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  1. #1001
    Member RonaldoNZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSR_CIVIC View Post
    I think he plans to just use the magnets to trip the sensors

    Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk 4

    Yep, exactly. These are just catches that grasp a plate, no electronics. The small plastic enclosure was all I wanted to house my electronics. The magnets are a cherry on the top.



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    Registered edoctoor's Avatar
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    If your plan works... please post a picture of your end results; I am very curious if they would make the job harder or easier.

    My Problem is that I don't know how to change the files into G-Code just yet, and I am wait and watching this thread as this is an awesome thread I have read all of it and I have learned a lot.. but I am not sure how to put it all together. As my bob only has for terminals for switches and I don't know how I can get a CLOSED circuit for my EStop, and Three circuits for X,Y, and Z... Plus a Touch off Block for Z
    I am assuming that I have to wired Z as an Open circuit or something.. anyway, I am confusted and hoping someday this will make sense as now it seems like common knowledge to everyone but me.

    I also have a pile of 10-30 VOLT sensors with red lights that switch depending on if a reflector is near, but my BOB is FIVE VOLTS...
    Did I get the wrong BOB Break-Out-Board or am I missing something obvious... it is all a mistery to me and I just wait till I get some help.
    In the mean time I am using G-Wizard to practice G-Code enough to make G-Code for the switch mounts.

    One last thing, everyone just has 3/4 or 5/8 plastic that they just had lying around... well it isn't lying around here... where would one get a chunk for the cheapest price?



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    Does anybody know how to set the retract after the switch has been activated. About half the time mine just stop and the switch remains activated. When it does this it stops and will not home the next axis.



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    Member ger21's Avatar
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    Are you seeing an error message?
    And are the axis displaying as being homed?
    There is no retract distance. Mach3 retracts until the switch opens, then it stops.
    You might be seeing some "bouncing", where the switch is toggling back and forth a bit when retracting?

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

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  5. #1005
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    Default home switches not working

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Are you seeing an error message?
    And are the axis displaying as being homed?
    There is no retract distance. Mach3 retracts until the switch opens, then it stops.
    You might be seeing some "bouncing", where the switch is toggling back and forth a bit when retracting?
    Thanks Gerry

    I have shielded cable with the shield grounded in the control box.
    I have one of those choke coils at the switch.
    I have a Y5U 104M capacitor from the 5v to ground. Without this it stops a lot on the way to home.

    I made the following measurements with auto zero off and jog set to 1.
    LED on = switch closed.
    DRO readings. 1.0222 led turns on. 1.0431 led turns off. This is very repeatable.

    I am homing at 20 speed.
    jog to led on then zero DRO. Somewhere around 1.0209 is switch off.
    DRO readings while homing from 2 inches. switch never opens after close led stays on.
    -1.209 -1.0052 -1.0130 -1.0156 +1.0104 -1.0235 -1.0026

    There are no error messages. Pressing "home" again gives the "fix the limit switch" error.

    If i change the homing speed to 1 then DRO value is more repeatable but the switch remains on. Any thing over 40 goes thru the switch and hits the rail.

    There is no bouncing usually it just stops dead.

    The axis is marked as homed, the "X" has the green halo around it.

    I have disconnected all but the X axis from the control panel and their switches.

    Thanks
    Jack



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    I finally got it to work perfectly I will post a update after I get back from dinner



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    Member ger21's Avatar
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    Is the switch also set up as a Limit switch, or a Home only?

    Does each axis' switch have it's own pin, or are they all sharing one pin?

    My guess is that the switch is opening enough for Mach3 to see it, but staying closed. Probably noise related, as you have so many things already trying to minimize the noise.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Is the switch also set up as a Limit switch, or a Home only?

    Does each axis' switch have it's own pin, or are they all sharing one pin?

    My guess is that the switch is opening enough for Mach3 to see it, but staying closed. Probably noise related, as you have so many things already trying to minimize the noise.
    Thanks Gerry

    It was electrical noise.

    Long story version follows

    when I attached the Hall first switch I connected it directly to the bob. Worked great. I was also looking at wiring solutions, in another thread. Attached is a mini din block I found and I thought using it would simplify the wiring of the other switches. Seemed straight forward.
    NEW CONCEPT INTRODUCTION SEEMED SMALL, NOT SO.
    The neat green and yellow terminal blocks are ground, we need ground, but they are grounded to the chassis(box,earth). So better check a little more. Ohm meter says case and 5v ground are common. OK then I rewire everything adding the two other homing switches. Seems to work but is unreliable as documented below,this thread.

    GIVE UP SEEK ADVICE, see below, this thread

    IT SHOULD WORK, even though I have received expert advice

    I DOCUMENT ALL THE THINGS THAT SHOULD MAKE IT WORK, see below,this thread

    REALLY GIVE UP, carefully read the expert advice for nugget of truth, you usually only need one to start with.

    ABSOLUTE STATEMENT FROM EXPERT, after the switch closes the motion will reverse until the switch opens. I am getting no or little reverse movement even though the switch is closed.

    Process of elimination.

    I disconnect the wire leading from the board to the terminal block, and to the switch so it is free. I click on home X, wait a moment, press the wire to the case. The motion stops no retrace. Since this is not according to the expert, but should work, I do this with variations for 30 minutes. Does not seem to work, well does not work.

    I disconnect the 5v gnd wire from the terminal block. I click on the home X, I touch the two wires, the ground and the home wire, together. Seems to be the same but I try again. After a few tries I can get the reverse motion to continue until the wires are separated.

    I rewire the terminal blocks using blocks isolated from the case(high voltage, earth).

    Works every time.

    Noise on the ground when the motor reverses direction, probably.

    Thanks Gerry(the expert)

    PS Yes I do have a college degree and yes it is in electrical engineering, solid state physics, doesn't help much when you are sure you are right



    Electronic home switches made easy!-wiring-jpg

    Last edited by hollisin; 08-23-2013 at 11:21 PM.


  9. #1009
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    One of the biggest problems IMO, is that Hobby machines have more or less settled on 5v I/O out on the machine, instead of going with what is pretty much the industry standard of 24vdc control.
    I follow this and and over the years have never had any problems that I see here almost every week!
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


  10. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by edoctoor View Post
    If your plan works... please post a picture of your end results; I am very curious if they would make the job harder or easier.

    My Problem is that I don't know how to change the files into G-Code just yet, and I am wait and watching this thread as this is an awesome thread I have read all of it and I have learned a lot.. but I am not sure how to put it all together. As my bob only has for terminals for switches and I don't know how I can get a CLOSED circuit for my EStop, and Three circuits for X,Y, and Z... Plus a Touch off Block for Z
    I am assuming that I have to wired Z as an Open circuit or something.. anyway, I am confusted and hoping someday this will make sense as now it seems like common knowledge to everyone but me.

    I also have a pile of 10-30 VOLT sensors with red lights that switch depending on if a reflector is near, but my BOB is FIVE VOLTS...
    Did I get the wrong BOB Break-Out-Board or am I missing something obvious... it is all a mistery to me and I just wait till I get some help.
    In the mean time I am using G-Wizard to practice G-Code enough to make G-Code for the switch mounts.

    One last thing, everyone just has 3/4 or 5/8 plastic that they just had lying around... well it isn't lying around here... where would one get a chunk for the cheapest price?
    If you are looking for plastic, try Laird plastics Laird Plastics that's where I get mine min order is $40 but best prices and many different thickness and types

    http://youtu.be/9dTS1A2F4j8


  11. #1011
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    In Canada there is also Johnston Plastics, I managed to get offcuts also.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    One of the biggest problems IMO, is that Hobby machines have more or less settled on 5v I/O out on the machine, instead of going with what is pretty much the industry standard of 24vdc control.
    I follow this and and over the years have never had any problems that I see here almost every week!
    Al.
    Al
    Do you have some examples or suggestions about how to use 24 V input and output signals.

    It would seem that powering electronic switches with 24 V would be possible. If the inputs are just short to ground and held up by pull-up resistors Isn't the open circuit voltage still 5 V subject to the same noise problems.

    Outputs would seem to be more of a problem since they short when activated. Currently they short five bolts to ground to activate the device such as a switch. If you use 24 V that seems like that would be a problem.

    Thanks jack



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    Over the years I have used many custom built I/O boards, for Inputs, if something like the opto IC 4N25 is used close to the 5v port with 24v on the input side.
    For non-isolated outputs I have use 2n7000 for a small # or just a couple of outputs.
    If more is needed then I use the ULN2803 but these require some board level building with strip board.
    If you don't want to get into that, then I have used Opto22 products, these are boards that are made for mix and match I/O modules that translate from 5v-24v one side to 60VDC - 240AC, either way, in or out.
    If you search on Ebay for Opto22 you can see lots of it, you would need the 5v logic variety for PC port use.
    I have used common ground (mainly) and also Isolated commons with no problem with noise.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


  14. #1014
    Registered edoctoor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    In Canada there is also Johnston Plastics, I managed to get offcuts also.
    Al.
    Thank you, I will call them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    Over the years I have used many custom built I/O boards, for Inputs, if something like the opto IC 4N25 is used close to the 5v port with 24v on the input side.
    For non-isolated outputs I have use 2n7000 for a small # or just a couple of outputs.
    If more is needed then I use the ULN2803 but these require some board level building with strip board.
    If you don't want to get into that, then I have used Opto22 products, these are boards that are made for mix and match I/O modules that translate from 5v-24v one side to 60VDC - 240AC, either way, in or out.
    If you search on Ebay for Opto22 you can see lots of it, you would need the 5v logic variety for PC port use.
    I have used common ground (mainly) and also Isolated commons with no problem with noise.
    Al.
    I searched ULN2803
    http://www.digikey.ca/product-search...2803&x=16&y=15
    I was thinking that I would see Opto 5volt to 60volt... but it turns out that one requires more than a
    soldering gun and a oscilloscope to figure this stuff out.

    Thanks again... I don't quite understand,,, but I do appreciate a point in the right direction, I'll google for 5-60 Opto HACK or DIY later. As I have over $5000.00 worth of these sensors it will be worth it for me to find a solution.

    Many thanks, Edoctoor (backwords is Root Code)

    Last edited by edoctoor; 08-28-2013 at 11:16 AM.


  15. #1015
    Member RonaldoNZ's Avatar
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    Cool My finished switches

    Well, I've completed my set of eight switches, my machine has two drives in X so i wanted a set of home+limits on both sides of the gantry. Each home/limit pair is joined in series. I designed them to run at 12V rather than 5 to address any potential noise issues and also its easy to tap off 12v from the controllers PSU. I used optocouplers to adapt that voltage to the bob.

    I also made them N/C in order to address the inherit safety problem with using an N/O switch, I.E. if a sensor fails or a lead is damaged the opto (which is at the bob end, not the sensor end of the cable run) will go open circuit and trigger a stop. This meant making a little optocoupler bob adapter. The switches themselves have two leds in them, a uv one to show the switch is running/powered at a glance which changes to a red one on trigger. I'm pleased with the results, they do everything I wanted in a tidy self contained way. Here are my circuits and a little story in pictures.

    Electronic home switches made easy!-sensor-pngElectronic home switches made easy!-bob_adapter-jpgElectronic home switches made easy!-1-jpgElectronic home switches made easy!-2-jpgElectronic home switches made easy!-3-jpgElectronic home switches made easy!-4-jpgElectronic home switches made easy!-5-jpgElectronic home switches made easy!-6-jpgElectronic home switches made easy!-7-jpg



  16. #1016
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    Hi Ronaldo

    the switches look great

    your limit switches look like a variation of one of the circuits in post 710
    I think your the first to build limit switches with transistors in the limit swich assembly

    what BOB do use the opto-isolator AND gate adaptor with ?
    just curious because of the volt drop across the two NPN transistors could be a problem with some BOB's or printer ports

    John



  17. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by john_100 View Post
    Hi Ronaldo

    the switches look great

    your limit switches look like a variation of one of the circuits in post 710
    I think your the first to build limit switches with transistors in the limit swich assembly

    what BOB do use the opto-isolator AND gate adaptor with ?
    just curious because of the volt drop across the two NPN transistors could be a problem with some BOB's or printer ports

    John

    Cheers. The bob is a Chinese generic, an HY-JK02-M 5 axis. It expects 5v dropping to ground, I run the bob off the same 5v supply as the bob side of the optos. I tested the prototype obsessively to work reliably with it, going as far as to set up a bunch of bread boarded units just to make sure. That 5v rail is unaffected by the 12v drop.

    Test six times, solder once as they say.



  18. #1018
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    Hi Ronaldo

    after testing a BOB that looked like the one your using
    I ended up tracing the circuit
    the BOB I tested had a few errors the first being the + supply pin 14 not being connected !

    by now I expect the boards to of been redesigned ,
    if not the attached diagrams could be usefull

    John

    Electronic home switches made easy!-5-axis-bob2-jpg

    Electronic home switches made easy!-cnc-5-axis-bob-jpg

    Electronic home switches made easy!-5-axis-bob-errors-jpg

    Last edited by john-100; 09-20-2013 at 07:04 AM.


  19. #1019
    Registered Falcon69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john_100 View Post
    Hi Ronaldo

    the switches look great

    your limit switches look like a variation of one of the circuits in post 710
    I think your the first to build limit switches with transistors in the limit swich assembly

    what BOB do use the opto-isolator AND gate adaptor with ?
    just curious because of the volt drop across the two NPN transistors could be a problem with some BOB's or printer ports

    John
    The switches do look great, nice job!

    John,

    I built some with the onboard transistor as well also. They are hard to see. Surface mount and are between the two LED's and under the Sensor.
    Electronic home switches made easy!-limit-switch-transistor-jpg
    Electronic home switches made easy!-limit-switch-transistor-close-jpg



    I have that same breakout board. It came with a crappy controller and a read out display. Worst $90 spent. I was advised by Ger21 (i think it was him) in my machine build thread to scrap it and go with the PMDX-126. Which I did. I have not hooked it up yet, as my machine is far from being done, but The quality is far superb over that Chinese board. Plus, it is made to fit the Ethernet Smooth Stepper and PMDX also makes a spindle control for it that plugs right into that 126 board, which I got as well.

    I just looked at my chinese board as well, identical to yours RonaldoNZ, and John is right, that pin isn't even connected to a power source. The Via goes straight through the circuit board, but unlike the other two IC Chips, it is not connected to the trace.

    Jason

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Electronic home switches made easy!-limit-switch-transistor-jpg  


  20. #1020
    Member john-100's Avatar
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    Hi Jason

    I missed that change when you last redesigned the sensors !
    I'll have to have a closer look !


    this picture of the breakout board shows the way I added the +5V link to the first 74hc14 IC :-
    Electronic home switches made easy!-5v-link-jpg

    this wire link will correctly power the IC the limit switches are connected to

    without the link the 74hc14 only works (to a degree) because its a low power CMOS device
    and a logic high level(+5V) on any input will be connected to its supply pin 14 via the input protection diodes !


    John

    Last edited by john-100; 09-20-2013 at 07:19 AM.


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