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    Default XZero users group

    If you are experienced cnc user and not interested in becoming a mentor, this thread may be waste of your time.

    My intention in starting this thread is for new XZero (other machines as well) owners who do not have any cnc experience to come and help each other. I hope at least 7-10 folks like me will continue to contribute here and we will grow together. If we get any mentor on this thread, it will be a big bonus. If this thread progress as I envision, it will also serve new users in the future.

    OK so let begin. I got my XZero machine delivered and assembled. It took me few weeks to gather tooling like different bits, work holders, desk top sander (did not need it before cnc machine) etc. etc. I was planning to use only Onsrud bits and they do have a very good presence on the ebay where they sell discontinued, surplus special order, and old stocks at very reasonable price (some time better then imports). While talking to Onsrud tech support, I found out that Whiteside bits are also good and I bought few of them as well (of course on ebay) and their tech support is also very good.

    Made first carving sign and wanted to make the nice border but I think either my work holder were not tight enough (failed twice) or I was trying to take too much in one pass. Oh well ... I learned something. Did not break the bit or machine :-)

    PS: I did think about sanity of starting a new thread when we do have main Xzero thread. I hope in this thread we will talk about our learning experience and what we are able to achieve with the machine instead of machine itself.

    XZero users group-experiment07252012-jpg

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    Default bit organization

    I am storing recently acquired bits in cardboard boxes but soon I will forget how I organized them (few more bits are on their way but this is it for now). How do people organize bit storage? Guess I can simply take a piece of wood and create 1/2 inch deep holes or squares to hold bits or bit boxes but if there is a better way, I will like to know about it.

    XZero users group-bit-organization-jpg


    One thing more .. after use, do you oil the bit and collet and nut before storage?

    Thanks



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    Azam -

    I think this thread is a nice idea and look forward to participating. I have received almost all of my ViperXZ components and hope to have it together so I can start breaking bits soon. Congrats on getting to the cutting stage!

    -John



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    John,

    I am planning to spend next couple of months learning the mechanics of machining with steadily complex baby projects before I start using the machine for more complex multipart project. I am slow in current phase due to my health ... may be tomorrow will be a good day and I may have nicely bordered, patterned background name plate :-)

    Welcome to the thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by jbarnhardt View Post
    Azam -

    I think this thread is a nice idea and look forward to participating. I have received almost all of my ViperXZ components and hope to have it together so I can start breaking bits soon. Congrats on getting to the cutting stage!

    -John




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    Not so fast :-)

    Few things did work as I was expecting (for a change). Round over bit worked as expected. Texture also came out as I was expecting.

    More things did not work out ... I thought texture will first pocket and then start texturing ... bad too assumption but now have more confidence on onsrud bit. Even cutting through 5/8 inch in hard wood, bit did not break.

    Second issue ... I changed from roundover to 1/4 inch bit and jogged all three axis, touched bit to the wood piece and pressed z zero not sure why but y axis shifted.

    Third issue .. text did not come out as expected. Either I used the wrong bit or may be above two issues have something to do with this error.

    Good session, made mistakes and now take a step back and understand, learn and perhaps try a simpler project without texturing.


    XZero users group-07272012-2-jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by azam1959 View Post
    John,

    ... I may have nicely bordered, patterned background name plate :-)


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails XZero users group-07272012-1-jpg  


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    to understand the third issue, i made the project very very very simple and made the fonts bigger to understand the issue. can somebody explain why S in the carving picture is broken from the top. is it because of wrong bit or using wrong conventional/climbing method. wood has lot of splinters. if you have seen this before, i can use some help. do not worry about other parts of this project, this is just for learning.

    XZero users group-carving-issue-jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by azam1959 View Post
    Not so fast :-)

    Few things did work as I was expecting (for a change). Round over bit worked as expected. Texture also came out as I was expecting.

    More things did not work out ... I thought texture will first pocket and then start texturing ... bad too assumption but now have more confidence on onsrud bit. Even cutting through 5/8 inch in hard wood, bit did not break.

    Second issue ... I changed from roundover to 1/4 inch bit and jogged all three axis, touched bit to the wood piece and pressed z zero not sure why but y axis shifted.

    Third issue .. text did not come out as expected. Either I used the wrong bit or may be above two issues have something to do with this error.

    Good session, made mistakes and now take a step back and understand, learn and perhaps try a simpler project without texturing.


    XZero users group-07272012-2-jpg




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    Hi Azam,

    Just noticed the s's on the last image are slightly different. Are they supposed to be like that?



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    Towards the center there is small piece which is not machined. I suspect a piece of offset I selected to carve the letter is left behind. This does not bother me because I think I can carve much easily and more cleanly with v bits. I am using 1/4 inch end mill to understand why upper part of S is broken, this will help correct my machining method for future delicate projects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ven0r View Post
    Hi Azam,

    Just noticed the s's on the last image are slightly different. Are they supposed to be like that?




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    only way to understand the issue was to recreate it. i made simple carving using two tools as before. x and y axis did hold their position during second tool machining ... other variable earlier was too much pressure on the machine because of my misunderstanding of texturing tool path ... i plung in 1/4 end mill for 3/4 inch in my first decent piece and cut the wood for about an inch and then I took the bit out. jogged the machine to x and y to zero position and machine was not at the place i started. i noticed spindle was little tilted .... i have to find out which screws i need to tight (beside my head) and may be i will put lock tight ... but issue is resolved now. here is the first good piece i ruined to find this issue ... i am sure there will be many more (issues ).

    XZero users group-issueresolved0728-jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by azam1959 View Post

    Second issue ... I changed from roundover to 1/4 inch bit and jogged all three axis, touched bit to the wood piece and pressed z zero not sure why but y axis shifted.




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    Sometimes the poor of accuracy in the cut may be due to several factors: please check the following:

    1. Excessive feed and depth in the cutting tool. There is a very fine balance between roughing and finishing. Occasionally some models require one or two rough processes, as well as one or two and even three finishing processes. All this depends on the fineness of detail you require.

    2. There is much vibration in the structure of the machine. Place rubber anti-vibration systems (neoprene or silicone). Also fixed to the machine a rigid surface that helps to stiffen the machine. Use a metal table top. This helps to stiffen the machine.

    3. Adjusting screws. While you should tighten the screws on aluminum threads, I recommend using pressure washer and high strength loctite thread lock.

    I think this can help.



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    Quote Originally Posted by mecosv View Post
    Sometimes the poor of accuracy in the cut may be due to several factors: please check the following:

    1. Excessive feed and depth in the cutting tool. There is a very fine balance between roughing and finishing. Occasionally some models require one or two rough processes, as well as one or two and even three finishing processes. All this depends on the fineness of detail you require.

    2. There is much vibration in the structure of the machine. Place rubber anti-vibration systems (neoprene or silicone). Also fixed to the machine a rigid surface that helps to stiffen the machine. Use a metal table top. This helps to stiffen the machine.

    3. Adjusting screws. While you should tighten the screws on aluminum threads, I recommend using pressure washer and high strength loctite thread lock.

    I think this can help.
    none of the above. what i see in that image is likely one of 3 things:
    - the program is actually writen like that (sloppy cam software).
    - the program is set ofr a different sized tool than the one used.
    - the servos are still not tuned correctly and the motors are over running the programmed path.

    or it could just be stalling and loosing position by the last comment from azam. seems strange to stall with the amount of power it has though.

    could also be the work pice moving if its not clamped right...

    ok, so i guess it could be lots of things still



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    Thanks. I understand 1 and 3 point and will follow through.

    If you do not mind, can you spend one more minute on point 2. I do have aluminium table top and put working material on top of scrap piece to save aluminium top. You are right about flexibility there, I do see working piece pressing down during x zero process. I do have lot of granite tiles lying around, should I lay granite on top of aluminium top? Only issue is I do not know how to tie working material or on top of granite. Other issue may granite is too heavy and it sure will provide the stiffness but may demange the machine. I am using adjustable wheels on six legs and at this point instead of wheel I think a hard rubber or similar item is touching the floor. I think we are at least covered in this area.

    Thanks again and I will follow through your advise on adding finishing passes to get better results and tightening screws and using pressure washers/strong locktight (I am already using it for the screws which are becoming loose and I have to put them again).

    Regards,

    Quote Originally Posted by mecosv View Post
    Sometimes the poor of accuracy in the cut may be due to several factors: please check the following:

    1. Excessive feed and depth in the cutting tool. There is a very fine balance between roughing and finishing. Occasionally some models require one or two rough processes, as well as one or two and even three finishing processes. All this depends on the fineness of detail you require.

    2. There is much vibration in the structure of the machine. Place rubber anti-vibration systems (neoprene or silicone). Also fixed to the machine a rigid surface that helps to stiffen the machine. Use a metal table top. This helps to stiffen the machine.

    3. Adjusting screws. While you should tighten the screws on aluminum threads, I recommend using pressure washer and high strength loctite thread lock.

    I think this can help.




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    ihavenofish,

    i do hear a lot of good things about this cam program but for me this is entry point as it is the easiest to use and integrated with the cad. planning on graduating from this cam in few months and using more complex cad/cam package.

    i thought tool size was wrong too but double and tippled checked and then tried a bigger font to see what is going on. i am not an expert here but it seems that taking bigger pieces on hard wood take more then intended (narrow pieces on font, like top of S get screwed up) and smoothing pass may help. still learning and i think this particular cam package does no offer smoothing pass but it not a big deal to achieve this by creating separate smoothing tool path.

    i have total control on the depth if I want to keep the skin on the bottom or cut entire piece with tabs without having a scratch on the bottom. i do have long way to go to do correct z zero and recently found that tools bottom parts are not even. i am sure there is room for improvement for all axis calibration but need to go for low hanging fruit first.

    thanks a lot for your input and please continue to help and advise.

    Quote Originally Posted by ihavenofish View Post
    none of the above. what i see in that image is likely one of 3 things:
    - the program is actually writen like that (sloppy cam software).
    - the program is set ofr a different sized tool than the one used.
    - the servos are still not tuned correctly and the motors are over running the programmed path.

    or it could just be stalling and loosing position by the last comment from azam. seems strange to stall with the amount of power it has though.

    could also be the work pice moving if its not clamped right...

    ok, so i guess it could be lots of things still




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    What software are you using?

    It looks to me like the machine is either flexing a lot, or the servo's are way out of position.

    Also, all those tool marks in the flat, pocket area around the letters leads me to think that either the material is not held firmly, or the machine is flexing.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    I agree to check the tuning of the servo and the clamping pieces This is something that not too well done.

    Now, a good CAM software, which generates a clean and reliable code, and also allowing explore variations in roughing and finishing methods can help.

    Note that with large depths of cut and feeds, you can generate bending router supports or table tops, and the emergence of micro-vibrations that can affect the quality of the cuts, the final model and des adjust the machine, including the steps of the servo .

    The wood chips that seem torn and left in the model, I get the feeling that it takes less progress in cutting as the cutting tool could skip the chips and leave the way they appear. Added to this, check the sharpness of your tools, especially when you give the finish.



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    Gerry,
    Thanks. Here is the detail you asked for hope I will hear back on how to improve.

    Machine is running very smoothly ... no jerks, no noise except for spindle. I see that piece I clamped do bend down even on the corner when I try to do z zero. Piece I am working is ash (I think) and is one inch think. Below this piece is also one inch thick ash piece to protect aluminium top. I am using four work piece mounts to tie the bottom piece with aluminium t slots and using two screws to tie top (work) piece to the bottom (sacrifice piece). There is no movement in x or y direction but there is flexibility in the z direction. Both sacrifice piece and work piece have gone though planner on both side and I can not move them vertically by hand but do see them flexing during z zero operation. Any idea how to make them more stiff ? Bottom piece is about 18-20 inch long and 6 inch wide. Top piece is 12 in long and 6 inch wide. My table top has 55 inch span and I do have L channel reinforcement along both the profile.

    As for tool ... i got wrong 1/2 inch collet in my set (vendor is replacing it) and I am using 12mm collet for half an inch shank. I really have to press hard for shank to fit to collet which I do understand. For 1/4 end mill (whose mark are visible), I am using 1/4 collet. To my surprise 1/4 end mill was very loose inside the collet till last couple of nut threads. Is this normal?

    Flexing is also coming from screws not being tight ... I move spindle by hand. I found loose screw issues at the very end of yesterday's session. Next time I am able to go down, this will be the first thing I will handle.

    As for SW, I am using aspire for now but hoping to move to autocad inventor and inventorcam in few months (that will be about 10-12 hours of machining experience for me).

    thanks


    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    What software are you using?

    It looks to me like the machine is either flexing a lot, or the servo's are way out of position.

    Also, all those tool marks in the flat, pocket area around the letters leads me to think that either the material is not held firmly, or the machine is flexing.




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    Thank you very much. Ihavenofish did mention about servo tuning in terms of movement calibration. Do you mean the same or servo inertia parameters? I am been told that servos I am using do have some self tinning capability for inertia parameter.

    I understand your comment about micro-vibration and impact on the finish. Is solution a finish path with sharp tools and less aggressive cut? I understand your first message and I think it is very good input and I will follow through.

    Guess I will have to worry about dust shoe earlier then I was expecting :-) I can easily buy them but was hoping to learn enough to make one for myself but if chips are effecting the quality, then I will just get one off the shelf. Issue I am facing is vacuum cleaner and PC/Servo are on the same circuit and in the past other appliances did not like to work with vacuum cleaner (wiring or fuse is not designed for this much current). Guess I can run the extension wire from separate circuit to the vacuum.


    Quote Originally Posted by mecosv View Post
    I agree to check the tuning of the servo and the clamping pieces This is something that not too well done.

    Now, a good CAM software, which generates a clean and reliable code, and also allowing explore variations in roughing and finishing methods can help.

    Note that with large depths of cut and feeds, you can generate bending router supports or table tops, and the emergence of micro-vibrations that can affect the quality of the cuts, the final model and des adjust the machine, including the steps of the servo .

    The wood chips that seem torn and left in the model, I get the feeling that it takes less progress in cutting as the cutting tool could skip the chips and leave the way they appear. Added to this, check the sharpness of your tools, especially when you give the finish.




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    Wanted to take advantage of experts willingness to help. Went to basement and took couple of pictures and found one more thing to improve on.

    First picture shows the clamp and screw I mentioned and while taking the picture I do remember flex comments from experts here and of course second picture shows that my bottom part is not totally parallel to the aluminium top. I will just go and get mdf for sacrifice board.

    THANKS for the help.

    XZero users group-clamp-setup-jpg

    XZero users group-bottom-part-straight-jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by azam1959 View Post
    Gerry,
    Thanks. Here is the detail you asked for hope I will hear back on how to improve.

    Machine is running very smoothly ... no jerks, no noise except for spindle. I see that piece I clamped do bend down even on the corner when I try to do z zero. Piece I am working is ash (I think) and is one inch think. Below this piece is also one inch thick ash piece to protect aluminium top. I am using four work piece mounts to tie the bottom piece with aluminium t slots and using two screws to tie top (work) piece to the bottom (sacrifice piece). There is no movement in x or y direction but there is flexibility in the z direction. Both sacrifice piece and work piece have gone though planner on both side and I can not move them vertically by hand but do see them flexing during z zero operation. Any idea how to make them more stiff ? Bottom piece is about 18-20 inch long and 6 inch wide. Top piece is 12 in long and 6 inch wide. My table top has 55 inch span and I do have L channel reinforcement along both the profile.

    As for tool ... i got wrong 1/2 inch collet in my set (vendor is replacing it) and I am using 12mm collet for half an inch shank. I really have to press hard for shank to fit to collet which I do understand. For 1/4 end mill (whose mark are visible), I am using 1/4 collet. To my surprise 1/4 end mill was very loose inside the collet till last couple of nut threads. Is this normal?

    Flexing is also coming from screws not being tight ... I move spindle by hand. I found loose screw issues at the very end of yesterday's session. Next time I am able to go down, this will be the first thing I will handle.

    As for SW, I am using aspire for now but hoping to move to autocad inventor and inventorcam in few months (that will be about 10-12 hours of machining experience for me).

    thanks




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    that clamp is definitely suspect. not enough support for such a big piece of wood id imagine. could explain why a heavy cut will move.

    i think you have to go about this methodically, change one thing at a time. lock down the wood so it definitely cant move, then run again. if its still bad, then check if the motors are actually loosing position. marke 0/0 on the table with tape and a marker, and see if after the program is done it goes back to 0.

    if no, then its going to be something wrong with the servo setup. it is either losing its place, or dropping steps from mach3.



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    I'm talking about both. The idea is that your calibration accuracy and repeatability have to be effective and have very little deviation. You have to check with a motion phantom if the machine to be sent to a place of your router, it returns exactly to it. If it does not, recheck your settings on servos.

    It is important to note that aggressive cuts should only be used for roughing. This involves a lot of effort on the part you are cutting and on itself. In this sense the clamps should be more robust to withstand shear stress.

    Finishing cuts should be used with a slower and smaller interval between cuts to enter these places do not stay much unwanted material. This should be done in very good tool. A better option is to give one or two cuts in opposite angles to improve the detail that these cutting. For this you have to be very calibrated machine on the go.

    Now on the top table you could think of two issues: the flatness and rigidity. From what I see in your last photo I do not see the above table bolted to the beams of the router. This single issue could make the overall structure of your router has greater rigidity. This could be consulted XZero.

    One option to correct the flatness and contribute to the stiffness, is to strengthen the table top below two to three beams or aluminum profiles with a ratio 1 to 3 (thickness, width) and can be bolted to the table and sides front and rear of the machine.



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