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  1. #21
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    Specs? We ain't got no specs! LOL.

    Actually since there was more interest in the hardware store design, I figured I'd focus my energies there first.

    I see the mid level machine requiring already owning a mill, perhaps even the hardware store design, in order to cut parts for it.

    But I didn't have a feel for how much money we should allow for a mid level design. Linear motion components are expensive.

    Should we be coming up with a K2 aluminum machine?

    Mike...

    P.S. Dave, Please expand on your comment. Too big? What bits?
    Quote Originally Posted by achiestdragon
    , i moved over to this thread from the hardware store cnc during initial disusions there that pointed to this machine being too big for that ,
    and pointed to some bits not beeing avalable from the local hardware store
    (there using the same bits there now anyway )




  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeschn
    Specs? We ain't got no specs! LOL.

    Actually since there was more interest in the hardware store design, I figured I'd focus my energies there first.

    I see the mid level machine requiring already owning a mill, perhaps even the hardware store design, in order to cut parts for it.

    But I didn't have a feel for how much money we should allow for a mid level design. Linear motion components are expensive.

    Should we be coming up with a K2 aluminum machine?

    Mike...

    P.S. Dave, Please expand on your comment. Too big? What bits?

    well early on they where started working on a draw slide design in that thread and tried calling anything bigger a mid range design , so ended up here then ,, but they seem to be doing a design with tube and bearings so
    much the same as this and the draw slide one is now in another thread
    btw i have sort of moved back to that hardware store design thread also
    as theres nothing much going on here



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    Hey you guys, I was posting on the hardware store design thread and my ideas started to head in the midrange direction... So seeing that I've gone the hardware design route once already, I guess it's time to step it up a notch and hang out w/ you guys. Anyways here is my bearing design. I orginally designed it to use 2.5" angle iron for the truck, and 1.5" angle for the rail. But I ended up having to redesign using 2" angle for the truck and 1.5" for the rail in the pictures of the prototype... reason being was that was all that my local hardware store offered. (like I said... I was rotating around a hardware store design originally) Anyways, here's a bunch of ideas, I'm working on building a machine based on this rail concept, I am sort of heading in a "shopbot" style direction... Enjoy! -Carl

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Mid range design #1-newrail1-jpg   Mid range design #1-newrail4-jpg   Mid range design #1-newrail6-jpg   Mid range design #1-newrail_machine-jpg  

    Mid range design #1-rail-truck-jpg   Mid range design #1-truck-jpg  


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    Default Looking For Someone To Take This Thread

    Hey Everyone,

    I would like to thank those that have helped shape the hardware thread. Now we need some people to do the same with the mid range thread.

    Some have asked what the parameters are for the mid range machine. I will tell you what I think they are.

    1. Very sturdy and precice. Able to two pass cut aluminum 1/4"

    2. Larger than 3'x4' working area.

    3. Ability to be rebuilt after years of use

    I believe this is the thread for the bought linear items, unless you can come up with a very good homebuilt design. There are no limitations as to the source for the parts as long as they are generally available. No one-off "a friend of a friend who works for Kodak got me this", We are shooting for being able to offer these as plans to the CNC community. So keep all parts easy to get.

    I posted on the hardware thread earlier today and asked Carl (Izzlestar),I hope thats right!, to try to start a design around his angle iron idea. I really hope he comes and starts the ball rolling.

    Alot of people have been bragging about how the hardware thread is going. The reason is that there are a few of us who are actively working the thread keeping the fresh ideas going in the right direction. We need some volunteers to come and do the same with this one. But you must be open minded. If you have a set plan of attack then start a build log in the general area. If not then come help. You never know you could be designing your dream machine.

    I will help all I can.
    Jimmy Southern



  5. #25
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    Ok has anyone settled on construction materials for a mid range design? I my mind, a mid range machine is a step up from wood components, to say aluminum but stays away from the linear slides, ballscrew and servo motor/drive requirements of a high end machine which contribute the the higher cost. Maybe it is a design that could be upgraded to those components or used to build the metal widgets needed for a high end design.

    I still think the ball bearing guides and threaded rod with steppers make perfect sense, with an increase in rigidity. One might also expect to have more available equipment to make the construction a bit more professional. Something like a mini lathe and mini mill or a welder.



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    Hey Everyone,

    Dieguy, I agree with you on the linear motion stuff. Ebay is pretty much dried up as far as the great deals on these. Thats why I like carls idea so much. It is about as precise as it gets on the mid range budget. I also agree on the servos they are still pretty high end at the moment so steppers would be the way to go.

    Carl, just a bit of advice, I do a great deal of welding in my business, go with the biggest angle iron you can. 4" angle is far better quality material because it is not easy to bend in transit from the mill to your door. Alot of people handle this material before you get it. Also the more distance you put between your bearings the more stable each truck becomes.

    I believe steel is the most redily available material to build this from, aluminum running a close second. Maybe build the structurals from steel, then do the sheet goods out of aluminum to keep the weight down.

    Just throwing out some ideas. Lets get this one rolling like the hardware one.

    Jimmy



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    Guys -

    I would like to become involved with one of these designs - maybe this one or the high end machine design. I can help.

    I previously designed composite processing machinery and equipment for processing structural composite bodies for Ford and helicopter transmission cases for Sikorski and Bell helicopter among many other things. I currently design coil processing and coating machinery for Mitsubishi. I think I could be helpful.

    The issue I have is reliability. I will help when my time allows but I can't guarantee my availability - hence - I may not appear to be reliable from time to time.

    Do you have a use for potentially unreliable me?

    The first thing I would suggest is that we identify some solid boundries for each design - or has this been done already?

    Scott

    Consistency is a good thing....unless you're consistently an idiot.


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    ok


    well i have not posted here for some time , i seem to have been following the hardware store design , and have taken a different route with my design
    see http://www.whipy.demon.co.uk
    i have done some changes that i have not posted a picture of yet , mainly changing the x axis to use draw slides , and having a fixed gantry
    this cured the x axis rotation that i was having

    i have found that the unistrut can provide a stable frame , its easy to get hold of and because it just bolts together is easy to re design and change things with
    guess that other materials like angle and box section could be used in place of it
    but my machine is a "small" one ,

    maybe using unistrut for the frame is a good idea , used right it will prove stable enough for a larger machine

    i tend to agree that we should be looking at a 3' * 4' machine and allowing it to be scaled up to a 6' * 8' (so would need to allow for this in the calculations)

    i understand that the design i am building would not scale up to that in its current form but it has 2 advantages from the point of view of a home constructor
    first is assembly ( cut and bolt together ) ok spend some time aligning it
    it should also be posible to weld some of the parts together (if you have welding facilaties)

    the other thing is that unistut also has verious "standard fixings" to allow it to be joined in a number of ways

    in a simalar way to the extruded aluminium frameing systems commanly used

    at £12 for a 3 meter lenth (sorry for metric units ) 9'10" its not overly expencive
    data from http://www.unistrut.com/

    do we go for a fixed gantry moving bed (so we dont get x twist ) or a moving gantry design ?
    Dave



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    Quote Originally Posted by mxtras
    Guys -

    I would like to become involved with one of these designs - maybe this one or the high end machine design. I can help.

    I previously designed composite processing machinery and equipment for processing structural composite bodies for Ford and helicopter transmission cases for Sikorski and Bell helicopter among many other things. I currently design coil processing and coating machinery for Mitsubishi. I think I could be helpful.

    The issue I have is reliability. I will help when my time allows but I can't guarantee my availability - hence - I may not appear to be reliable from time to time.

    Do you have a use for potentially unreliable me?

    The first thing I would suggest is that we identify some solid boundries for each design - or has this been done already?

    Scott

    yes any help here is welcome , and no i dont think any boundries have been set for this machine yet , other than it should cut aluminium , mdf and ply
    although i do think that if its going to be used for aluminium that and upto 8'*6' that we sould not expect to be cutting a 1"wide 1" deep grove in one pass , 1/4" by 1/16" maybe

    dave



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    sorry for 3 posts in a row

    Carl
    i like the idea for the slides

    im just wondering if they would be upto a machine cutting aluminium ,its the single bearing on the outer edge of the truck , guess if there was 2 i may feel different but i guess that would make it harder to align and require more accurate drilling

    anyway glad theres some activaty here again
    new machine spec well yes , going to say i dont think i will be building it ,dont have the room for another , but will watch with interest and help where i can



  11. #31
    Registered anoel's Avatar
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    My thoughts of a Midrange design...

    It does not need to exactly be large.
    It does not need to be expensive.
    It does not only require basic tools to build.
    It does not require everything to be available locally.

    It does need to be exceptionally rigid.
    It does need to be made almost entirely of metal (Steel, Aluminum, brass)
    It does need to be quick... Rack and Pinion, belt or ballscrew. (I vote for Rack and Pinion for reasons I'll get into in a moment)
    It does require a full size router for a spindle at minimum in order to take advantage of the fast motion.
    It is able to be used with servo or stepper motors.

    I'd suggest a design with good use of an 80/20 based framework, perhaps we can take advantage of our 80/20 advertiser here and get the framework supplied in a kit of scratch and dent surplus since they "do" have surplus and most home users cannot afford first quality 80/20.

    I'd like to see the ways utilize steel angle and V-groove bearings in a shopbot fashion. Perhaps with a solid design we can get a ready supply of V-groove bearings from VXB at areasonable cost. Unless of course an affordable alternative for THK or Igus W rails shows up.

    I'd like the cutting area to remain around 24"x36".

    I'd like to keep the drive system for the X axis away from the underside of the table so that vaccum and other table clamping systems can be adapted easily.

    Ideally the mechanicals should cost the builder $800 or less. (minus controller, drive moters and spindle.)

    I think that Shopbot's mechanicals (not their control system) and some of the lower end K2CNC machines are good examples of Midrange machines.

    Nathan


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    Hey Guys,

    I was just reading over the posts and noticed we have two completely seperate views on the mission. We need to clear up a few points here.

    1st we are doing plan design. If what we design cannot reasonably be built by the advanced novice with available materials, then we can't expect much success from the plans. This machine is not meant to be a starter machine. It is the next step up for most builders.

    2nd we do not need to spend alot of money to get a very good machine but I think we would be wasting our time to do a "bolt it together from junk design" also. Lets break new ground! Come up with some new ideas! That is why I mentioned to Carl coming here to kick start the mid range design. His idea may not be absolutely new but it is a solid way to build a very accurate and strong linear motion set up. We can tweak it for strength.

    3rd I would like to stay away from needing a lathe or mill to build it. Most don't have these and this would severly limit our list of contributors and future builders.

    Now a few personal views. The size of the machine should be bigger than the hardware design. Currently it is shooting for 2'x3' work area. Most 2nd time builders upgrade to a bigger more robust machine, so 3'x4' or even 4'x4' would not be unreasonable. Depending on design the foot print for the 3'x4' machine should not exceed 4'x6'. This would take up about as much room as a garden tractor mower, in the garage. This is definately not for apartment dwellers but they could easily scale it down. It is difficult to make somthing bigger but it is easy to make it smaller!

    This is just my opinion though.
    Jimmy Southern



  13. #33
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    ok
    clear up 2 points , i use unistrut because its reasonalby cheep and easy to work with , its strong about the same as 1 1/2" box section
    its not junk , its modular frameing used for pipe and cable rails in the building trade its also galvanized so the only real rust problem is the ends where its cut
    and for most is as easy to get hold of as angle iron and as strong in most cases theres also a range of fixings that make it easy to assemble
    (i admit on my prototype i have not taken advantage of using those)

    but given that it is steel theres nothing stopping you from welding it together
    unless you don't have a welder then your stuck with bolting whatever you do together anyway

    thanks for the thoughts on my design anyway , its still a prototype
    and having it bolt together at the moment makes it easy to change
    once i got the thing compleated i will tidy it up and weld up some of the parts so there is no slip
    there are things i want to change on it , and no there is no plans as yet
    mostly its cutting and drilling sizes , but i want to finish it and see how well it works , i need a bigger cutting aria than it will have in the long term 2'*3' but once i get it running i can start on the improvements to it

    so i guess 80/60 extruded aluminium is also out ( you bolt it together)

    sorry but i got thrown into this thread some time ago , i did my best but am a novice at cnc design still working on my first machine
    i know that the spesification is open and 3'*4' seems a good size to go with

    anyway you guys come up with a new design , i'm going to continue with mine , but not here

    btw there are a couple of things i would like to see on the new design

    1/. the tool mounting center to be between the rails (not offset) think there will be better stabilaty that way
    on the z and y axis as well as the x

    2/. the runners should be stainless steel ( given time steel will rust and they will become uneven and aluminium will wear too much if heavy use )
    but feel that it should be worth the extra expense in the long term

    dave



  14. #34
    Gold Member chuckknigh's Avatar
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    One more suggestion. It should not only be all the things you mentioned, ANOEL, but it should also be easily built using the low end machine in the other thread.

    Don't *require* the parts to be CNC machined...but if this is a "next step" from the low end machine, then let the upgrade path reflect that. GCode could easily be made available for some of the harder to fabricate parts.

    Seems like the small X-Y vise is a popular approach, at the moment, which means an envelope of 4x6" or thereabouts.

    -- Chuck Knight



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    Hey Guys,

    Dave, I was hoping that no one would take that line to heart, even though I was serious. Your machine was not what I was refering to. So many of the builds on the zone are cobbled together from old scanners, printers, this piece here, this peice there, etc. I want to avoid the scrouging approach. We are designing plans not a guide to where to scrounge good parts. So I hope no one is offended I am just trying to point the general direction as was laid out by CNCadmin, when he started this. This machine must be an upgrade from the hardware machine. In my opinion we have our work cut out for us, because the hardware machine is turning out to be a very robust design on it's own. I hope this clears this up.

    Also I don't think we should design this neccesarily as a 2nd machine, requiring having a 1st machine to cut parts. I just believe the beginner will have a hard time with a mid range machine without more advanced cnc knowledge. Not a requirment but a plus if you have it.

    This my opinion though
    Jimmy



  16. #36
    Gold Member chuckknigh's Avatar
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    Precisely -- but we can purposely design the precision parts needed, so that they fit within the envelope of the "standard" entry level machine.

    Don't require it...but if they got it, let them use it! Gcode is easy to include in a plan set.

    -- Chuck Knight



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    My initial thoughts when I came up with this mid range machine thread, was to have a machine that was similar to the K2 CNC machine. In particular I liked that fact that it was all metal. I figured once I built that it would be the machine I would keep. I also figured I would use the homebuilt machine to cut the parts for the K2 clone. The 3925 machine is $3250, so that would be the price to beat!

    However, having said that, I realize that any design that is all metal, whether steel or aluminum, is going to be worth keeping.

    Izzle is doing a wonderful job with the angle iron design so far. I'm looking forward to seeing more.

    Mike...



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    i realy like the k2 machine
    has it has been mentioned that the hardware store design cnc should machine aluminium i think that this should be included in the choice of available machining options

    guess the hard part would be the machining on the non alloy parts used for the runners
    although i think that if the machining on non alloy parts is drilling (and maybe tapping ) then it could be posible to supply gcode that could mark out thease parts

    may be worth looking at a place like http://www.metalsontheweb.co.uk/ for the metal , ok so thats a uk site but i suspect there will be simalar sites in the us and elseware

    problem in cutting aluminium on a MDF design is coolant
    well not so much of a problem but it would creep into the mdf making it soggy

    unfortuanatly i can see there beeing 2 designs here , one machined from aluminium like the k2 and another from angle iron

    personaly i would be doing more aluminium work on it than MDF etc so it makes sence to have metal framed design than a MDF one as i dont want to find i got a pile of mushy mdf once the coolant has been soaked up by it

    Dave



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    Any more progress on your design Carl?

    Mike...



  20. #40
    Registered anoel's Avatar
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    I still contend that a Midrange design should have the following requirements...

    Rigidity
    Durability
    Speed
    Work envelope.


    In that order of priority.

    MDF ain't going to cut it for rigidity... so it's got to be a metal frame.
    Unsupported rails is not going to work for rigidity, gotta be supported rails with real bearings of some type. Delrin or UHMW bearings won't work unless it's an IGUS solution, where the composite is encased in a metal housing to retard deformation and where the "Stick - Slip" factor is minimal.

    Durability... Again MDF ain't going to cut it again, gotta be metal to handle messy material and coolant.

    Speed, I'd think that 80 - 150 ipm is a good target for rapids.

    Work envelope is subjective... I think a 2'x3'x5" is a great all around size for most applications and is bigger than the average knee mill. And will keep the cost to a minimum for the metal framing. I have a one car garage as my shop and much bigger and it gets very big very quick. Perhaps a modified version or two can be done to accomodate different envelope needs.

    Nathan


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