G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value


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Thread: G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value

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    Default G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value

    Hi Guys,


    Can someone please help me understand how the threading terms tie together in a G71 threading cycle?

    I thought from my manual that:

    L was a fixed value of 1x lead in the absence of M23 and designating your own.

    Does the machine specific delta value apply after the thread chamfering occurs (time to decelerate the axis)?

    I understand its also needed as time to accelerate the axis and synchronise with the spindle.


    I have recently cut a 16TPI 3 start thread and the chamfer/lead out length in the Z is very close to the pitch, NOT the lead. Can anyone confirm this is reliable? i.e. its the pitch not the lead.

    So, 2 Questions -
    1. How does the L and delta value work together at the end of a thread
    2. Is the L distance actually the pitch not the lead (in the absence of M23 and prescribing your own L)

    Thanks everyone.

    Stay safe!

    Iain.

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    Default Re: G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value

    How does the L and delta value work together at the end of a thread
    hy gibsoni please, what do you mean by delta ? do you reffer to the distance required for the axis ( S and Z ) to get in sync ( thus Z axis acceleration distance ) ?

    Is the L distance actually the pitch not the lead (in the absence of M23 and prescribing your own L)
    according to manuals, L = pitch

    also, manuals do not clearly specify what happens when you use L and M22 ( absence of M23 means that M22 is active; if you don't specify M22, it will be active by default, since it is modal @ cnc start-up, power-on, etc )

    do you need to generate a specific taper ? pls share your drawing and i will give you code and how to create the taper drawing for machining

    it is possible to test what happens when you use L M22, by messing with machine parameters, etc, but this is only for fun

    so, do you need help with a real thread, or are you intersted into how it works ? or both ? kindly

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value-01-png  
    Last edited by deadlykitten; 04-03-2020 at 06:36 AM.
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    Default Re: G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value

    Hi deadly

    delta is

    G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value-007-jpg

    MN_^J<DAK?;BGL1345TU@C2=HI


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    Default Re: G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value

    How does the L and delta value work together at the end of a thread
    hello again, that delta explained in the manual is specific to z axis motion : if you thread from z5 to z-50, then travel will be 55, but desired feed will be available only for 55-2*delta (*1)

    when "z estimated position" will be -55+L, X axis will start to raise up (*2) using a feed value calculated with the formula from image 01, explained by kurmay and me

    however, is pretty time consuming to set "X axis retract feed" by using a parameter and doing some math in order to compute the angle of the composed movement; just imagine, if you will change the rpm then it will be needed to start all over again, in order to keep the retract vector orientation constant ... also, in the end, it may not work

    so, if you wish to control the final taper, like among a single pitch/lead, or to obtain a vanish thread, i recomand you to use G34 (attached *.pdf); if you share a drawing, i will share how to create the code ( hope g34 is working on your machine )

    Is the L distance actually the pitch not the lead (in the absence of M23 and prescribing your own L)
    i strongly recomand you to use M23 L each time you need to obtain a vanished thread, and, if it does not work, then you will need to mess with a parameter inside your machine ( it may work after a few trials ), or switch to g34 ( this will work as expected, but coding requires much more time ) / kindly



    (*1) if you need to deliver an od thread with low left and/or right clearances, then deliver the diameter before threading as low as possible, and use the threading insert as deep as possible, thus craft it with maximum material removal, just a bit over the no-go gauges ... like this, even if the cnc won't be able to sync it's movement, you should still have room for errors; is all about tolerances ...

    (*2) more precisely, X will begin to raise when" z estimated position" is -55+L+ipw_for_feeding

    "z estimate position" <> " z real position ", and their difference is equal to diff
    ... if diff = 0 then z axis is moving as it "should"
    ... if diff > 0 then z axis is a bit behind, mostly because of the cutting force, or acceleration slower then expected ( a heavy turret behaves <> empty turret )
    ... if diff < 0 then z axis is ahead, mostly because of inertia during acceleration / breaking, and/or backlash swipping sides even if axis direction did not reversed

    also "z estimate position" <> "z comanded position", and their difference is always positive, thus the control always has to be in front of the estimated position; check attached 02

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value-01-jpg   G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value-02-png  
    Attached Files Attached Files
    the human body has enough iron to make a nail ... i can also make the hammer :) i mean a plastic hammer


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    Default Re: G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value

    Thanks for the replies.

    I didn't get any email alerts informing me that someone had replied so I assumed no one had. Sorry for the delay.

    So, When we call the Z value as the finish point of the thread, this INCLUDES the 'L' distance, and, after this there is still the delta value required?

    Thanks for the clarification.

    (As a side note - L on this job certainly seems to be the pitch, not the lead)



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    Default Re: G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value

    So, When we call the Z value as the finish point of the thread, this INCLUDES the 'L' distance ?
    hy gibsoni, yes, finish Z includes the L distance; please consider this simple code :
    G00 Z+ 5 ...
    G71 Z-50 ...


    when z will be -50+L, X axis will start to raise up ( check also attached 01.png )

    travel will be 55, but desired feed will be available only for 55-2*delta ( check also attached 02.png )

    and, after this there is still the delta value required?
    delta is a machine specific, you can't provide it inside your code

    delta is the length of the deceleration/acceleration sector :
    ... deceleration occurs before final Z
    ... acceleration occurs after initial Z

    is it ok ? should i explain more ? kindly


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value-01-png   G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value-02-png  
    Last edited by deadlykitten; 04-07-2020 at 02:34 AM.
    the human body has enough iron to make a nail ... i can also make the hammer :) i mean a plastic hammer


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    Default Re: G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value

    Thanks DeadyKitten,

    I think I disagree or don't understand your comment about delta.
    I have calculated it per the manual for my machine so know what it is for this machine,rpm and lead.

    However, I don't think it makes sense when you say that deceleration occurs before final Z. If this was the case you would have incorrect and changing lead WITHIN the L value as the tool retracts. Hence, I assume the delta value is after the final Z.



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    Default Re: G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value

    hy gibsoni in this case, i believe that is a good moment to run some trials, in order to decide if delta is before, or after, final Z

    what do you say ?

    if you wish, i can suggest you a nice test, but i need to know the constant for your machine, that one that you use to calculate delta / kindly

    ps : if delta is located after final z, then it would be impossible to cut a thread close to a shoulder obviously, i can help you to test this behaviour without crashing ... but more important, if you wish, i can help you to crash your machine just kidding

    ps2 : please excuse me, i don't wanna be impolite, but you should 1st understand how delta works, and only after that you should start to think of L; so, let's run some real trials that will convince you, then we should move to L; also, don't worry, even when everything with delta will be clear, you will see that using L is a tiny mess, so is better to use G34 ... i have been there, i have done that

    Last edited by deadlykitten; 04-09-2020 at 03:35 AM.
    the human body has enough iron to make a nail ... i can also make the hammer :) i mean a plastic hammer


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G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value

G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value

G71 Threading chamfering/lead out - L value and the delta value