might ask "what about the draw bar, might it not be tall enough to clear the Trantorque?" Make a new one that is tall enough, not that hard.

    The pulleys are 1:1 and there's a 2:1 step too. Requires two different belts to have on hand. Someone (ninefinger) convinced me to retain the 2:1. I didn't think I really needed it - DMM servos have a flat torque curve. But I thought "well it doesn't cost me a whole lost to implement the 2:1 step, so if I ever need it in a situation requiring a lot more power, I can take off the 1:1 belt and slip on the smaller 2:1 belt." If I have to run a tool at say, 600 rpm, with just 5/8 HP available on the 1:1 ratio, for example.
    I may need it, perhaps. It's there if I ever need it. Doesn't hurt anything and is not overly time consuming to make.

    I really don't see how I'm much worse off now than with a 2 HP 1750 rpm Baldor, VFD and a 2:1 step pulley instead. And then too: as far as the Bridgeports at University: none of them I know of, including the CNC, at 2-1/2 hp go above 3000 rpm or below 250 rpm anyway.

    Another point about my shop: This is all about building scale steam engines and small projects - I'm not a job shop (I already have a dang job!! What do I need another one for ?? Besides I'm retiring end of next year). So lighter cuts are the order of the day. I don't care if it takes 1-1/2 hours to do 45 minute job. So what. Not to mention if you're running a slow program takes a long time...well if you're building say a 7.5" gauge steam loco, there many things you can be doing in the mean time -- many!

    Food for thought.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Yet Another RF45 Build-belt-drive-general-depictionjpg2-jpg  
    Last edited by Cabbagestack; 06-21-2019 at 10:54 AM. Reason: I'm not a job shop (I already have a dang job!! What do I need another one for ??).


  5. #17
    Member Cabbagestack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet Another RF45 Build

    Now notice the spindle drive adapter in previous post (that has the big Trantorque on it !!).

    I had to find a spline of some sort to fit the spindle's male spline shaft. Metric 6-23-28. Looked high and low. Sure I could have got one from Europe way expensive but they are very difficult to find here. I definitely didn't want setup a dividing head on my South Bend shaper to cut the internal spline !! Real PIA.
    I should have thought of this 6 months ago :
    Yet Another RF45 Build-waterjet-spline-insert-jpg Yet Another RF45 Build-spline-insert-jpg

    This insert was cut out of a piece of scrap SS on the waterjet at the University !! Turned out nearly perfect within .003". So now all you do is turn a mandrel on the lathe to fit the ID of the spline insert and then turn the OD for a press fit into the spindle drive adapter. Process came in REAL HANDY !! Cost me $14 -- fine by me!! I love it! they have to charge for the Garnet abrasive.
    So when I do my 54" long steam loco frames, I'll waterjet them - will SAVE A TON of setups on the mill and machining.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Yet Another RF45 Build-spline-insert-jpg   Yet Another RF45 Build-waterjet-spline-insert-jpg  
    Last edited by Cabbagestack; 06-21-2019 at 09:56 AM.


  6. #18
    Member Cabbagestack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet Another RF45 Build

    Well, one more picture....

    You can see here the spline insert (light blue) shown above in post #17, pressed into the spindle drive adapter, pointed to by red arrow
    Yet Another RF45 Build-belt-drive-general-depictionjpg3-jpg
    You also can get a better look at the pulley arrangement; notice also the Servo/pulley has a 7/8" Trantorque as well. Hidden behind the buttonhead cap screw, but it is there, hard to see. I may or may not the use larger Trantorque on the spindle-just not completely sure, but I am definitely keeping the 7/8"Trantorque on the Servo pulley.

    And I may go for a 2:1 and 1:2 step pulley arrangement as originally planned. Don't know. Mulling over. That will be the very last thing to be decided. And even so, I think I will make TWO 2:1 step pulleys during the machining stage and just set one aside. That way if I ever decide that a 2:1 and 1:2 step pulley arrangement is better, I already have the stuff on hand.

    Well so long, that's all for now, folks!

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Yet Another RF45 Build-belt-drive-general-depictionjpg3-jpg  
    Last edited by Cabbagestack; 06-21-2019 at 05:12 PM.


  7. #19
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    Default

    You can also purchase a 6 spline PTO adapter for $20 off eBay and it’s 3” long to boot. They fit perfect and don’t need to make at that point. I’ve press fit them into pulleys and spindle wrenches and they hold forever. That’s how I’ve made all my spindle collet wrenches. Machine a block of aluminum into a handle, bore a hole, and press in place the. Run a shell mill over both sides for that finishing touch.

    QUOTE=Cabbagestack;2302302]Now notice the spindle drive adapter in previous post (that has the big Trantorque on it !!).

    I had to find a spline of some sort to fit the spindle's male spline shaft. Metric 6-23-28. Looked high and low. Sure I could have got one from Europe way expensive but they are very difficult to find here. I definitely didn't want setup a dividing head on my South Bend shaper to cut the internal spline !! Real PIA.
    I should have thought of this 6 months ago :
    Yet Another RF45 Build-waterjet-spline-insert-jpg Yet Another RF45 Build-spline-insert-jpg

    This insert was cut out of a piece of scrap SS on the waterjet at the University !! Turned out nearly perfect within .003". So now all you do is turn a mandrel on the lathe to fit the ID of the spline insert and then turn the OD for a press fit into the spindle drive adapter. Process came in REAL HANDY !! Cost me $14 -- fine by me!! I love it! they have to charge for the Garnet abrasive.
    So when I do my 54" long steam loco frames, I'll waterjet them - will SAVE A TON of setups on the mill and machining.[/QUOTE]



  8. #20
    Member Cabbagestack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet Another RF45 Build

    Quote Originally Posted by Uguessedit View Post
    You can also purchase a 6 spline PTO adapter for $20 off eBay and it’s 3” long to boot. They fit perfect and don’t need to make at that point. I’ve press fit them into pulleys and spindle wrenches and they hold forever. That’s how I’ve made all my spindle collet wrenches.
    Have a link to that 6-spline adapter so I know what you are talking about ?

    *as an aside when I post a quotation I try not to include all the OP's pictures and so forth, only just the essential pertinent part of the OP's post --- else it needlessly wastes bandwidth, takes up too much room in the thread for redundant stuff. Just sayin.



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