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  1. #21
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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post




    I think I would be looking for a proper reversing contactor for the application. Trying to cluge together mismatched hardware might not be the best idea.



    I'm a bit confused, low voltage normally has 3 pairs (1-7, 2-8, 3-9) coming out, and 4-5-6 connected together in the motor box. Does yours have the other 3 wires connected together in the box? If so, then I would say it's wired for low voltage (230V)
    Yes that's what I thought too. This one has 9 wires coming out of the motor but three are marked 1, three are marked 2, and three are marked 3. I've never seen one numbered this way. Like a dang fool I let another guy that was supposed to know what he was doing and he pulled the wiring apart and once he saw what he saw he said I don't know what you have here, I ain't never seen anything like this and left everything loose. I know it was working when they took it out of the plant and most everything there is wired for the higher voltage so I would assume this is too.

    OH, and you are probably right about the mismatched contactors I was just wondering if I could get it going that way just until I could come across the right setup.

    Last edited by lin842; 06-30-2018 at 12:32 PM. Reason: added line


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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    Typical reverser contactors have a mechanical interlock as well as a electrical one, IOW physically coupled together .
    Al.
    Thanks Al....I have the mechanical lock and the contactors are 4 pole that I guess I could use as the electrical one.



  3. #23
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by lin842 View Post
    Yes that's what I thought too. This one has 9 wires coming out of the motor but three are marked 1, three are marked 2, and three are marked 3. I've never seen one numbered this way. Like a dang fool I let another guy that was supposed to know what he was doing and he pulled the wiring apart and once he saw what he saw he said I don't know what you have here, I ain't never seen anything like this and left everything loose. I know it was working when they took it out of the plant and most everything there is wired for the higher voltage so I would assume this is too.
    Maybe a trip to the motor shop? I don't know how to identify windings, maybe someone else here does.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    Maybe a trip to the motor shop? I don't know how to identify windings, maybe someone else here does.
    there are a couple u-tube videos out there that explains how to do it, [ ] is one of them. I had to use this to id a couple of the wires that were not marked on that drill motor. I guess I'll have to do it with this motor too. I was just wondering if this grinder motor was something out of the ordinary and needed special attention.



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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    I'm finally getting somewhere. I figured out what the deal was with the wiring on that grinder. I had to take it off the pedestal and flip it over to remove yet another cover on the bottom. Then I could see what was going on. I had forgot all about the on off on switch that was on the other side of the grinder from where the wire connection come out of the case. The three pairs of wires that I could see were all coming out of that switch and the rest were all tucked inside of the motor case. As soon as I flipped it over and looked inside I saw what was going on. It was wired for high voltage and all I had to do was rewire it for low voltage then rewire the cord up. I also took that transformer out of the picture and ran a new cord from the light right to the new 120v plug that I added to plugin box.

    I started the RPC and went in and flipped the switch on the grinder and it sprang to life. I shut it off and let it slow down then flipped it in the other direction and away it went like it should and the light even works. I'm pretty sure now that the RPC is okay and ready to be fine tuned. While the grinder was running I took some readings at the output connector on the RPC and here is where I'm at.

    L1 to L2 = 240.2 v.....
    L1 to L3 = 226.9 v....
    L2 to L3 = 244.2 v.

    I also took current readings at the same line terminals and

    L1, I have 8 amps,
    L2 = 8 amps,
    L3 = 12 amps.

    What are you guy's recommendations as to where I should go next? I also took a few more pictures of the almost completed project.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.-final-resting-place-jpg   fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.-baldor-tool-grinder-wired-jpg   fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.-rpc-mounted-floor-jpg   fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.-distribution-box-closer-view-jpg  

    fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.-start-stop-box-jpg   fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.-plugin-box-jpg   fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.-main-disconnect-distrobution-box-jpg   fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.-distribution-block-jpg  



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    First I think you should send that grinder to me for further testing, could take a few years just to make sure it's OK.

    I would add more capacitors to the L1-L3 and see what happens.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    First I think you should send that grinder to me for further testing, could take a few years just to make sure it's OK.

    I would add more capacitors to the L1-L3 and see what happens.
    I'll keep that under advisement, if it needs any more testing I'll contact you That is the only one of those that I have been able to get a hold on to. I was lucky to get this one because somebody else had their eye on it but he closed his eye at the wrong time and I snatched it up. All that was wrong with it was one of the wheels is worn out and somebody snatched the water pots off the pegs but other than that she be good, no further testing required.

    Where do I add those capacitors? Are they stand alone from the rest of the capacitors and just put between the two legs?



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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by lin842 View Post
    Where do I add those capacitors? Are they stand alone from the rest of the capacitors and just put between the two legs?
    That grinder was a lucky find

    Yes, add capacitance in parallel with whatever you have in there now. I have no idea how much would be required.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    That grinder was a lucky find

    Yes, add capacitance in parallel with whatever you have in there now. I have no idea how much would be required.
    If I ever come in contact with another one I'll message you you never know what they will throw out next. You mean just add another one to the capacitor bank that I have in there now and not just between those two lines...L1/L3. Man!!! I don't want to blow this thing up now that I am this close. And what's the deal with this power factor thing?



  10. #30
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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    The PF correction seems to reduce the input current to the system. It does some electrical magic that I don't exactly understand, something about changing the current-voltage phase relationship. Maybe this will make some sense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor

    I don't know if this is helpful but here is the as-built drawing for my RPC. I'm using a VFD to spin up the pony motor, then it switches out when the idler motor is up to speed.


    fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.-phase-converte3rb-jpg

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.-phase-converte3rb-jpg  
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    The PF correction seems to reduce the input current to the system. It does some electrical magic that I don't exactly understand, something about changing the current-voltage phase relationship. Maybe this will make some sense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor

    I don't know if this is helpful but here is the as-built drawing for my RPC. I'm using a VFD to spin up the pony motor, then it switches out when the idler motor is up to speed.


    fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.-phase-converte3rb-jpg
    MAN!!! I just spent an hour writing a episode of my latest problem and when I pushed to send button and nothing happened. I hate it when that happens. Anyway I'll try again. I had ordered a overload relay for the old controller I found on e-bay and it came in and I decided yesterday to put it on to see if I could at least get the drill working before going any further with the fine tuning.

    After a few minor problems I got the switch mounted and wired but when I tried to start the drill it basically does the same thing only worst now I can't even get it to run by pushing the coil in manually all I get is a hummmm. I've moved around a bunch of wires since the last time I tried to start this thing so I guess I have a wire out of place somewhere. Before when I ran it I just had the wires right out of the RPC pig tailed to the plug on the drill. Since then I have added a distribution box and the new plug-in box for the drill and grinder at the machines. I also had been playing with the capacitor wiring trying to tune it in a little better. Everything still works, the RPC starts and runs like it should the grinder also works fine no matter what I do.

    I don't usually give up on problems like this but this thing is giving me a big test.



  12. #32
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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Sounds like you're almost there. Maybe just a minor wiring error or a loose wire somewhere. Looking forward to your success.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    I had to take a detour for a couple weeks. it had been cool outside so I decided to take a break from this headache and work on a few things outside.

    I'm still having troubles getting this machine to operate. Still the same thing, contactors jumping in and out when I go from stop to forward or rev. I replaced that other O/L switch which was in pretty bad shape. Didn't do any good so I thought I would replace the two coils and see what would happen. I ordered two off e-bay but they were the wrong ones. The problem is I can't even find out what is the right ones because there is so little information out on this old control.

    While working on the coils I noticed one maybe problem. I already knew that the control circuit should not be hooked up to the wild leg of the converter but haven't been able to get my head wrapped around what to do. It turns out that is the way the machine is wired and I'm not sure just what to rewire to make this right. I've tried taking the control wire off the L3 terminal at the reversing contactor and connecting it to L1 or L2, but that makes a bad situation even worst.....Lots more smoke and fire at the contactors. I've tried switching legs at the RPC but that doesn't seem to work either, so I'm wondering how to fix this latest problem. Right now there is 207v from the control line/ L3, to ground and I don't think those coils like that. The two other legs to ground are right at 113v and 114v respectively.

    The way this reversing contactor is wired they are using L1 and L2 to control the forward and reverse and the control wire is connected to L3 also the T3 terminal on the forward contactor supplies the power to the L3 leg of the motor.

    I still want to replace this whole motor starter but I want to get the wiring straightened out before I start a new wiring problem.



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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    One more thing I might add is I can get the drill motor to run and stay running for awhile at least by pulling in the forward or reverse lever and manually helping the coils by pushing them in by hand. Once they are held in tightly for a sec or two they will stay locked in and the motor will run for a minute or two but then soon after that O/L switch will pop out and kill the power to the circuit.

    The motor doesn't seem to change sound or even feel warm to the touch in fact the motor is cold when it shuts out.



  15. #35
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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    If your contactor coils are 115V then it would be best to use a control transformer to supply that voltage. The control transformer primary would be connected L1 and L2, assuming the manufactured leg is L3. L3 should be wired straight through. The reversing should be done by switching L1 - L2


    Are the heaters in the O/L relay correct for operation at 230V?

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    If your contactor coils are 115V then it would be best to use a control transformer to supply that voltage. The control transformer primary would be connected L1 and L2, assuming the manufactured leg is L3. L3 should be wired straight through. The reversing should be done by switching L1 - L2


    Are the heaters in the O/L relay correct for operation at 230V?
    Regarding that last line......You know, I didn't even think about that. The two new relays didn't come with heater elements and I just used the ones that were in the old ones. That could very well be why they are tripping so soon. Thanks for the thought but would that keep the contactors from holding in when trying to start the motor?

    I had thought about that but my mind ran off and hid just thinking about another wiring project. I do have that transformer that I took off of that grinder. All it was doing there was for making the light work. Please look at this and see if you can tell if it would work for this.

    https://www.ebay.com/p/Jefferson-Ele...041/1426899520

    If that would work I guess I could figure it out sooner or later.



  17. #37
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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by lin842 View Post
    Regarding that last line......You know, I didn't even think about that. The two new relays didn't come with heater elements and I just used the ones that were in the old ones. That could very well be why they are tripping so soon. Thanks for the thought but would that keep the contactors from holding in when trying to start the motor?
    No, that would only affect the longer term running. When they trip, it should kill power to the coils, but not on startup.

    I had thought about that but my mind ran off and hid just thinking about another wiring project. I do have that transformer that I took off of that grinder. All it was doing there was for making the light work. Please look at this and see if you can tell if it would work for this.

    https://www.ebay.com/p/Jefferson-Ele...041/1426899520

    If that would work I guess I could figure it out sooner or later.
    Looks like that transformer would work fine. There should be a wiring diagram inside the wire cover, or worst case should be available on the internet.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    No, that would only affect the longer term running. When they trip, it should kill power to the coils, but not on startup.



    Looks like that transformer would work fine. There should be a wiring diagram inside the wire cover, or worst case should be available on the internet.
    Last night I had a few minutes to play with the control and I mounted that transformer and made a conduit run with 4 wires into the main control. I found a wiring diagram on line that I'm pretty sure is for that transformer and I rewired the transformer for 240/120v. It looked like I needed two primary and two secondary wires that come out of the transformer. I think I have the two primary wires wired right but am wondering what to do with the two secondary wires. The machine doesn't have an on/off switch it only has one lever where the center position is stop, pull it to you is forward, push it away from you is reverse. There are three wires coming out of this switch lever going into the starter. One blue for reverse, one green for forward, and one looks to be black that goes to the L3 terminal on the reverse contactor. Do I just run one of the secondary wires to ground and the other one to the wire that is now connected to the L3 terminal?

    I'm looking for the right heaters now and I think I found a couple that will work and as soon as I get them I'll get back on this and hopefully get this thing going. I got a bunch of 2" holes to drill and it sure would be easier to do them on this machine than on my small horse and a half Bridgeport.



  19. #39
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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    The secondary should not be connected to any of the L wires. It should only be connected to the control portion of the wiring. The coil terminals should be labeled A1 and A2. I don't have time right now to draw up the starter wiring, but I can maybe this evening. Maybe you can find a diagram online for a reversing contactor with low voltage control.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    The secondary should not be connected to any of the L wires. It should only be connected to the control portion of the wiring. The coil terminals should be labeled A1 and A2. I don't have time right now to draw up the starter wiring, but I can maybe this evening. Maybe you can find a diagram online for a reversing contactor with low voltage control.
    That's sort of what I was thinking, I was going to remove that black wire that is connected to L3, it is the lead that now supplies the voltage to the stop/forward/reverse switch. I was thinking of taking that wire off the L3 terminal and hooking it to one of the secondary wires and the other to gr. there are no markings on the coils at all. It looks to me like it would be the same as it is now accept the coils will be fed from the transformer rather than the now connected lead to the L3 terminal. What I wasn't sure of is if it would be ok to send that other secondary wire to gr.



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fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.

fine tuning my self built 10hp phase converter.