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Thread: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

  1. #49
    Registered bill south's Avatar
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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    I believe the novakon was cutting corian!

    billyjack
    Helicopter def. = Bunch of spare parts flying in close formation! USAF 1974 ;>)


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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Actually, they have videos out of the Novakons in action at Cabin Fever.

    I think though that they focused on the ability to drill and rigid tap way too much. Who cares about rigid tapping. The extra money just so you can say " my machine can rigid tap" is not worth it. T/C works just as well.
    I like this thread. It helps to see exactly what the machine is like behind the makeup. The paint, I don't really care about that.
    I am looking forward to the BT30 spindle and ATC.
    Comparing a Tormach to this, that's just not even in the same ballpark. 2 different machines. When and if Tormach ever get off their laurels and offer a servo upgrade/option, then we can start comparing.



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    Gold Member LeeWay's Avatar
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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by hjl4 View Post
    Actually, they have videos out of the Novakons in action at Cabin Fever.

    I think though that they focused on the ability to drill and rigid tap way too much. Who cares about rigid tapping. The extra money just so you can say " my machine can rigid tap" is not worth it.
    Rigid tapping didn't actually cost extra. Just a side benefit. A huge bonus for me actually. Almost everything I make gets tapped holes. I make lots of parts each week. So, who cares? This guy does. Also, my Torus was less cost than a 770.

    Lee


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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    So what your really saying is that rigid tapping is what tipped the scale in its favor?
    I hope everyone who follows this thread, in the hopes of 'upgrading' to a Novakon, isn't making their purchasing decision solely on the benefit of RT. Because it is not much and it doesn't save you much in the way of time.
    I would rather look at the work envelope which is quite generous on these machines, and spindle speed. The added bonus in question, well believe me you paid for it by the Servo upgrade.
    To each his own I guess.
    From what I can see having followed a few threads on this forum, there are many inconsistencies from one machine to the next in the same family. That puzzles me. If you are saying that doesn't matter, well then I give up.
    I guess brand loyalty is everything. Go figure.



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    Gold Member LeeWay's Avatar
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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by hjl4 View Post
    So what your really saying is that rigid tapping is what tipped the scale in its favor?
    I hope everyone who follows this thread, in the hopes of 'upgrading' to a Novakon, isn't making their purchasing decision solely on the benefit of RT. Because it is not much and it doesn't save you much in the way of time.
    I would rather look at the work envelope which is quite generous on these machines, and spindle speed. The added bonus in question, well believe me you paid for it by the Servo upgrade.
    To each his own I guess.
    From what I can see having followed a few threads on this forum, there are many inconsistencies from one machine to the next in the same family. That puzzles me. If you are saying that doesn't matter, well then I give up.
    I guess brand loyalty is everything. Go figure.
    It wasn't an upgrade on the machine I bought. The Torus always shipped with a servo spindle. I am certain I paid for it, but didn't pay it as an upgrade. I got the website listed factory price. Size was also a big consideration for me. Both the 1100 and the Pro are too much machine for my needs. I have no reason to buy such a large machine when the Torus has travel to spare.
    We were previously tapping by hand and you better believe that rigid tapping saves us plenty of time and lost wages. I program most of my parts with Sheetcam and it has a post to use the RT on the Torus.
    So, you are making blanket statements that don't actually cover everyone. Brand loyalty has nothing to do with it. I bought the machine that best suited my needs.

    Lee


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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by hjl4 View Post
    So what your really saying is that rigid tapping is what tipped the scale in its favor?
    I hope everyone who follows this thread, in the hopes of 'upgrading' to a Novakon, isn't making their purchasing decision solely on the benefit of RT. Because it is not much and it doesn't save you much in the way of time.
    I would rather look at the work envelope which is quite generous on these machines, and spindle speed. The added bonus in question, well believe me you paid for it by the Servo upgrade.
    To each his own I guess.
    From what I can see having followed a few threads on this forum, there are many inconsistencies from one machine to the next in the same family. That puzzles me. If you are saying that doesn't matter, well then I give up.
    I guess brand loyalty is everything. Go figure.
    You seem to assume everyone has the same requirements as you, which is simply not true. For Lee, who does a lot of tapping, rigid tapping can indeed save a lot of time and hassle, and it's much more convenient than using a tapping head. It's also very ATC-friendly, so when he has an ATC, he'll be able to tap unattended. For me, I don't do a huge amount of tapping, so it wouldn't save me a great deal of time, but I'd still like to have it, all else being equal. Besides, there are some real advantages to rigid tapping, especially on blind holes. But, I'm guessing from your comments that you've never done it, so don't really know what the trade-offs are in all the different methods.

    As Lee pointed out, the Servo spindle is NOT an "upgrade". It is standard on the Pulsar, whether you buy a stepper or servo machine.

    For many people, more work area, or higher spindle speed, are of little or no value. Again, it depends on the work you do. That's why Tormach also sells two very different machines. Doesn't make either machine better or worse than the other - the machine must be suited to its intended use.

    None of that gives you good reason to insult someones honesty or integrity, and "brand loyalty" has nothing to do with any of it. Some of us actually USE these machines to run our businesses, so we know very well what works and what doesn't, and would make the same choices again.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Dang
    I feel kinda responsible for the Hijacking of Dan's thread I was only pointing out my observations between the machines I saw at Cabin Fever. I never thought my post would have ruffled your feathers hj, Didn't mean to sorry about that.
    What say we give Dan his thread back, I realy am enjoying what hes is doing.
    Now as they say on the TV news.................................Back to you Dan.



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    So, Dan, it looks like you're putting on Teco drives and servos. That's pretty serious stuff! What size did you go with?

    -Steve



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Hi hl4 what are your machine requirements exactely ? If you consider an European machine i May might help

    Gesendet von meinem SM-N9005 mit Tapatalk



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Well this post is long overdue and I have a lot of information to share.

    Last Thursday (April 24th) my 1 meter Hiwin linear rails and bearings that I scored from ebay arrived. As I mentioned before I did some measuring that there is more then 11.75” of usable ball screw on the Z axis. After getting a quote from my local Hiwin guy for 2 rails at 700mm totaling over $1160 I decided it was not worth it unless I could score some rails cheap. It just so happens that my quick ebay search found a pair of used rails 1 meter long with no bids starting at $199.98. So I put $201 on them and got lucky. I gave them a quick inspection and they look great. In this process I did discover the Hiwin part number I posted before was wrong for just a rail. To by the rails only the part number is HGR25H.

    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4410-jpg

    Last Friday (April 25th) was a day of much anticipation for me. As I have mentioned before I had ordered a BT30 spindle from China via the webpage Aliexpress.com. I was very nervous about this one portion of the mill project because I have never used the webpage before and it has you working directly with the vendor in China. Between the spindle, spindle bearing upgrades and the air/hydraulic draw bar release cylinder I ordered I had about $1600 sitting in limbo. To add to the tension the vendor had some trouble the first time they assembled the spindle and it took an additional week and a half to ship. Last Monday (April 21st) I got an email saying the order was marked as shipped; Tuesday I got an email stating DHL had picked up the packages. I watched as the packages progressed through DHL and as of Thursday it was scheduled to be delivered on Friday. Work on Friday seemed to crawl by as I was waiting to leave and go check out my spindle, I got the email update late in the afternoon saying it was delivered. After work I headed straight for the machine shop where I had it delivered. Pictures are below. The cylinder was in a very thick walled cardboard box and appears to be in perfect shape. The spindle came in a wooden crate very well packed inside.

    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4398-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4400-jpg

    The crate was packed full of ground out linen and on the top was a pair of cotton gloves with rubber coated palms and fingers and under them was a small pile of clean cloth wipes. After disposing off all the shredded linen I was down the spindle wrapped up in stretch wrap like a burrito from Chipoltle, and nearly the same size. After removing the stretch wrap I discovered they had generously oiled the spindle to prevent corrosion before wrapping it to seal it up. I could tell great care was taken with the spindle to ensure it arrived just as it left the factory.

    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4403-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4404-jpg

    The bearings are so smooth, the machining is beautiful. I did place the spindle in a large V block and stuck an indicator into the tool taper just to check and the pointer never moved in any of the places I checked. When I placed a BT30 tool holder into it feels solid like it is one with the spindle.

    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4405-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4408-jpg


    So now all my worries were gone and nothing could go wrong now, or could it. I started tearing apart the rest of the headstock down to the linear bearings to prepare for the new rails. When I got the Z axis ball screw and ball nut off I ran it back and forth by hand. I discovered it would periodically “stick” but backing it up and going the same direction again it would clear its self. I decided that after finding the paint on the ball screw it would be best to clean this one out. I started by wiping the entire screw down while spinning it in a drill (slowly) with a clean paper towel. I made sure to press it into the root of the ball grove. While doing this I taped the ball nut in place so it would not move. After several passes it paper towels came back clean so not it was time to move the nut. I hung the ball screw up from the ceiling and untapped it, I now moved it by hand until I cleared the area of the ball screw it was covering. I then cleaned the ball screw with clean paper towel again. Now my plan was to fill the ball nut with Mobile Vactra 2 way oil (the same stuff it will get from the lube system) and spin the ball nut up and down the ball screw by hand. After going up or down I would wipe the ball screw off and refill the nut. Well this resulted in a disturbing amount of dirt and debris on the paper towel (all coming from inside the ball nut). After an hour of this I was still getting stuff in the oil. So I decided to dig deeper, I backed the screws out that hold the “wipers” in place on the ball nut. And this is what I found. At this point I was not happy and decided that all the ball screws were coming out and getting inspected. But it was time to call it a night.

    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4388-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4389-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4391-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4392-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4395-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4396-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4397-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4412-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4413-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4416-jpg


    Saturday (April 26th) I started the tear down of the table and saddle so I could pull the ball screws out and inspect.
    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4420-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4422-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4423-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4424-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4426-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4427-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4428-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4432-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4434-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4438-jpg

    After tearing it all apart I was down to the X and Y ball screws. I started by washing the exterior of the screws in my parts washer. Some background on the parts washer I have a special setup with a 25 micron pre-filter followed by a 5 micron absolute filter leading to my hand wand. I built this parts washer for cleaning bearings and transmission parts without the fear of adding contamination to the parts. I used an old toothbrush and scrubbed down the bearing and the ball screw. Once I felt they were clean I connected an adapter to the solvent hand wand that allowed me to pump clean solvent right into the lube connection point on the ball nut. I then ran the ball nuts up and down the ball screws by hand while continuously pumping solvent through the ball nut. I also removed the wipers and cleaned the accumulated scuz out of the inside of them. While flushing the ball nuts I did all the work over a clean stainless steel tray to catch as much of what ever was in the ball nuts as I could. This is what I collected.

    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4441-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4443-jpg

    After the flushing with clean solvent I put the wipers back in place and hung the ball screws up to be lubed. Again I filled the ball nuts with Vactra 2, ran them up and down a bit and filled them up again. Now they are just waiting to be installed.

    The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4439-jpgThe order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro-imag4440-jpg

    Since I have the mill table/saddle torn down this far I decided to run the saddle through the parts washer to get all the packing grease off. Then I rinsed it with lacquer thinner and masked off all the bearing surfaces. I then sprayed it with some New Ford Gray engine paint (it’s all I had on hand). I know it is not needed but I figured if it is painted coolant and oil should run off better. Even though I like the nice ground surface on the front and back having it painted means one less surface to worry about rusting if the humidity gets high in my garage. Sunday night I was able to stop at Lowes and look for the paint someone had recommended. Which they do not sell that exact color but they did have another color that was close so I got a can of that and will be spraying the outside surfaces of the saddle with that.



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    To address some questions that have been asked

    Quote Originally Posted by Windscreen View Post
    So, Dan, it looks like you're putting on Teco drives and servos. That's pretty serious stuff! What size did you go with?

    -Steve
    Yes, I ended up going with Teco motors and drives. I picked 750 watt motors for the X and the Y axis, and a 1000 watt motor with brake for the Z axis. I would consider them middle of the road between DMM and Mitsubishi or Yaskawa.


    Quote Originally Posted by johnedward View Post
    And the novakon was cutting wood right?

    engnerdan, good job on the honest reporting of the state of your machine, I don't view it as nit-picking myself, it is what it is, facts. looking forward to your build progress too.
    Thanks, I am not trying to be nit-picky I am just trying to be truthful and just state the way things are. I am not out to bash anybody or make anybody look bad. I am just showing things the way they actually are. But back to the paint thing I am a little bummed but not heart broken that it does not match after all these things sell for $10,550 plus shipping. I know its not a Haas or some other big name but does that mean we should not expect parts to match? I can buy a Grizzly for $1000 and it matches head to toe.


    Quote Originally Posted by hayes View Post
    Take a look at Smithy's headstock for these machines. If you can get a casting you'll be all set with a more rigid head stock design.

    Attachment 233910
    That would make life easier but Smithy really seems to struggle in putting usable info on their webpage. The parts diagram for the mill shows one identical to the Torus Pro not the rigid head like in that picture.


    Quote Originally Posted by mountaindew View Post
    This is a good reading so far and will be fun to follow along on your build.
    Don't forget room for 4th axis driver in your cabinet, Just kidding, I cant see drawing and I know very little about machine design.
    Anyway I like to follow setups and builds like this, Keep up the good work!
    md
    Excellent point and I have a little space provisioned for a 4th axis and hopefully all I need for the tool changer. Granted it is not in the plans but I can not say I would not like a 4th axis at some point.



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    Default Re: The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

    Dan,

    You're doing a great job on your teardown/cleanup. All of the pictures you're posting is fantastic. I know first hand how much work it is to write these kind of posts and get all of the pictures uploaded.

    Did you ever consider removing the ballnut from the ballscrew for cleaning and inspection?

    It is hard to tell from your pictures, but how does your saddle look? Any hand grinding on the saddle ways or hand grinding of the oil grooves?

    Titaniumboy



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The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro

The order has been placed - The beginning of a custom Torus Pro