lathe revolver shock & toolholders

[deadlykitten]

hello ! if there are holders on the turret, than, indexing at post 7, for example, with a cw direction, is smooth, while indexing at same post from a ccw direction is done with shock

this behaviour was since the lathe was new, and back than, to decrease this shock, i have decreased indexing speed : so the shock is still there, but not so powerfull

at a full turret index:
.... post by post cw : 3 , 5 , 8, 11 smooth, rest with shock
.... post by post ccw : 3 , 5 , 8, 11 shock, rest are smooth
........ those 3 5 8 11, are not always the same, but depending on how many holders on the turret
........ if there are no holders on the turret, there is still a shock, but not so powerfull

i was thinking of these solutions, but i have no idea how to make them work :
.... decrease speed of clamping mechanism ; like this, wherever is a shock, it will be reduced
.... using for each post the appropriate sense ( cw / ccw ); like this, i could restore indexing speed to max, and eliminate shocks; are there codes for such stuff ?

on the other side, this shock affects something ? does it matter ? kindly !

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[deadlykitten]

It seems a mechanical problem.

my dealer said that this behavior is normal ; is light when turret is empty, and is amplified by toolholder's weight ...

there is turret rotation and after, clamping
after rotation and until clamping ocurs, is this shock : also, holder(post) rotation can be viewed by eye; if i index from the other sense, than this shock disapears

[deadlykitten]

hello, i uploaded a video here :

https://www.myairbridge.com/en/?dl=1...Y1G9NXTAWRNRPN

every time post 7 is rotated down, at active post, there is a shock when clamped

if it is rotated up, than clamping is smooth

when going down, it can be seen the difference between "position after rotation" and "position after clamping"
this difference is not caught on camera, because action is fast, and camera is not so fps ... but the difference in sound can be heard

if someone has an idea how to measure the difference between "position after rotation" and "position after clamping", is more than welcome ... i would post data for indexing cw and ccw, so to be more specific; kindly !

[deadlykitten]

i modified some parameters, but nothing happend ; i think that clamping duration can not be modified by a parameter

otherwise, i would be looking to input a behaviour like this :" pull slow, and after contact, raise pressure to necessary", instead of "pull with full pressure"

i guess this can be done only by intervention on the machine, and so far i did not adventure on this lands

also, turret indexing speed has nothing to do with it ... regardless of it, position before clamping is the same ... i thought that, because of rotation speed, turret may stop a bit offset, but this does not happen; i guess this is because rotation is done very precise, according to " turret angles for each post "

so i will asume that clamping with shock, will just force a bit those 2 parts from attached image : so, whenever there is a shock, those 2 are not aligned after rotation, but after clamping ... i think ( i hope ) these parts don't require service often

[deadlykitten]

i measured difference between "position after rotation" and "position after clamping"

... rotation up, position_1, clamping, position_after_clamping
...... 0.1 < position_after_clamping - position_1 < 0.8

... rotation down, position_2, clamping, position_after_clamping
...... position_after_clamping - position_2 < 0.1

when difference is ~0.1, clamping is smooth; from 0.3 and up, shocks appear

this differences, 0.1 .. 0.8, means an angle deviation 0.022 .. 0.176; so deviations occure at a scale not so precise as the " turret angle values (tav)", which are declared at 0.001; i wonder why Okuma strugles with "tav" at 0.001, when in practice, i supose that 0.01 is more than enough; also, this shock exists even if turret is empty, so ...

in my opinion, rotaty mechanism has precision_1(min1..max1), and clamping has precision_2(min2..max2), max2<<min1

how cutting depends on clamping, precision 2 is active, while precision 1 is passive > so this means, in an exagerate way, that machine should behave the same with precision_1 = 2mm, as long as the " turet index deviation " does not affect the clamping

older lathes had this rotary deviations much greater than 0.8, but they still delivered; however, clamping durations was not so fast

one question : if all devations would be at 0.7, how would the clutch look after a while ? if ok, than no worries

i think is good to know this deviations, so to have values to compare, if needed ...

... if clamping duration could be easy lengthen, at least twice the actual duration
...... or
... if turret sense could be selected from code, before an index, shocks will disappear
...... or
... craft holders from rigid materials, with low density, to reduce stress on turret ... high aluminium alloy or magnezium ? base steel won't change soon

[deadlykitten]

hello mr Wizard good to see you how are the waves ?

Individual turret angles can be adjusted using the Turret angle screen.

once you edit an index value, too smooth the clamping for cw rotation ( for example ), than shock increases on the other direction

of course, i could use it for this setup, but i am looking for a solution that is not depending on setup ( not depending on holders layout )

There is an auto learning procedure that the machine has built into it, but I will not go into it right now due to it's complexity. Read your maintenance manual.

i am "auto" ; i just need "learning" i'll take a look inside that manual ; please, what chapter ? or what should i be looking for ?

there are attached " turret / door " parameters; i played with those marked with blue; i thought that maybe page4pos3, or page6pos1&2 will save the day, but it did not happend

T axis backlash

is there T backlash ? i don't know ...

Which machine are you on?

l b 3 0 0 0 e x 2

Does it have the single motor for indexing as well as driving the m-spindle?

really have no idea ... i never went under the hood with this machines i expect a service team to align a lathe, and i think i will stick with them to learn where and how to service

It always helps to let us know ...

go go marvel team just kidding ... all the best 2 you mr Wizard

ps : i think that "us" means mr and ms Wizard

[deadlykitten]

hello again mr Wizard, let me explain why i really enjoy " we / us " ... " we/us " as a term, not kitty+wizard

there were 2 workers, and one went to the other, saying " come'on, let's do this ..... "

the other replies : " of course, take this and this, and this, and let's do it " ... so he was putting on the table whatever was required to do that thing

after, he continued " now, please, go on " ... the 1st one did not know how to use those, and he just laugh " no, i mean you should do it "

well, this guys are friends, they are going fishing together, but their activities are different, so they do not work together

so every time, i hear someone saying : "let's do this ... " i ask " what is your part in this ? "

also, if there is a team, there are few on same level ... for example, you, mr Wizard, where you work, how many are on same knowledge as you ? professionally speaking ...

if qualification is almost equal, and relations are good, than there is a team + beer
if relations are bad, than it sucks

[deadlykitten]

you are putting up posts, but the conversation is nearly ALL YOU,......won't be long before it is JUST YOU

if on zone will be just the two of us, i guess so

I wonder how many have you on their "Ignore List" ? ...... now that could be a good POLL topic

who knows ? start that poll .... maybe will go viral and make you famous

here, from google : 6 ways to create content that will go viral - Biznology

[deadlykitten]

you think editing something out would fix things

i post same thing twice ... i just put it back how it was

a LB3000 EX II ( a Space Turn with what options ?? ..... it's still only a baby of a machine ) ... ( try running a MacTurn 550-W or a DMU 80 FD, then you'll know what side your bread is buttered )

i am not scared of those just put me near a mac-turn, and i will iso it all way up

if you wish to deliver here such machines, feel free to do it

[deadlykitten]

a LB3000 EX II ( a Space Turn with what options ?? )

whenever clamping occurs, a slice of toasted bread + butter, pumps out i am trying to reduce shock, because there is bread all over the place, and butter on the floor ... what a mess

and i don't use coolant, but liquefied kryptonite / you know, just in case

then you'll know what side your bread is buttered

i did not choose this cnc sector ... it just happened / actually, i wish to work in genetics field, not to only heal people, but to help them think free. Until then, i will stick with this

[deadlykitten]

hello again mr Wizard how are the waves ?

There is an auto learning procedure that the machine has built into it, but I will not go into it right now due to it's complexity. Read your maintenance manual

i read the pages shown in image 3; it leads to " heavy tooling data " option ... i hope there is nothing else

i have attached also the manual inside that archive

at manual page 150 ( pdf page 157 ) okuma recomands to turn on this option if inertia is > 3.3 [ kg * m^2 ]

i hit that value with only 2 holders, and i have much more .... however, is not necessary to do the math, is enough to pay attention how the turret indexes

manual specifies that " Turret rotates slowly after HEAVY TOOLING DATA is switched to Use "; but turret indexing speed is controled by the parameter in image 1; well, i just turn it on ( image 2 )

the shocks are still there, and again, if a post goes smooth on cw, than it has a shock on ccw ... so there is nothing changed here

as the manual sais, this only targest the rotary mechanism, not the clamping ... i just left the option "on" for the moment, and i guess i will switch it "off"

this comes into play only when rotation mechanism does not stop where it should, because of holders weight

T axis backlash can also make a difference as well as the tightness of your indexing belt, coupling and splined shaft tolerances, etc.

i found that "T axis backlash" parameter, in image 1; i don't know what it does, but i think it won't eliminate shocks ...there was a service team yesterday, and i saw for the 1st time the interior of the turret ... the belt is ok and blue ...

Does it have the single motor for indexing as well as driving the m-spindle?

it seems so

i have discussed with the service team the possibility to lenghten the clamping duration, but they are not into this ... after they opened the turret i saw that the turret is big from the outside, but the indexing + clamping mechanism is light, so it can't hold on heavy loads ... is like a big guy on a tiny chair

i can go deeper into this hydra system, but i won't go there if no problems will appear from the shocks / i just don't have time for it now

ps : i did not call the service for these shocks

[deadlykitten]

i hit that value with only 2 holders, and i have much more ...

math reloaded : with 2 holders i reach 0.63 kg * m^2

[deadlykitten]

if turret sense could be selected from code, before an index, shocks will disappear

M86 Turret indexing direction reverse
M87 Cancel of M86
+ leave #1 unchecked

[deadlykitten]

Individual turret angles can be adjusted using the Turret angle screen. This will help to "smooth out" clamping. There is an auto learning procedure that the machine has built into it, but I will not go into it right now due to it's complexity. Read your maintenance manual

hello please mr Wizard, what is this auto-learning procedure ? ... i lost a bet and the maintenance manual

or at least what key-words should i be looking for ? thank you

The T axis backlash can also make a difference

how ? belts are still ok, tightened, but i suppose that if big backlash would exist, it would affect only indexes that rotate the turret in cw + ccw

i don't believe that T backlash affects indexes done without changing rotational sense

however, lb3000ex2 does not seem to be rotated by the belt

---

i remembered this post, because i encountered a situation recently : turret is loaded, and it was heavy oscilating : after rotating to new post, and before clamping, tool was shaking at least ±0.5..1mm arround the final position

there was a big chance that a drill was still oscilating when starting to cut

i activated heavy-tools option, and it definetly made a difference : indexing is more smooth, and i believe that this setting is affecting rotation acc/deceleration

it did not add extra time to the program ( maybe because there are many toolholders ), so i guess i will leave it always on

nice japanese

at high speeds, is not enough to have ipw confirmation, because, even if the encoder reaches target position, there is inertia; controller has no clue what will happen to the axis after ipw confirmation; it will only try to pull it back if it goes to far tadaaaaa

each time i read your posts, i still discover new things / kindly