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  1. #321
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    Default Re: Just ordered the last melon (Torus)

    One of the issues I ran into was that I was using endmills and drills and chamfer bits in the regular R8 collets, which are non-repeatable for tool length. And so whenever I changed tools I had to change the Z zero. What a pain in the rear.

    This set of Novakon-labeled TTS clone holders came with my mill. As you can see, this set only came with two endmill holders, a drill chuck, and only one ER20 collet chuck. And only 4 ER20 collets.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-novakon-tts-clone-1-jpg



    And here is a pic of the 3/4" R8 TTS collet. That collet did not come looking like that from Novakon. I finally discovered in October 2019 that the R8 TTS collet from Novakon had too long of a nose that prevented the TTS tool holder from seating onto the spindle face.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-novakon-tts-modified-collet-jpg



    First I did some rough grinding on the bench grinder. And then I used an air powered mini die grinder to do a seriously poor imitation of a cylindrical surface grinder.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-tts-collet-grinding-1-jpg



    This worked. Sort of. The mini die grinder was very underpowered, and so it took a LOT of tiny passes to remove enough material for cleanup. I was taking a thou or less per pass and even that was close to stalling the die grinder. And you can see that the surface finish left by the mini die grinder was less than stellar.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-tts-collet-grinding-2-jpg



    I used a set of micromesh sanding cloths on the kitchen counter top to eventually reach a mirror finish. The polishing of the collet was overkill since all that was needed was for the collet to have clearance.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-tts-collet-polishing-1-jpgJust ordered the last melon (Torus)-tts-collet-polishing-2-jpg



    I need more TTS ER20 collet chucks so that I can build up a collection of preset tools. Since the inexpensive eBay TTS collets chucks all seem to be out of stock, I was forced to buy the expensive ones from Tormach at $45 each. Three Tormach collet chucks should arrive from Little Machine Shop by Thursday, plus a set of ER20 collets are also on their way.

    So my next challenge is figuring out how to measure tool length offsets and setup the tool table in UCCNC.



  2. #322
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    Default Re: Just ordered the last melon (Torus)

    "I am using the smallest nozzle and it puts out an impressive coolant stream even with being throttled down by the ball valve. On a recent part the nozzle got displaced by running into the part and so the cutter didn't have coolant being sprayed on it. It took less than 5 or 10 seconds for the HSS 1/4" endmill to have a serious aluminum chip weld occur and I had to hit the emergency stop on your old jog pendant."

    I did not know how to only quote part of your reply so I did a cut and paste.

    That is another reason why I use two nozzles. I use the middle size nozzle from the kit. My enclosure has no top on it. When I used the small one there was so much pressure it would blow coolant over the top. One should always be directing at least some coolant to the part. As for cheap collets you can find them on Amazon too. That is where I bought mine from. A whole set on amazon was about the same price as one name brand collet.Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-dsc_0282-jpg

    The photo is my current flood coolant setup.

    Have you ever seen a photo of the drain on the new type of novakon stand? you could dump coolant straight out of a 5 gallon bucket and not overwhelm it.



  3. #323

    Default Re: Just ordered the last melon (Torus)

    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    Thanks for that link. I didn't realize you could buy the coolant rings commercially. I may still machine my own just because I need the practice. I spend a stupid amount of time in CAD and CAM because I just haven't used them enough to get efficient.

    The drain is an issue, but I'm getting surprisingly good results in clearing away chips even with my neutered flood coolant.

    Are you getting 2000gph? I'm going to call a party foul on you because that would be a crazy 33 gallons per minute. Seriously though, I really should measure my throttled down flow rate. I'm guessing I am somewhere between 2 and 4 gpm.
    So my pump is a water feature pump (i think I am repeating myself but am too lazy to look), so it does volume well, pressure not so much. That said, you made me curious and instead of guessing I measured it. I didn't measure at the outlets, instead I measured from line that feeds coolant ring. So... I measured the volume I can feed the coolant ring, who knows what actually comes out.

    To do the test I used a gallon jug and timed how long it took to fill. I did this a few times, but all the results came in at right around 6 seconds. So that's 10 gallons per minute, and (60*10) 600gph. For the record, the pump I run claims 2650gph, but being a Chinese no-name thing that I paid almost nothing for I wouldn't be surprised if that number is vastly inflated.

    All of that said, it looks like you are getting great results. That wrench looks awesome! So keep on doing what you are doing!



  4. #324
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    Default Re: Just ordered the last melon (Torus)

    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy
    Three Tormach Collet chucks should arrive from Little Machine Shop by Thursday.


    I have some good news and some bad news.

    The good news is that the Tormach ER20 Collet chucks arrived a day early from Little Machine Shop. Those guys are really great and I really should use them more often.

    The bad news is that the Tormach collet chucks are different from the Novakon collet chucks that I have. The Tormach holders have a much shallower undercut than does the Novakon holder, as shown in the second picture.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-2aa1dde9-9bea-49a7-b17a-5037ae3bbfe1-jpg. Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-85a32fbf-b6c0-41aa-a1e9-bceb09f00ed3-jpg



    This means that the R8 holder that I had to grind down in order for the Novakon holders to seat against the spindle face will absolutely not work for the newly arrived Tormach holders. There is a good .050” that has to come off of the R8 holder, maybe even up to .090” or .100”.

    It just [censored] never ends...



  5. #325
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    Default Re: Just ordered the last melon (Torus)

    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    I have some good news and some bad news.

    The good news is that the Tormach ER20 Collet chucks arrived a day early from Little Machine Shop. Those guys are really great and I really should use them more often.

    The bad news is that the Tormach collet chucks are different from the Novakon collet chucks that I have. The Tormach holders have a much shallower undercut than does the Novakon holder, as shown in the second picture.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-2aa1dde9-9bea-49a7-b17a-5037ae3bbfe1-jpg. Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-85a32fbf-b6c0-41aa-a1e9-bceb09f00ed3-jpg



    This means that the R8 holder that I had to grind down in order for the Novakon holders to seat against the spindle face will absolutely not work for the newly arrived Tormach holders. There is a good .050” that has to come off of the R8 holder, maybe even up to .090” or .100”.

    It just [censored] never ends...
    Can you just order a master R-8 collet from Tormach? Or maybe face the collet you have now with a facing bit in a vise...



  6. #326
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    Default Re: Just ordered the last melon (Torus)

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    Can you just order a master R-8 collet from Tormach?
    The Tormach TTS Adapter Collet is $40. Kind of spendy for a 3/4” R8 collet. I had ground down the Novakon adapter collet last October, so I figured that I could grind it down some more.

    Using a genuine Tormach TTS holder, I measured the gap between the Novakon collet and the spindle nose at about 0.071”. I will probably take off 0.090” or 0.100” to be sure.

    I checked this collet in my G0704 mill and also in a Bridgeport mill. The gap in both mills was less than on the Novakon mill, but still present. Apparently the spindle nose on my Novakon mill is a tad shorter than on other mills, and so the R8 collet sticks out a bit further. Again that is with using a Tormach TTS holder.


    Or maybe face the collet you have now with a facing bit in a vise..
    That sounds like a great idea, but aren’t R8 collets hardened? I would love to be able to machine the collet face in my lathe.

    Last edited by Titaniumboy; 09-18-2020 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Checked gap in other mills


  7. #327

    Default Re: Just ordered the last melon (Torus)

    I faced my Novakon collet in the spindle, tool held in the vise. I used a decent carbide insert lathe tool. It came out great.



  8. #328
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    Default Re: Just ordered the last melon (Torus)

    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    The Tormach TTS Adapter Collet is $40. Kind of spendy for a 3/4” R8 collet. I had ground down the Novakon adapter collet last October, so I figured that I could grind it down some more.

    Using a genuine Tormach TTS holder, I measured the gap between the Novakon collet and the spindle nose at about 0.071”. I will probably take off 0.090” or 0.100” to be sure.

    I checked this collet in my G0704 mill and also in a Bridgeport mill. The gap in both mills was less than on the Novakon mill, but still present. Apparently the spindle nose on my Novakon mill is a tad shorter than on other mills, and so the R8 collet sticks out a bit further. Again that is with using a Tormach TTS holder.




    That sounds like a great idea, but aren’t R8 collets hardened? I would love to be able to machine the collet face in my lathe.
    From the Tormach TTS manual:

    If you find these geometry issues on a machine that has an R8 spindle taper, the best solution is to use
    the Tormach TTS-R8 collet. This is a special variation of a precision R8 collet with the end of the collet
    ground flat and the overall length slightly less than the standard length. The TTS-R8 collet is included
    with each TTS kit, or it can be purchased separately.
    If your machine exhibits the geometry problems mentioned above and does not use R8, or if you wish
    to use your existing R8 collet, the solution is to modify the collet. Using a disk sander or bench grinder,
    a hardened collet can easily be shortened about 1/8”. Be sure to avoid overheating the collet by grinding
    lightly. Pause the grinding process occasionally and dunk the collet it in water to keep the temperature
    low. Grinding open the internal diameter is more time consuming, but not really more difficult. A small
    die grinder (Dremel tool or similar) with a long shank grinding wheel can be used, but be careful not to
    grind the precision section of the collet that will grasp the shank of the TTS holder.

    I was lucky with my collet I guess. I even bought a spare that is just a regular R8 and it works fine.

    Here is a link to the manual. Its worth downloading lots of information in there.

    https://littlemachineshop.com/images...ing_System.pdf



  9. #329
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    Default Re: Just ordered the last melon (Torus)

    Quote Originally Posted by CL_MotoTech
    All of that said, it looks like you are getting great results. That wrench looks awesome! So keep on doing what you are doing!

    Thanks! That means a lot coming from someone who has done as much machining as you have. I am constantly amazed by what you achieve on your G0704.


    Quote Originally Posted by upnorth
    From the Tormach TTS manual: [snip] Here is a link to the manual. Its worth downloading lots of information in there.

    By coincidence, I had downloaded that TTS manual the night before you posted this. But somehow I had skipped over the part where they discussed grinding the collet.


    Quote Originally Posted by CL_MotoTech
    I faced my Novakon collet in the spindle, tool held in the vise. I used a decent carbide insert lathe tool. It came out great.

    I don't have any decent carbide insert lathe tools as all that I have are cheapos from Banggood. But what the heck, let's give it a go. I centered up the lathe tool as best I could with a wiggler.

    Then I ran the calculations for RPM and feed. The results were surprising, at least to me. Using a Surface Speed of 100 and a diameter of 1.25" yielded an RPM of 320. This RPM and a 0.001" chipload per tooth per revolution gave a feed of 0.32" per minute. Wow, much slower than I would have guessed.


    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-novakon-collet-milling-1-jpg


    Here is the first pass. Looking halfway decent so far.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-novakon-collet-milling-2-jpg


    I took 0.015" on each pass. This was the last pass. These passes in the mill left some really nasty burrs, especially on the interior diameter. The collet now has the correct stickout so that the new Tormach TTS tool holders will work.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-novakon-collet-last-pass-jpg



    And here is the finished Novakon collet. I ended up doing the chamfers in my G0602 lathe. My Banggood insert lathe tools didn't have very much clearance for the ID chamfer, so in desperation I tried chamfering with my HSS lathe tool. To my surprise the HSS cut the Novakon collet like butter. Very hard butter.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-novakon-collet-finished-jpg



    I decided to take one of my no-name 3/4" collets and make a TTS collet adapter for my G0704 mill. This did not go nearly as well as the Novakon collet.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-name-collet-milling-1-jpg



    Evidently the no-name collet was harder than the Novakon collet. I ended up destroying two carbide inserts getting it to this point. And I still have some small ID burrs. Whereas I was able to cut chamfers on the Novakon collet with HSS, this no-name collet chewed up my HSS tools for lunch.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-name-collet-milling-2-jpg



    Next step is to setup the TTS holders with some tools, measure them on the surface plate, and enter the tool offsets into UCCNC. And then I have to measure my coolant pump flow rate for CL_MotoTech.



  10. #330
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    Default Re: Just ordered the last melon (Torus)

    Nice job mill turning. I picked up a few ER32 TTS Tool Holders, collets and a few lathe tools to try mill turning.



  11. #331

    Default Re: Just ordered the last melon (Torus)

    Quote Originally Posted by Titaniumboy View Post
    Thanks! That means a lot coming from someone who has done as much machining as you have. I am constantly amazed by what you achieve on your G0704.

    By coincidence, I had downloaded that TTS manual the night before you posted this. But somehow I had skipped over the part where they discussed grinding the collet.

    I don't have any decent carbide insert lathe tools as all that I have are cheapos from Banggood. But what the heck, let's give it a go. I centered up the lathe tool as best I could with a wiggler.

    Then I ran the calculations for RPM and feed. The results were surprising, at least to me. Using a Surface Speed of 100 and a diameter of 1.25" yielded an RPM of 320. This RPM and a 0.001" chipload per tooth per revolution gave a feed of 0.32" per minute. Wow, much slower than I would have guessed.


    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-novakon-collet-milling-1-jpg


    Here is the first pass. Looking halfway decent so far.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-novakon-collet-milling-2-jpg


    I took 0.015" on each pass. This was the last pass. These passes in the mill left some really nasty burrs, especially on the interior diameter. The collet now has the correct stickout so that the new Tormach TTS tool holders will work.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-novakon-collet-last-pass-jpg


    And here is the finished Novakon collet. I ended up doing the chamfers in my G0602 lathe. My Banggood insert lathe tools didn't have very much clearance for the ID chamfer, so in desperation I tried chamfering with my HSS lathe tool. To my surprise the HSS cut the Novakon collet like butter. Very hard butter.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-novakon-collet-finished-jpg


    I decided to take one of my no-name 3/4" collets and make a TTS collet adapter for my G0704 mill. This did not go nearly as well as the Novakon collet.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-name-collet-milling-1-jpg


    Evidently the no-name collet was harder than the Novakon collet. I ended up destroying two carbide inserts getting it to this point. And I still have some small ID burrs. Whereas I was able to cut chamfers on the Novakon collet with HSS, this no-name collet chewed up my HSS tools for lunch.

    Just ordered the last melon (Torus)-name-collet-milling-2-jpg



    Next step is to setup the TTS holders with some tools, measure them on the surface plate, and enter the tool offsets into UCCNC. And then I have to measure my coolant pump flow rate for CL_MotoTech.
    These projects are hard. Keep up the great work! Thanks for the compliments, I'm an amateur at best, I'm just too dumb to quit.

    I know nothing of lathe feeds and speeds, all of my lathe experience is from manual use. I've never used a CNC lathe (though I am close to starting a build on one). When I did the mill turn work, I did it with the pendant, sort of manual mode. I found using step settings on the pendant to work rather well, but I was emulating manual operation. Mostly visual I guess, because feel doesn't apply. I bought a set of Accusize insert lathe tools on Amazon. Not great tools really, but better than what I grind... Something like $80 does the trick. I've since given them to my buddy who actually owns a lathe. He raves about them. We might have low expectations, I genuinely don't know.

    The Novakon R8 collet is soft-ish. I've damaged it on tool change crashes. I don't want to talk about that, but the collet is still in my spindle and working pretty great. I have contemplated cutting down my 3/4" Grizzly collet, as well as ordering a Tormach one. Who knows?

    You are getting really close! Keep pushing! Also, update UCCNC. It's worth it. The layout is just better, IMO.



  12. #332
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    Default Re: Just ordered the last melon (Torus)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve303 View Post
    Nice job mill turning. I picked up a few ER32 TTS Tool Holders, collets and a few lathe tools to try mill turning.

    I'll be interested to see what you end up with. Didn't you construct a Hydraulic Booster at one point for your mill power drawbar?

    I was using the cnc mill in a very non-cnc way to mill these collet adapters. I used a wiggler to get the spindle centered over the end of the lathe tool, then moved the spindle a little to the right and then set X and Y to zero. I lowered the Z so that the lathe tool was just a whisker from touching the collet and set Z to zero. I then in MDI entered S320 and F0.3. Also entered G91 in MDI so that I was in Incremental mode. Turned the spindle to run CCW, and entered X-.35 in MDI. Then entered X.35 in MDI to put the lathe tool back in the original position.

    Each 0.35" move in X takes about a minute, so a minute to run the cutter into the spindle and another minute to run the cutter out of the spindle. Lower the Z by 0.015", lather, rinse, repeat.

    Kind of nerve wracking to have the lathe tool and vise to close to the mill spindle. I was also lucky to have not accidentally gone back into G90 Absolute mode at some point. I don't even want to think what an X-.35 MDI command would have done in absolute mode.



  13. #333
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    Default Re: Just ordered the last melon (Torus)

    Quote Originally Posted by CL_MotoTech
    These projects are hard. Keep up the great work! Thanks for the compliments, I'm an amateur at best, I'm just too dumb to quit
    I'm not very good at this stuff, but I make up for it by being really slow.

    By the way, how did you make my pictures so large? I always have to click on the pictures to make them large.



    The Novakon R8 collet is soft-ish. I've damaged it on tool change crashes. I don't want to talk about that, but the collet is still in my spindle and working pretty great. I have contemplated cutting down my 3/4" Grizzly collet, as well as ordering a Tormach one. Who knows?
    So how did a guy with a G0704 end up with a Novakon R8 collet? Was it less expensive than the genuine Tormach R8 collet? Bummer that Novakon has gone dark on us.

    I discovered that my Novakon R8 collet has a much shorter inside grip length than my no-name R8 collets. The Novakon collet only has 0.7" of inside grip length as compared to 1.2" of grip length on the generic R8 collet. Granted that my Novakon collet used to be about 0.2" longer at one point than it is now. It would be interesting to see how much grip length are on the genuine Tormach TTS collets.



    Also, update UCCNC. It's worth it. The layout is just better, IMO.
    This is the next planned upgrade after I get the tools measured and input into the Tools Offset screen. Remember the part where I'm really slow?


    I know nothing of lathe feeds and speeds, all of my lathe experience is from manual use. I've never used a CNC lathe (though I am close to starting a build on one). When I did the mill turn work, I did it with the pendant, sort of manual mode. I found using step settings on the pendant to work rather well, but I was emulating manual operation. Mostly visual I guess, because feel doesn't apply. I bought a set of Accusize insert lathe tools on Amazon. Not great tools really, but better than what I grind... Something like $80 does the trick. I've since given them to my buddy who actually owns a lathe. He raves about them. We might have low expectations, I genuinely don't know.
    CNC lathes seem to be a different beast than CNC mills, or at least that is what I learned at the community college where I took a bunch of CNC courses. For example, lathe tools don't just use the normal T01; rather you will see stuff like T0101 and T1020. And then there are U and W moves. Yikes.

    On my little collet project I tried to use the formulas I learned for mills and translate them to the lathe.

    For example, I usually first figure out RPM by using RPM = (4 * CS) / Diameter. So for my collet I guessed at a Cutting Speed of 100 and used the largest diameter of the collet at 1.25", which gave me a 320 RPM.

    Then I normally roll my RPM figure into the feed equation of F = (chipload per tooth per rev) * (# of teeth) * RPM. I guessed a chipload of 0.001" per tooth per rev, and my lathe tool only has one "tooth", so the equation gave me 0.32 in per min.



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