Your prefered machine. - Page 4


View Poll Results: What is your preferd machine out of these six

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  • Mazak

    51 14.25%
  • Mori Seki

    92 25.70%
  • Haas

    84 23.46%
  • Okuma

    68 18.99%
  • Daewoo

    20 5.59%
  • Bridgeport / Hardinge

    43 12.01%
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Thread: Your prefered machine.

  1. #37
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    I have used both Mazak's and Okuma's (lathes and mills) in an engineering shop specialising in low-quanitity-batch mining parts,
    based on speed of job change-over I would prefer Mazak's.
    The Mazak Integrex lathes are practically a license to print money (when set with a part shuttle and GL gantry loader), especially when using Mazatrol to produce quick programs for non-complex parts.
    95% of the milling jobs I do require only 2.5D machining (drilling, pocket-milling, tapping, facing etc),
    so using Mazatrol's conversational 2.5D unit programming is a hell of alot quicker than Okuma's IGF (or having to look thru lines of ISO G-code).
    BUT... Experience has shown me that Okuma's are a more solid machine than Mazak's, and the service from Okuma Australia is a million times better than the Australian Mazak representative.
    Should I ever start my own workshop I would buy a Mazak - but based on the idea of never crashing the machine (ha! unlikely )...
    Okuma with a good cam-package would see great things happen though.



  2. #38
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    This is gonna take a while, lol. Started running machines in 1979. Last machinist job was 1988-GE River Works Lynn, Mass. Been selling cnc since then(good job IUE201). I have worked directly for the factory at Tornos and also DMG. I worked for both So-Cal Haas distrubutors, HFO-Torrance (Ellison Machy) and MTS- Anaheim (3 diff times). I worked for a japanese importer selling Roku-Roku,Takamatsu and Horkos mostly in 20+ machine fully automated cell lines to 1st/2nd/3rd tier automotive suppliers.I have worked for SoCal distributors selling:Cin-Milacron, Bridgeport, Okamoto, Wasino, Charmilles,Tsugami,Kitamuura,Okamoto,Hamaii,Yasda,Viper,YCM(Supermaxx), Kia,Leadwell, Hyundai, Hwacheon, Ikegai, Kiwa, Kira,Dainichi, Hitachi Seiki, Hitachi Wire,Dah-Lih,Toyoda, Hermle, Traub, WFL,Anca,Weldon, Tschudin, Koyo,Nicholas Correa, Romi,Samsung, to name a few.

    I currently sell Kitamuura, Hermle, YCM, Okamoto,Omax, WFL,Eurotech, Lico, Spinner as the main lines.
    Most of the machines being mentioned here, and all the poll machines are what I would term your "popular brands".
    The 3 japanese machines in the poll are easily 5 times better than the others. I will start with with them, even though I never sold the brands. I have been in literally thousands of shops from New England to Mid/SoCal and hands down the most reliable machines I have ever seen are Mori's. Not even close. Examples: The Byran Co had 30+ Moris (mostly TC's and 3 or 4 MC's). When I last called on that account in 1999, their oldest machine a 1978 SL1A. 21 years, 30 or so machines, ZERO service calls. Another shop in So. Fullerton had over a dozen and the oldest was 18 years new.The ONLY service issue was on one of the oldest machines, the back-up battery crapped out and they lost all the parameters/ladder pages. That was the norm. And they can rip too, ain't no light duty machine, for sure. Okuma seem to be more reliable than Mazak and easily take a deeper cut. LM schmellM, box ways are better.

    Haas? What can I say about Haas? I love em and I hate em.Absolute piles of junk design-wise. You can scratch metal with them, lol. Seriously, very light duty.Pull the covers off and see how they are built and belly-aching laughter is damn near impossible to subdue.Undersized drive motors advertised with false or mis-leading (at-best) power ratings.Yep folks, Haas learned from Fadal and came up with a new machine tool rating standard: PEAK horsepower. Read the manual you get AFTER you buy the machine. Where the rest of the world agreed to an industry protcol "MTDR" (machine tool duty rated at 30 minutes use per hour at the stated number) Fadal and Haas "peak ratings" are vaguely rated at "around" 1 minute. Undersized ballscrews anchored with bad designed dinky lil bolt-on pillow blocks.Hell, the Taiwanese can't contain their laughter. Not a single ground mating surface anywhere to be found on the structure. In fact, the only grinders they had when I visited dozens of times were a reishaur gear grinder for the Rotary Products/machine gear boxes and 1 CNC cylindrical (shigiya?) for making their spindles. Hand scraping??He he...ha ha, STOP. Get a plant tour and see for yourself. The will gladly give anyone a complete tour. I highly recommend it, it is very impressive.
    Speaking of tour.Gene is a very smart man, nothing but top quality Japanese stuff making his machines. If only he invested in at least 1 Waldrich-Coburg and 1 Yasda could you then put him at the same level as the Japanese and Germans.Even YCM have those machines, as do a few other Taiwan builders.When I left in 04 they where just finishing installation of a 2 story pallet stacker multi machine Mori HMC cell rumored to be well over 2 million bucks.

    In defense of Haas, he took Fadals already industry best service model and trumped it times 4. Hands down, the best service you will ever see, bar none. Next day guaranteed is nothing. If you called your machine in before noon and then called me (salesman) and said if we don't get there this afternoon or the machine will be yanked to the parking lot for me to pickup, I'd have a service van there within hours. And not just a guy there with diagnostic tools to figure out the problem, but a van full of just about every part needed to get it running. THAT DAY. How do they know what to carry? Statistics culled and knowing the machines are structurally deficient. As a salesman I was required to call every customer the week following a service call and record a 10 question "service survey" and, like clockwork, mere weeks after the new warranty expired I'd be calling you many times a year. I had 1 customer in Cerritos that I called every single week during my 2 years to fill out multiple service surveys. Granted, he had 18 machines but none where older than 3 years and he only cut aluminum. He was forking out at least 10ger for service every freaking month!! His company was no exception, this was the norm. And to be honest, he was happy with the machines.All he did was make money cuz we kept them up and running. And no, Joe Blow single machine user wasn't treated any different.
    Haas are what they are and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you are intellectually honest with your expectations about its capabilities. Gene Haas is a great American success story. Power to him, I will always root for him.
    Bridgeport(BMI) and Hardinge? Sadly, for all intent purposes,gone.
    BMI made really nice VMC'c during their short foray into that market. Ground and hand scraped column to base surfaces. Check out their table top, ground surface. Never gonna see that on a Haas. The head had a spindle bore that was ground and then they lapped the spindle cartridge into each machine. yes, their UK and CT plants had Yasda's.Light duty machines compared to the Japanese but beautifully built. Alas, that stupid pile of crap DX32 CNC. All that time and loving care put into the structure nullified by cheap arse drives/motors/electrics. By the time they smartened up and moved over to Yaskawa drives/motor and then Fanuc CNC, it was too late as Haas and Fadal blew right past them. If you can find the late 90's-2002 machines, they can be had for cheap and there's nothin to be ashamed of.

    Finally, Hardinge.That once grand place Elmira, relegated to making only collets/spindle tooling. That next Super Precision you buy is coming directly from Mainland........China that is. They have decided there isn't enough profit in the Taiwan re-badged machines and have a brandy new plant in mainland.
    Speaking of Taiwan? They have matched and maybe even surpassed Korea. Hell, they make a damn good Japanese machine. Did anyone go to AeroDef and see that 5 Axis c-frame vertical machining center Toyot.rrrrAweaYamawhatzi? in Selways booth? It was right next to a regular 3 axis ToyoYamaAweawhosi YEKT VMC with its inner covers removed displaying top notch Japan identical construction. Missed it? Have a look at your nearest YCM dealer to see the proper way to house ballscrews.And real ballscrews at that.

    Didn't even get around to the highend Jap/Euro machines like Maatsuura, Nakamuura,Mitsui Seiki,Kitamuura,Makino,Hermle,WFL and more.

    If I can afford it,Mori or better.

    If I am scraping pennies, nothing wrong with Haas. BUT, if you can fork over a few bucks a day more and are not blinded by origin, you best go look at the good quality builders from Taiwan cuz several famous Japanese builders proudly afix their nameplate to them.
    Make sure they are a true builder and not an integrator slappin parts together from the cheapest/fastest source they can. I am biased of course but, YCM pour their own iron in their on-site foundry and machine every major and most minor metal stuffs on site. Yes, they have a Yasda and a W-C. I hear the same about my tough competitor Awea/Yama Seiki. Was in a job shop in Gardena in March that puts the tough material and tight tolerance work on them cuz their relatively young Haas cannot do it. Femco and Leadwell have outstanding reputations. In fact, the best/most reliable Cincy-Milacron turning centers I ever sold, Talon 208 and 210, where re-badged Leadwells!! Yang is another one that comes to mind. Honor Seiki, Vision Wide and You-Ji are fantastic.Ganesh (they are Taiwan) have a great rep on the west coast
    I am sure theres a few more. Stick with the ones mentioned most, offered by the larger and more established dealers.

    All said and done, all 6 machines have their purpose. It's what you want/need and can afford that matters.

    Whew, I'm outta breath. And, to make a short story long....lmao.



  3. #39
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    I've always been a Mori-Seiki guy when I can afford to. You'll pay a premium for their machines but the accuracy, rigidity and service are all top quality. Okuma would be next in line for me, but lately they've seem to have a problem with their dealer body. As I said before, I've got both and they are both good money makers.

    Haas is "ok" if you're on a tight budget. It will get your parts done, IF you don't push it too hard. Fadal has never impressed me. Box ways mean little if you're constantly smoking spindles and drives.

    Doosan has come a long way. So have the taiwan builders. I had an early 80s Victor TNS-2 lathe that I absolutely HATED. Horrible machine. But the newer ones look way better.

    American machines are an anathema. There are so few actually made here.



  4. #40
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    If your a business man, buy smart. Not in this order: least expensive, least maintenence, best service, best accuracy, longevity.

    I personaly want a machine that works is cheap and makes my parts. Don't care the name, or brand and no matter what any yahoo tells you 5 cheap machines will outperform 1 expensive one in the throughput areana every time (same horsepower etc.) I've worked with all the major awesomeness awesome machines and they are great hands down but overkill for most jobs and definitely too expensive if your not doing sub tenth work.

    They cut metal, with varying degrees of accuracy. so get the one that fits the bill for the cheapest.

    I buy haas and if I can get em cheap I buy used. And I've made lots of money with the ones I have.

    Proof is in the profits. be a business man or go work for someone else.

    thanks
    Michael T.
    "If you don't stand for something, chances are, you'll fall for anything!"


  5. #41
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    okuma
    mori seiki
    nakamura
    hitachi seiki

    the rest ?



  6. #42
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    Mazak MV-550 Mazatrol M32, for $5000.00 moving cost with Pallet Changer from Triump KC KS
    Thats what I'm talking about!

    Steal it and we can make it work!!!



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    Is there anything in the very large portfolio of Mazak that Mori has no equivalent (aside from the laser machines)?
    Also, what is the general opinion here about the SNK machines?



  8. #44
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    Good post by the guy from CA. It was pretty much on point and I have bellowed in laughter at whats under the sheet metal of the Haas. That said the right answer is always it depends. Otherwise there would be no need to have salespeople and application engineers. Mazak as a stand alone machine does not hold a candle in accuracy and rigidity to the Okuma, Mori, Makino. With that I am not sure why you lumped Makino in with Matsura who is a specialty builder now but I it is not possible to keep up with everything. Mori is the best in Turning hands down. Makino in the best in Milling. This is based on if you put two machines side by side and ran a somewhat demading part for 6 months or more 12 plus hours a day. That is not to say that in certain applications other machines would provide a better value but Makino is not a specialty builder. They are top 3 in Japanese Horizontals. The fact that they choose to make an EDM product rather than a turning product (sticking to the Die/Mold Roots) is the only reason you don't see more of them then Mori or Okuma. You will never get a Makino that is stripped down to save on cost. They have operations in Singapore for building lower cost models, but these are Makino factories and they put out machines that are still better than the rest for the applications they are aimed at. YCM is the elite Tawainese Milling machine. In certain applications it has passed the Korean's but, I will put a post 2005 Doosan against the YCM and it will be tough to argue in either direction. Doosan Lathes are in the top 3 world wide based on independent testing and customer feedback. I would take a Puma over any machine other than a Mori in multi-task turning but again it will be based on the specific needs of the customer. Kitimura and Toyoda (japanese built) have always been very high end Japnese machines. I think they have fell behind as I am seeing these machines fall short sitting next to Mori's Makinos and yes Matsuras. Okuma has the second best Japanese built vertical in my opinion but they are not as good in horizontal applications. I just watched on fall way short against an OKK in deep boring where the Okuma had a lot of chatter compared to the OKK. Same taper and configuration for the most part. Mazak can compete on the platform of innovation, value, the fact they are much better than some alternatives but from the standpoint of construction they fall short. For many applications Mazak will provide the most value, although I would be hesitant to go with such a different control. I see customers who despite poor service stick with Mazak because to learn a new control is a big task and disruptive to production. I don;t see this as often with the Okuma control as I don't think they intentional try to use control as a tool for repeat business when Mazak might. There is a lot to say and again the fella from CA has very good insight and an opinion that can be respected as an industry insider.



  9. #45
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    Default Makino

    Hello and what about makino?
    I would like to vote for makino.



  10. #46
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    Default the problem is

    The problem is that the people who run them do not usually have the luxury of running apples to apples comparisons to each machine. If you work in a shop that buys a new haas and the other machines are older, they are going to thing the Haas is great. The control graphics are neat like an X box and it is easy. The service shows up and replaces the part that can be bought at the hardwared store, so the machine is down long enough for a long break but not long enough to be sent home or put on deburring/sweeping duty.
    I have a shop that has Makino;s from the earlly to mid 90'. They bought new Mazaks in 08. What do you think the guys want? The owner is smart enough to know that the Makino's have lasted this long for a reason and are night and day in Die/Mold, but if was up to the guys running them, it would be Mazak. Many people do not know Doosan today. Post 2006 they are the number 3 builder in the world and number on consumer of Fanuc controls. The Puma turning machines go head to head with the best in Mori and behind them is left several high end japanese machines that are not in the same class as a Puma. I understand they did not make their own fancy contol with graphics and cartoons for every application but when it comes to productivity they are among the best. In an apples to apples test cut, they are the worst nightmare of Okuma and Nakamura becuase the price has not caugt up with the demand. Despite their great success you still have the guy that ran a 2003 Doosan Mecatec built by someone else or an old Daewoo mill that has had a spindle issue but post 2006 Pumas go in and the customer never looks back. My guess is they have the most repeat business because for the price they can't be touched.
    Mazak and Haas do the most advertising and have cult followings. They can put iron aroung any control and it will be considered good by some. Its not that people don't know what they are talking about, its that there is not enough information to form an opinion otherwise.



  11. #47
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    And yes Makino should be on here before brideport/hardinge who has just become a cheap Tawian offering for Okuma dealers.
    Makino would get my vote as well for what they do in terms of engineering, R&D and development aimed at making customers more productive. They have dominated in every sector that they have chosen to, just recently winning an award for develoing a spindle that removes 4 times the material in Aerospace alloys compared with other methods. They are left out because if your a turning guy, they don't have anything for you.



  12. #48
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    Thumbs up Makino

    Makino machine have very good position in the market also accuracy very good but only spare part it problem in europe.

    ~Stiglo~


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