Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson


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    Default Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson

    hello, here are this 2 :

    Okuma | Cycle Time Reduction | Spindle/M-Spindle
    Cycle Time Reduction | Indexing Turret | Okuma

    does anyone has an idea about this " There’s a lot to cover and a lot more time to save with my next couple topics too: Fixed Cycles, and LAP Cycles (Lathe Automatic Programming) " ? kindly !

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    Default Re: Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson

    Cooper is a great guy and did a decent job of explaining CTR function. His initial post left out the M203 which is GREAT for saving cycle time. His second post reveals it nicely. He did however leave out the other part of this which is to put your T command on same line as the XZ move. This will allow the turret to clamp the curvic coupling as it rapids towards the part when you have the servo turrets.

    I tend to avoid the M65 & M66 due to the increased danger factor and find that using the M203 is as fast since the turret can typically reach it's limit by the time the coupling is unclamped and can reach the part by the time it is re-clamped.

    The M63 command is CRITICAL to reducing cycle time and should be used during ALL RPM changes that can be combined with a move until the machine is running "smooth as silk" with no waiting or pauses.

    M203 followed by XZT = about 1.5 seconds saving per index. M63 is good for varying amounts but can as much as it takes your spindle to go from full stop to max RPM to full stop. Usually good for a minimum of 10 seconds/program - usually more.

    Inside of the canned cycles, another savings can be achieved by adjusting the clearance values in the peck drilling cycles. I think that this is what he was referring to. Both the standard drilling and the M-drilling cycles have default clearance values. These are set at .05 from the factory, but the cycles can be reduced by decreasing the setting. Typically .02 is what I use so that there is still clearance in case of a chip at the bottom of the hole, but the extra .03 really does nothing more than add cycle time. There are also clearance values for the LAP cycles, but the default .01 is a decent value, so Cooper is probably referring to the advantages of using the canned cycles from a programming standpoint and the flexibility gained by using them. It's great to just change a DOC in a LAP/drilling cycle rather than have to re-do all the moves in long hand G-code.

    Best regards,

    Experience is what you get just after you needed it.


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    Default Re: Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson

    Cooper is a great guy and did a decent job of explaining CTR function
    yeah, me too ... i mean i also think the same about Cooper he has that charismatic G code expression

    He did however leave out the other part of this which is to put your T command on same line as the XZ move. This will allow the turret to clamp the curvic coupling as it rapids towards the part when you have the servo turrets.
    he said something about this in the 2nd blog ... please see attached / however, he was presenting this during the M65, so maybe is confusing, because is like you must 1st understand what M65 does, and also understand that coupling does not care about it ...

    also, Broby revealed the posibility of using this syntax a few time ago ...

    Code:
    N1008 X52 Z52 T020202
    syntax is something, coupling ( machine behaviour on the syntax ) is something else ...

    me, for example, i discovered this by mistake, just yesterday ... i was mesing with M86/87

    if you are in manual mode, and while turret is indexing, you push Z_left button, than turret goes left after indexing+clamping ... i thought to eliminate this clamping_delay inside the program, but when the program runs, machine is clamping during rapid by default

    for example, here :
    Code:
    T ( indexing )
    G0 X.. Z.. ( clamping during movement )
    G97 ..
    G01 ... ( at least 0.5seconds must take between T and G01, so for the clamping to occur before feed )
    
    generally, i go like this : T... M66 G0 X... Z... M63 G97...
    when i saw that this is default, at least on osp300, i remembered that paragraph from Cooper, the one that i posted

    so, sometimes, tricks are presented during other tricks ... a bit from here, a bit from there, and you got the final image

    Inside of the canned cycles, another savings can be achieved by adjusting the clearance values in the peck drilling cycles
    drill with peck : cut,+Zclearance, cut, +Zclearance ... please, from where do you change the clearance ?

    however, generaly, this move (+Zclearance) is done in rapid, so to break the chip spiral ...this tensions the tool ... when i peck, i use feed so breaking with less stress

    i must say that i hit into a lot of stuff that default cycles won't deliver, so i code a lot on G ... now, for example, a drill enters after another; entrance rpm=100, so to have a smooth entrance

    I think that this is what he was referring to
    also, i share same curiosity ... let's contact this guy let's tell him about time reduction on VRSTT i would ask him about low precision on roughing and default or desired precision on finish operations ... all the best

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson-01-png  
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    Default Re: Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson

    about this paragraph ( pls see attached ) : confirming T ... i agree with it, but i don't use it ...

    "i agree with it" because, if clamping did not occur, than an error will raise when G1 should be executed; T repeating acts like a guardian if rapid is finished before clamping ocurs, than clamping will be finished during the 2nd T ...

    "i don't use it" because rapid duration is long enough

    this means that is good to use it, but is not a must

    Quote Originally Posted by broby View Post
    Code:
    N1006 G0 Z800 G97 S1102 M63 (Rapid to tool change position on Z axis only, Setting up spindle speed for next operation)
    N1007 X52 Z800 T020202 M65 M66 (move to next start point on X axis, KEEPING tool firmly on Z axis home position to ensure safety, use M65 to specify free turret indexing when not home and M66 to not confirm tool change has done)
    N1008 X52 Z52 T020202 (IMPORTANT!... Confirm tool index by re-specifying the same tool number)
    ... it may mean that Cooper is Broby ...

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson-01-png  
    Last edited by deadlykitten; 08-05-2016 at 04:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson

    hello , check this one :

    Code:
    go @ safe position
    M110 T040404 M66 G00 X0 Z5 M08
    SB=V1 M13
    there are 2 syncros in same line : [ S>C + index ] & [ rapid + clamping ]

    M807 is not required

    starting the coolant pump when turret is at safe position, allows full presure when M spindle starts

    and, offcourse, this variant :

    Code:
    go @ safe position
    M110 T040404 M66 M08
    SB=V1 M13 G00 X0 Z5 M63
    kindly !

    ps : beer is ok

    Ladyhawke - My Delirium, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bFO1SNRZg


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    Default Re: Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson

    Turret indexing command repeat is not needed. When G01 is executed, turret clamp is checked automatically and will fault if not seen within .5 second. Repeating the T command only slows things down.

    More speed can be gained by combining your SB= command on the same line with the turret index.

    G0 X1000 Z1000 M203
    G0 M110 T040404 X0 Z5 M8 SB=1000
    M13

    I skip the M66 and go to the limit since it can get you into trouble in the case of a tool indexing past the spindle that may stick out longer than the tool being called and the offset being used. It's OK as long as ALL your tools can clear when indexing. Changing your +Z variable limit accomplishes the same thing when you set it so that all of your tools can clear.

    Best regards,

    PS> Cooper is in the US and Broby is in Australia I believe.



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    Default Re: Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson

    Can DEF confirm that 1. I am NOT Cooper and 2. I live in Australia!



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    Default Re: Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson

    Quote Originally Posted by OkumaWiz View Post
    Turret indexing command repeat is not needed. When G01 is executed, turret clamp is checked automatically and will fault if not seen within .5 second. Repeating the T command only slows things down.
    Wow, dangerous move in my opinion.
    You are correct that the machine checks the turret is clamped before executing the G1 command, but unless you are planning on feeding from your index position to the start point of your cycle, then you really need to confirm that the correct tool is in place BEFORE moving to the start point.
    i.e. if you move at rapid to a suitable tool change position (which I have always set at a point where ALL tools will clear the Machine/Job)
    then execute a unrestrained tool change whilst moving to another position
    then move at rapid to the next start point
    If this is done without confirming your next tool is in place, then you may well still be indexing into position by the time the machine gets to the start point.
    The reason I rapid to a safe tool change position is thus: If for some reason a tool change position confirmation switch is faulty and the turret keeps spinning, then you risk only stirring the air inside your machine.
    If you choose a tool change position only 10mm away from your job (might be changing between a Roughing tool and a Finishing tool) and you also have some long tools in the turrent and something fails, you will end up repairing way more than just a faulty switch.
    But hey... YOUR machine, YOUR Risk!



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    Default Re: Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson

    hello mr Wizard ... i saw you like boats/waterskiing, so how are the waves ?

    Quote Originally Posted by OkumaWiz View Post
    More speed can be gained by combining your SB command on the same line with the turret index
    yup, nice idea ; CTR targets combining stuff :
    ... with longer duration : M203, T index, S from 0 to whatever, etc
    ... with shorter duration : SB from 0 to whatever, M110, M109, etc
    ... syncro timing/precision, as M61
    ... M13 is just an impulse to begin SB at a previous read rpm > so there is some time economy, but not as big as the others ... this is why i called it "the cherry on top"

    Quote Originally Posted by OkumaWiz View Post
    ... it can get you into trouble in the case of a tool indexing past the spindle that may stick out longer than the tool being called and the offset being used. It's OK as long as ALL your tools can clear when indexing. Changing your +Z variable limit accomplishes the same thing when you set it so that all of your tools can clear.
    i noticed this behaviour : machine keeps same Z after indexing, and thus, in the particular case that you described, it means trouble ... so, in "this way", is required more caution

    i eliminated this "requirement for futher caution" by controling the indexing position like this :
    ... G0 X375-VETFX Z150-VETFZ > thus :
    ......... after indexing, machine won't compensate Z offset difference, so it won't move
    ......... it means a better control of the index position, that is not relative to tool offset, but to the turret absolute position
    ......... this is why all my index examples are with that code in this thread i avoided this syntax, and replaced with " go @ safe position", so to focus on CTR and not on index tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by OkumaWiz View Post
    I skip the M66 and go to the limit
    after a safe position, trigered with G0 X375-VETFX Z150-VETFZ , which in most cases will send the turret in the X_max_limit, i use M66 ; this sounds crazy, but, you know, as someone said " experience is what you need when you ... or something like that " ... here is why :

    ... if turret indexes at X375, than there is a difference between "G0 X375 Txx0000 ( this cancels T corections ) " and "G0 X375-VETFX (while Txxyyzz is still active)" ; 1st syntax will send the machine always at 375, while the 2nd will mess with mathematics ( positioning error ) as how much is "X375-VETFX", and may deliver X375-0.002, because of cnc reaction time and stuff, so this will miss the index position with 0.002 > M66 will solve it
    ... sometimes, i do not index at X_max_limit; once i finished coding cutting toolpaths, i target and syncronize index position between operations; thus:
    ......... always, the "end position" of an operation is the same as the "start position" of the next one
    ......... "start" and "end" position of same operation are not always identical

    so, M66 covers bought cases :
    ... indexing at random X
    ... indexing at max_X without Z corections between tools

    this is not about this thread, but since the problem poped-out, i just replied

    PS : eliminating turret moving to compensate difference between tools Z offset counts as a CTR technique? if so, than is ok to post it into this thread ... i think it may be considered so

    Last edited by deadlykitten; 08-09-2016 at 12:44 PM.
    Ladyhawke - My Delirium, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bFO1SNRZg


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    Default Re: Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson

    hello, also check this codes

    1) C>S once operation finished ( with / without M203 ) :

    Code:
    M110
    ....
    go @ safe position M203 M109
    2) faster indexing at custom angle; this one :

    Code:
    go @ safe position 
    VSZOC=VSZOC+120 ( for example )
    M110 T040404 M66 G00 X0 Z5 M08 SB=V1
    M13
    instead of this one :

    Code:
    go @ safe position 
    M110 T040404 M66 G00 X0 Z5 M08 SB=V1
    M13 C120
    kindly !

    Ladyhawke - My Delirium, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bFO1SNRZg


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    Default Re: Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson

    Quote Originally Posted by broby View Post
    but unless you are planning on feeding from your index position to the start point of your cycle
    hy what is the probability for this case ? can you share some relevant examples/setups ? why feeding to " cycle start point (CSP)" and not rapid ?

    if is really needed, than why not rapid at 10mm from CSP, and after, feed only those 10mm ?

    if there is no room for 10 mm, are you indexing that close to the material ? and if so, why not increase the distance, and rapid instead ... so there will be same time

    and finally : if there is no room to increase the distance between safe position and CSP, can you share such an example ? it may mean "get a bigger machine"

    Quote Originally Posted by broby View Post
    i.e. if you move at rapid to a suitable tool change position...
    then execute a unrestrained tool change whilst moving to another position ...
    then move at rapid to the next start point ...
    if this means :

    cut finished
    go safe position
    go close to CSP on rapid + M65
    go rapid at CSP

    than you need, to be safe, a T confirmation before the last line ( if indexing may occur on 2nd rapid) ... but please, can you share some relevant examples / setups ?

    and why not index at safe position and use a single rapid move ? what is the difference ? kindly !

    Last edited by deadlykitten; 08-09-2016 at 12:46 PM.
    Ladyhawke - My Delirium, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bFO1SNRZg


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    Default Re: Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson

    Quote Originally Posted by broby View Post
    if you move at rapid to a suitable tool change position
    then execute a unrestrained tool change whilst moving to another position
    then move at rapid to the next start point
    If this is done without confirming your next tool is in place, then you may well still be indexing into position by the time the machine gets to the start point
    if i understood ok, than this code does just that (safe position, rapid M65, rapid):

    Code:
    G00 X375-VETFX Z250-VETFZ
    T101010 M66 ( G97 S=V1*0.7 M42 M03 M08 ) G00 X=VSIOX-20 Z250-VETFZ-10-111.337 ( M63 ) M65
    G00 X0 Z5
    so, after the safe position, there is a rapid for X20 and Z10, that should be short enough so the clamping not to occur

    clamping, in this case, does not occure on 2nd rapid, but the machine stops after 1st rapid, indexes, and continues on the 2nd rapid with the correct tool in place

    so indexing during 2nd rapid is not a normal behaviour

    Quote Originally Posted by broby View Post
    The reason I rapid to a safe tool change position is thus: If for some reason a tool change position confirmation switch is faulty and the turret keeps spinning, then you risk only stirring the air inside your machine.
    is like the rotary mechanism did not stop at a certain angle, but continued ... far as i know, there is a tolerated error, but if that also fails, than turret will become a fan

    ( . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . )

    all this are particular cases with low probability
    ... what if that fan goes directly into the part ? without using any CTR codes ?
    ... what if someone feeds from Z800 to Z5 ?
    ... what if someone uses 2 rapids when turret comes ?

    what i mean is that CTR requires caution, and this is more than enough; particular cases, errors, this is something else if someone with less experience on such techniques will read those particular cases with low probability, than will finish with a messed up head, because will consider those cases as normal behaviour, and will straggle to understand them, and in the end will develop an unnatural way of programming, being satisfied that what he does is the best way to do it ... is inconclusive to give such counterexamples

    Last edited by deadlykitten; 08-09-2016 at 10:46 AM.
    Ladyhawke - My Delirium, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bFO1SNRZg


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Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson

Cycle Time Reduction by Cooper Ferguson