Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

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    Default Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    I am sick of Mach3 all it's bugs, I would like to move to something more stable with the smallest learning curve but reluctant to spend $200 to find out Mach4 isn't the answer I am looking for... Has anyone made the jump to Mach4 on their Torus Pro Servo, and if so what was required, and could you share your thoughts?

    Ray

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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    If you want to get a feel for the status of Mach4, spend some time on the Mach4 forums at ArtSoft. From all I've seen and heard, Mach4 is still not ready for prime time. One very promising option is UCCNC, with one of their motions controllers, like th UC300. And the hardware and software together are cheaper than Mach4 by itself.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    I will be in a position to report on Mach4 on lathe soon, with an industrial quality controller, and submicron-resolution brushless servos.
    Just need to get Mach4 installed on machine, and registered.



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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    I will be very interested in the lathe report, esp. if the G7x canned cycles are working.



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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahamay17 View Post
    I am sick of Mach3 all it's bugs, I would like to move to something more stable with the smallest learning curve but reluctant to spend $200 to find out Mach4 isn't the answer I am looking for... Has anyone made the jump to Mach4 on their Torus Pro Servo, and if so what was required, and could you share your thoughts?

    Ray
    If you already have the smoothstepper, Mach4 would be worth a try, as the UC300 only has an output of 100KHz, this is no good if you have high count Encoders

    Why and what problems are you having with Mach3, with having the smoothstepper, Mach3 is not doing very much, It just sends your program to the smoothstepper the smoothstepper controls your machine

    Last edited by mactec54; 11-25-2015 at 11:08 AM. Reason: missed the K on hertz setting
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    If you already have the smoothstepper, Mach4 would be worth a try, as the UC300 only has an output of 100Hz, this is no good if you have high count Encoders

    Why and what problems are you having with Mach3, with having the smoothstepper, Mach3 is not doing very much, It just sends your program to the smoothstepper the smoothstepper controls your machine
    Wrong on both counts. The UC 300 has a maximum output rate of 100 kHz, which is 300 IPM at the steps/inch of a Torus Pro. And Mach3 still does PLENTY even with a motion controller. It most certainly does NOT simply "send your program to the smoothstepper". The PC still does ALL g-code interpretation and trajectory planning, whcih is the computationally intensive part of the job, then sends short, very low-level motion commands to the motion controller. Very nearly the only thing that is eliminated from the PC when a motion controller is used rather than the parallel port is the parallel port driver, and the high-rate interrupts used to bit-bang the I/Os.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    If you already have the smoothstepper, Mach4 would be worth a try, as the UC300 only has an output of 100Hz, this is no good if you have high count Encoders

    Why and what problems are you having with Mach3, with having the smoothstepper, Mach3 is not doing very much, It just sends your program to the smoothstepper the smoothstepper controls your machine
    We have 3 different machines being ran by Mach3 all have the similar issues...spindle failing to start would be the most common...it doesn't happen on the Torus Pro Server as often as it happens on the other two, but when it does the end result is far worse...on the two stepper machines stopping the running toolpath results in lost job coordinates if it is caught before the tool hits the work piece... On the Torus it seldom gets caught in time due to the faster rapids, sometimes it results in just a broken tool, but sometimes there is an error for lost data from the servos and job coordinates are lost as well as a broken tool... Also on all three machines random stopping in the middle of running a job with no rhyme or reason and no error message reported...on the Torus Pro Servo this results in Mach3 having to be shut down and the PC rebooted, and job coordinates being lost...Saturday evening this happened on the Torus Pro and once everything was shut down and restarted Mach3 began giving an error message and would not function...after searching for the solutions to get Mach3 back up and running, none of which worked, I removed and re-installed it and now it works as before but no longer recognizes my license even though the files were saved and replaced...I even went into my account at newfangled and had the license files resent, still stuck in demo mode, still waiting for solution from their support dept...

    When I bought the Torus Pro Servo I seriously considered the Tormach PCNC1100 because it would have allowed me to get away from Mach3...in the end the work cube and rapids of the Torus Pro Servo won out by a long shot, but I so wanted/want to get away from Mach3

    Ray



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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    The UC 300 has a maximum output rate of 100 kHz, which is 300 IPM at the steps/inch of a Torus Pro.

    Regards,
    Ray L.
    Does the mean rapids with the UC 300 would be limited to 300 IPM?

    Ray



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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    If you want to get a feel for the status of Mach4, spend some time on the Mach4 forums at ArtSoft. From all I've seen and heard, Mach4 is still not ready for prime time.

    Regards,
    Ray L.
    I figured as much, but I had to ask...thanks for your input!

    Ray



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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    Wrong on both counts. The UC 300 has a maximum output rate of 100 kHz, which is 300 IPM at the steps/inch of a Torus Pro. And Mach3 still does PLENTY even with a motion controller. It most certainly does NOT simply "send your program to the smoothstepper". The PC still does ALL g-code interpretation and trajectory planning, whcih is the computationally intensive part of the job, then sends short, very low-level motion commands to the motion controller. Very nearly the only thing that is eliminated from the PC when a motion controller is used rather than the parallel port is the parallel port driver, and the high-rate interrupts used to bit-bang the I/Os.

    Regards,
    Ray L.
    I corrected the post just missed the K which is important for nitpickers like you, I have both systems and know what works best, and how it all works, smoothstepper outperforms the UC100 & 300 by far

    I just gave the basic information on the external controllers,most people are not interested in how it works, only if it works, and how good it is

    For your information a 100 Khz is not enough for quality servos with High Count Encoders unless you use electronic gearing, which not all servo drives have

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahamay17 View Post
    Does the mean rapids with the UC 300 would be limited to 300 IPM?

    Ray
    Actually that is in theory, in reality it is a lot less than that

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahamay17 View Post
    Does the mean rapids with the UC 300 would be limited to 300 IPM?

    Ray
    If you know the encoder counts per revolution on your servos then you can calculate the maximum speed of the motor at 100kHz.
    And if you know the gearing/pitch on your machine axis then you can calculate how much feedrate that gives you.
    For my 2 machines 50kHz is still more than enough they are not Novakons though.



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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahamay17 View Post
    Does the mean rapids with the UC 300 would be limited to 300 IPM?

    Ray
    Unless you change the "electronic gearing" in the servo drives, yes. But that is an easy change to make, and will make no difference in real-world performance - it will simply reduce your (theoretical) minimum step size from 0.0001" to 0.0002". Give the overall precision of the machine, you'll never notice the difference. By simply halving the electronic gearing, you'd be good up to 600 IPM, which is more than the servos are really good for. I run mine at 350IPM.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    For your information a 100 Khz is not enough for quality servos with High Count Encoders unless you use electronic gearing, which not all servo drives have
    Yes, but we're talking here specifically about the Novakon Torus Pro, which DOES have high-count encoders, and DOES have electronic gearing. It helps to stay on-topic....

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahamay17 View Post
    We have 3 different machines being ran by Mach3 all have the similar issues...spindle failing to start would be the most common...it doesn't happen on the Torus Pro Server as often as it happens on the other two, but when it does the end result is far worse...on the two stepper machines stopping the running toolpath results in lost job coordinates if it is caught before the tool hits the work piece... On the Torus it seldom gets caught in time due to the faster rapids, sometimes it results in just a broken tool, but sometimes there is an error for lost data from the servos and job coordinates are lost as well as a broken tool... Also on all three machines random stopping in the middle of running a job with no rhyme or reason and no error message reported...on the Torus Pro Servo this results in Mach3 having to be shut down and the PC rebooted, and job coordinates being lost...Saturday evening this happened on the Torus Pro and once everything was shut down and restarted Mach3 began giving an error message and would not function...after searching for the solutions to get Mach3 back up and running, none of which worked, I removed and re-installed it and now it works as before but no longer recognizes my license even though the files were saved and replaced...I even went into my account at newfangled and had the license files resent, still stuck in demo mode, still waiting for solution from their support dept...

    When I bought the Torus Pro Servo I seriously considered the Tormach PCNC1100 because it would have allowed me to get away from Mach3...in the end the work cube and rapids of the Torus Pro Servo won out by a long shot, but I so wanted/want to get away from Mach3

    Ray
    You can always get the best of both worlds, by running PathPilot on your Novakon. There's a whole thread here about how to do that. Or, look at UCCNC and either a UC-100 or UC-300.

    I used Mach3 for years on my old machine, and had no end of problems. I finally tossed it out, installed a KFlop motion controller, and wrote my own CNC controller software. That's what I've been running on all of my machines ever since, and I've had ZERO problems that were not caused by either hardware problems, or user error. Mach3 is just inherently unstable. It works well for some people, works terribly for some people (I was one of those) ,and for most work ok, with occassional bizarre things happening. As Mach3 ceased being updated several years ago, it will never get better, and Mach4 is not yet ready for prime time. So, your choices are:

    1) Live wth Mach3, knowing that it will throw an occassional curve ball, and any bugs you encounter will NOT be fixed.
    2) Live with Mach4, knowing that it still very much a work in progress, with it's own problems
    3) Try LinuxCNC which, by all reports, works well, but it not the easiest thing in the world to configure, ,and can be a challenge to customize
    4) Try PathPilot, which seems to have overall very positive reviews, though it is not 100% compatible at the g-code level (i.e. - it does NOT follow the Fanuc standard as Mach3 does)
    5) Try a UC100 or UC300 with their UCCNC controller software. This looks to me like one of the better options out there right now. And it's cheap, at well under $200 for both hardware and software.
    6) Try a KFlop. It's wonderful but you have to be willing to do some c programming to even get it setup and running on any machine

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    There is also Eding CNC, which I have heard does a good job. In the next year it looks like i'll be doing a retrofit to a plasma with his industrial board.



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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    Yes, but we're talking here specifically about the Novakon Torus Pro, which DOES have high-count encoders, and DOES have electronic gearing. It helps to stay on-topic....

    Regards,
    Ray L.
    Pretending to know something again, that others don't already know

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Pretending to know something again, that others don't already know
    I'm not "pretending" to know anything. I have both a Torus Pro Servo, and a Pulsar Servo. I am quite familiar with the motors, drivers, and encoders, and exactly what they are capable of.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by SCzEngrgGroup View Post
    I'm not "pretending" to know anything. I have both a Torus Pro Servo, and a Pulsar Servo. I am quite familiar with the motors, drivers, and encoders, and exactly what they are capable of.

    Regards,
    Ray L.
    You did not get it, you fell for that one, enjoy your Turkey

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Mach4 on the Torus Pro Servo....

    Quote Originally Posted by xjdubber View Post
    There is also Eding CNC, which I have heard does a good job. In the next year it looks like i'll be doing a retrofit to a plasma with his industrial board.
    Went to their website, figured since it is a try before you buy I would at least give it a look...never did get the program to open, even installed it on 3 different computers...

    Ray



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