New owner Torus Pro

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  1. #1

    Default New owner Torus Pro

    Hello, I just purchased a practically new Torus pro. I just finished up building an enclosure for it with a flood coolant system that actually works and dumps chips into a bin.
    To my question, is their a better spindle motor for this thing? I really like the mill and works really well as far as all the axis moves. (Servo motors on X,Y and Z). Very stable and repeatable machine. The issue I am having is that I cant really go much more than .050 stepover, .2 DOC at 40ipm, this is with a 3 flute alumigator 1/2" end mill. Hopefully this week I will get a look at the spindle and motor pulleys to see if there is room to get a smaller spindle pulley or larger motor pulley to get closer to a 1.5 - 1.
    My Grizzly G0704 with a 1.5HP marathon motor and 2-1 ratio, chews some aluminum up quickly. But the rest of the machine, doesn't compare to the Torus pro. Well Mach 3 as its issues that I dont care for. I came from using acorn/centroid
    .
    My other option is to add a CNCdepot FM30 spindle. This is what I am really leaning towards, 12k rpm and get rid of the entire head on the Torus. https://www.cncdepot.net/product-pag...arch-pre-order

    Id like to explore and see what my options are before dumping $3600 on a spindle and have to get all new tool holders. Has anyone changed out the pulleys and or motor to get more range?
    My current VFD is the Sunfar 300 with the braking resistor. It has the PDB as well.

    Thanks in advance.

    Paul

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    Last edited by againstallodds1; 08-29-2022 at 01:08 PM.


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    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    you didn't say what rpm your running at , but you should get more out of your torus than what your getting if your running at full rpm . The torus spindles have far more oomph than g0704 . They aren't high hp motors so only so much can be expected from them though .
    I'd go through the wiring and make sure there is no damage or restrictions , I'd also make sure that the cable from the wall is only as long as needed and a heavy enough gage



  3. #3

    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    Hello,
    I am running the max of 6000 rpm on the Torus, cutting aluminum 6061. The grizzly is also running at 6000 rpm, with the belt drive and new motor/spindle pulleys.
    Grizzly is 2-1 ratio, so the motor isn't turning as fast. Once the Torus gets any kind of load, it bogs down.
    I will try to upload a video here once I figure out how too, on the torus.



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    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    the torus will bog some under load but it should plow it's way through , unless it's bogging to the point of stalling



  5. #5

    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    Here is a video of it in action. This is .05 Stepover, .2 DOC and 40ipm.

    https://youtube.com/shorts/2Hjo3Lwr5BQ?feature=share



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    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    Nice....sounds like the same setup I have....pro w/servos and power drawbar. More spindle HP is my biggest "want" with this machine.

    I can't tell what your load meter is reading on the PDB display. If I get mine up around 60%, there's a good chance the spindle will stall. I get a bit worried when it starts going above 40%. I've recently had it bouncing up over 50%, but as a rule, I don't tend to run continuous cuts over 30%. If it's a long tool path and I want to walk away, I make sure it doesn't stay over 30%. I'd rather the part take a bit longer than have the spindle stall. If the spindle stalls, it takes a second for the vfd to fault out. During that time, the servos will not even notice the increased load and will snap your tool and may even push the head out of tram. Here's an example. This is a programming error, but it shows just how easily the servos will snap a 3/8" tool lol

    I'm pretty sure this cut is about .500" doc, .030"woc and .003ipt on a 3F carbide running at 6000rpms

    I tend to run .003-.004ipt on a 3F carbide for roughing. Depending on the DOC, I will go .030-.060 for the WOC. I pretty much always run at 6000rpms in aluminum.

    Oh.....here's a HUGE tip with mach3......don't stop the machine with the estop and never use feed hold if any of the axis' are moving. Use the ESC key on the key board. Everything just stops. The drivers maintain power so the Z axis won't drop(mine does because I still haven't replaced the gas assist shock).

    Since it's been previously owned, you may want to go through the vfd settings and make sure they're all where they're supposed to be.

    I'm planning on converting mine to the Acorn at some point.

    Interesting spindle option you're looking at. I'd still want enough torque for tapping at low rpms.

    Don't have to be too bright to be me :)
    bluehandsvideo on youtube


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    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    Yes something is awry, it should be able to take a heavier cut or go much faster. Here's a couple more vids of cutting aluminum with nice big chips to compare. I'm using a Hitachi VFD.






  8. #8

    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by mklotz70 View Post
    Nice....sounds like the same setup I have....pro w/servos and power drawbar. More spindle HP is my biggest "want" with this machine.

    I can't tell what your load meter is reading on the PDB display. If I get mine up around 60%, there's a good chance the spindle will stall. I get a bit worried when it starts going above 40%. I've recently had it bouncing up over 50%, but as a rule, I don't tend to run continuous cuts over 30%. If it's a long tool path and I want to walk away, I make sure it doesn't stay over 30%. I'd rather the part take a bit longer than have the spindle stall. If the spindle stalls, it takes a second for the vfd to fault out. During that time, the servos will not even notice the increased load and will snap your tool and may even push the head out of tram. Here's an example. This is a programming error, but it shows just how easily the servos will snap a 3/8" tool lol

    I'm pretty sure this cut is about .500" doc, .030"woc and .003ipt on a 3F carbide running at 6000rpms

    I tend to run .003-.004ipt on a 3F carbide for roughing. Depending on the DOC, I will go .030-.060 for the WOC. I pretty much always run at 6000rpms in aluminum.

    Oh.....here's a HUGE tip with mach3......don't stop the machine with the estop and never use feed hold if any of the axis' are moving. Use the ESC key on the key board. Everything just stops. The drivers maintain power so the Z axis won't drop(mine does because I still haven't replaced the gas assist shock).

    Since it's been previously owned, you may want to go through the vfd settings and make sure they're all where they're supposed to be.

    I'm planning on converting mine to the Acorn at some point.

    Interesting spindle option you're looking at. I'd still want enough torque for tapping at low rpms.

    Thank you for the feedback, appreciate it a lot.
    Sounds like its on par with what it should be then.
    The gas spring was the first thing I replaced on the machine, besides the battery for the PDB motor. I replaced it with this 225lb one from McMaster. Works great and doesn't drop anymore when powered down.
    https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/128/1396
    I ordered a 12v switching power supply for the PDB to give it more power at the little motor. Sometimes it wont loosen and will give me a error. (Happens frequently).

    I have watched quite a few of your videos, and helped me make my decision towards this purchase. The only thing that I wasn't thrilled about is the lack of support (looks like they may be going out of business soon) and possibly getting parts may be a issue. I hope we can get parts down the road if need too, but doesn't look too promising.


    Very impressive on the dual caliper brackets on the ford 9. Is that for a race car/turbo car?
    My mustang is converted to a 9", drag car.
    Ill get a read on my display (PDB) and see what it reads. No load, it is usually around 10%. Not sure if its right because my spindle will never see over 5500rpm. I need to find a default setting and go over everything on the VFW.
    Paul



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    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    Congrats on the mill! I have a Torus Pro, Servos, no tool changer or DBR (Draw Bar Release) but it has been operational since 2013 and going strong.

    I dropped Mach3 back in 2018 and switched to Centroid Acorn, it's a game changer for me, much more robust controller. And it brings me to my next point, the business and parts availability. The controller being one of them, is a big part of any CNC Machine but switching to Acorn makes me now responsible for all electronics. I'm still using the OEM Torus Spindle Motor, VFD, Servos and Maxsine Drives and computer. I'm thankful that I have had no real big issues but anything related to electronics will be on me and I will pursue a different variant if any if those big components fail.

    It's the mechanical components that will be hard to source if little to no support is available. Hopefully we all have some knowledge to help each other through and come up with solutions if we ever need parts. Until then, take care of the equipment and let's not crash our machines.

    I ran a program this morning using on softjaws using a 2flute, 3/8 endmill, .03 WOC, 0.6 DOC and roughly 40 IPM. Like butter and I could push it way more but it's a 2 min cycle and I can wait. Don't have a load meter but plenty of power to give.



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    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by againstallodds1 View Post
    Thank you for the feedback, appreciate it a lot.
    Sounds like its on par with what it should be then.
    The gas spring was the first thing I replaced on the machine, besides the battery for the PDB motor. I replaced it with this 225lb one from McMaster. Works great and doesn't drop anymore when powered down.
    https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/128/1396
    I ordered a 12v switching power supply for the PDB to give it more power at the little motor. Sometimes it wont loosen and will give me a error. (Happens frequently).

    I have watched quite a few of your videos, and helped me make my decision towards this purchase. The only thing that I wasn't thrilled about is the lack of support (looks like they may be going out of business soon) and possibly getting parts may be a issue. I hope we can get parts down the road if need too, but doesn't look too promising.


    Very impressive on the dual caliper brackets on the ford 9. Is that for a race car/turbo car?
    My mustang is converted to a 9", drag car.
    Ill get a read on my display (PDB) and see what it reads. No load, it is usually around 10%. Not sure if its right because my spindle will never see over 5500rpm. I need to find a default setting and go over everything on the VFW.
    Paul
    I have a new gas strut sitting on top of the machine....just waiting. The link only comes up to a catalog page, not a specific strut.

    I think I was one of the first to convert from the battery to a power supply since the wallwart unit kept having issues. Ray (creator of the PDB) pointed me to a 12v 30A unit. They're cheap and I've had one die, so you may want to have a back up PS on hand. I haven't had a problem with it not having enough "umph" after installing the new PS. Do you have plenty of anti-seize on bar threads? My wallwart wasn't keeping the battery fully charged and I had similar issues.

    John(owner of Novakon) is still going to try to keep parts on hand, but he's gotten the short end of the stick with the machine suppliers too many times and will not be bringing in any more machines. The casting is used by another company.....Smithy? ...their Granite model? Someone posted on here in the last few months about a matching machine. I'm not sure what parts are exactly the same. I don't know how complete John or the other company get them. The electronics is probably different, but maybe the servos and mechanicals are the same. John still has some parts on his site. I just put an order in yesterday. As for parts down the road, I'm pretty sure most of the stuff is off the shelf parts and can probably be sourced elsewhere. The BOB might be specific to this machine, but converting to the Acorn should eliminate that.....I think. The ball screws are one of the main items I'd like to find/make. I have a spare spindle already, so a set of screws would help ease my mind.

    Thanks! I'm happy to hear the videos have helped and that you like the caliper brackte. It was for a Datsun 521 truck with a 5.0 stuffed in it. I did custom parts and brakes for the front end and he wanted to run similar calipers on the rear. Ernesto's build...2nd one down the page.... Big Brake, Ball Joint, 5 Lug

    No load around 10% is typical depending on your rpms. The farther from 3600rpms(I believe) the less torque you'll have. Why won't your spindle see over 5500? It's more rare that my spindle runs less than 6000. Any carbide end mill I use..... .500" or smaller.... will almost always be run at 6000. If I could go to 10k, I'd be running at that. lol

    I'm pretty sure I found all the vfd settings in the owners manual that you can download from novakon.net.

    Don't have to be too bright to be me :)
    bluehandsvideo on youtube


  11. #11

    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    Hello,
    I just took a video of the mill cutting with the spindle speed/load shown.
    Something is going on, either with the settings or elsewhere. Usually the max RPM is 5400-5500. It will drop down to 4700rpm range for a little while and come back to 5400. Not sure what I am missing on the settings, but have been trying to diagnose this for the last week.
    Anyone have any ideas?
    Thanks in advance.
    Paul

    https://youtube.com/shorts/KmkGHUxDKVM?feature=share



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    Default

    I would look at the vfd, and the voltage and amperage of the incoming power. If voltage is fluctuating or insufficient amps available then I would solve that first. If those items are good I would suspect the vfd. Imo the cheap Chinese vfds can be flaky.
    If they used a 10 vdc signal from the controller to the vfd you should check that voltage as well.



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    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    That's certainly weird. I agree with Jmhx2. To me, that's not the spindle bogging down from lack of torque......it's speed is being changed....but why/how. It could be a mismatch between what mach is sending(0-10vdc) to the vfd's input and what the vfd is expecting. The vfd may not be set to use a 0-10vdc signal. I think it can be set for 0-5 as well. But....check that input voltage first and see if it's varying. I'm pretty sure you can manual tell the vfd what speed/frequency to put out to the motor. IIRC, you can change the speed with the rotary know if it's set to do that. If it runs the motor at a constant speed, than I'd think the input to the vfd was bad. If it varies, I'd think the vfd had a issue. You should be able to put a dc voltmeter on the input wire and measure the voltage coming in to the vfd.

    Don't have to be too bright to be me :)
    bluehandsvideo on youtube


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    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    I also have a Novakon Torus pro. When cutting aluminum I typically lose about 50 RPM when the cutter engages. I have had a couple of beginner incidents where I hit the vise jaws and the spindle barely slowed down. I started out with a Sunfar VFD like yours but had some issues with it causing electrical interference. I replaced it with a GS2 from Automation Direct. It has performed flawlessly since. If you can maybe put a voltmeter across the input power to the VFD and see if the supply voltage is sagging when the cutter engages.

    The second thing I would do is download the manual for the Torus Pro. Then go to the VFD section and go through all the mentioned settings. It's possible someone changed something before you got the mill.



  15. #15

    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Jmhx2 View Post
    I would look at the vfd, and the voltage and amperage of the incoming power. If voltage is fluctuating or insufficient amps available then I would solve that first. If those items are good I would suspect the vfd. Imo the cheap Chinese vfds can be flaky.
    If they used a 10 vdc signal from the controller to the vfd you should check that voltage as well.
    Thank you will definitely take your advise.
    I will change some of the small wiring in there that feeds the VFD to 14awg, the current looks like 18awg. If that doesnt work, then I can try the VFD. I will check the main wiring as well because my PDB struggles as well when loosening. I get the failure message quite frequently when I go to remove a tool. Always in the beginning of the day when everything is cold. I have more than enough supply going to the outlet, 30amp breaker with 10ga wiring.
    Paul



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    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by againstallodds1 View Post
    Thank you will definitely take your advise.
    I will change some of the small wiring in there that feeds the VFD to 14awg, the current looks like 18awg. If that doesnt work, then I can try the VFD. I will check the main wiring as well because my PDB struggles as well when loosening. I get the failure message quite frequently when I go to remove a tool. Always in the beginning of the day when everything is cold. I have more than enough supply going to the outlet, 30amp breaker with 10ga wiring.
    Paul
    I would still check the input power of the VFD under load. Even with a plentiful supply at the wall it might not be getting to the VFD. A loose connection before the VFD can affect this. It's an easy thing to rule out.

    Are you running the PDB from a lead acid battery? This is how mine was originally set up. Many of us have upgraded the battery to a switching type power supply. This is a recommended upgrade by Ray (The designer of the PDB) it has made quite a difference on mine. If you are still using the original battery it might be getting old.



  17. #17

    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by mklotz70 View Post
    That's certainly weird. I agree with Jmhx2. To me, that's not the spindle bogging down from lack of torque......it's speed is being changed....but why/how. It could be a mismatch between what mach is sending(0-10vdc) to the vfd's input and what the vfd is expecting. The vfd may not be set to use a 0-10vdc signal. I think it can be set for 0-5 as well. But....check that input voltage first and see if it's varying. I'm pretty sure you can manual tell the vfd what speed/frequency to put out to the motor. IIRC, you can change the speed with the rotary know if it's set to do that. If it runs the motor at a constant speed, than I'd think the input to the vfd was bad. If it varies, I'd think the vfd had a issue. You should be able to put a dc voltmeter on the input wire and measure the voltage coming in to the vfd.
    I just changed to manually input on the VFD. Set at 6000rpm, I get the full 6000 rpm now. So now to check the Mach 3 input to see if I am getting the full 10vDC when I should.
    You pointed it out, that it is changing speed and not loosing trq, and that is what is happening. Thanks for pointing it out. Do you know in MACH 3 where the voltage setting is to see if 10vdc is what it should put out?
    Can not seem to find it.
    Thanks Paul



  18. #18

    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    Follow up to my last reply.

    Mach 3 is sending 8.3 - 9.4 volts DC to the VFD when I have commanded 6000rpm in Mach3, It definitely fluctuates. . This may be a Mach 3 or possibly a ESS smooth stepper issue/setting. Not sure where to go from here, but I can get the full 6000 RPMs if I control the VFD myself.

    Last edited by againstallodds1; 09-07-2022 at 10:32 AM.


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    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by againstallodds1 View Post
    Follow up to my last reply.

    Mach 3 is sending 8.3 - 9.4 volts DC to the VFD when I have commanded 6000rpm in Mach3, It definitely fluctuates. . This may be a Mach 3 or possibly a ESS smooth stepper issue/setting. Not sure where to go from here, but I can get the full 6000 RPMs if I control the VFD myself.
    Sorry for the delay.....I don't seem to get notifications for new comments, just the original. I have to come back and look for them.

    That's great that it's been narrowed down a bit. I don't know mach that well. I'll have to dig around a bit when I have the mill fired up. I've never had any issues with my smooth stepper, but I don't know why mach would vary.

    Just to make sure.......the varying voltage at 6000rpms is when you have just the spindle turning at that rpm....correct? You're not measuring that while it's running the toolpath. If that voltage is varying when you simply tell mach to run the spindle at 6000, it should not be. There would be one command sent when you hit F3 or click in mach. Mach won't be sending constantly changing commands, so my guess is that it's not mach. If I remember right, there is an adjustment on the bob to make sure the 10v equals 6000rpms. There's no reason for it to be varying the voltage unless it's possibly bad and the vibrations are causing it to change. It's a small blue component with a screw. You can turn that back and forth a bit to see if it varies the voltage. It should be the adjustment that would raise your 5400 to 6000.....but it shouldn't cause the bouncing of the rpms.

    Don't have to be too bright to be me :)
    bluehandsvideo on youtube


  20. #20

    Default Re: New owner Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by mklotz70 View Post
    Sorry for the delay.....I don't seem to get notifications for new comments, just the original. I have to come back and look for them.

    That's great that it's been narrowed down a bit. I don't know mach that well. I'll have to dig around a bit when I have the mill fired up. I've never had any issues with my smooth stepper, but I don't know why mach would vary.

    Just to make sure.......the varying voltage at 6000rpms is when you have just the spindle turning at that rpm....correct? You're not measuring that while it's running the toolpath. If that voltage is varying when you simply tell mach to run the spindle at 6000, it should not be. There would be one command sent when you hit F3 or click in mach. Mach won't be sending constantly changing commands, so my guess is that it's not mach. If I remember right, there is an adjustment on the bob to make sure the 10v equals 6000rpms. There's no reason for it to be varying the voltage unless it's possibly bad and the vibrations are causing it to change. It's a small blue component with a screw. You can turn that back and forth a bit to see if it varies the voltage. It should be the adjustment that would raise your 5400 to 6000.....but it shouldn't cause the bouncing of the rpms.
    Thank you, greatly appreciate it.
    Well yesterday, I unplugged everything and looked at all the terminals, triple checked all the terminals to make sure they were tight. This morning I fire it up and it sees the full 6000rpms now. I am running a program and it is working great, nothing slowing it down. I am not sure what fixed it, but I would think that it could be the plug that goes in the BOB labeled spindle C300. Every wire was tight , went over them multiple times.
    I am really loving this machine now. Thank you everyone for their input.
    Paul



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