The other options are all more expensive, mostly comparing it to a used fadal. I have vast experience with them, and know it would be ideal for my purposes. However, added associated costs (tooling, power, etc) would really stretch (okay, triple) my budget. The novakon on the other hand would come In under budget, I'm just not entirely confident I'd be satisfied.Originally Posted by HimyKabibble
Definitely holding out for the pdb and tool changes though.
I think it depends on the program you are using what they refer to it as. I wouldn't want to screw your machine up by sending code that I don't know for sure if it will work. I use sprutcam. I've done some of that kind of removal, but I have to be really careful as I only have 1hp. I'm just curious what effect the Torus Pro's stronger spindle would have on removal rates.
Wade
Wade,
Power scales more or less linearly with MRR. So, if you have toolpaths that work well with 1HP, I'd expect the Pro to be able to do 1.5-2.0X that, unless rigidity becomes an issue, which I don't think it would with trochoidal toolpaths. If you've got something that works on your machine, I can try it here, and give you an idea "how much is left", and you can re-generate with more aggressive parameters, and we'll try again. Breaking the machine is not a concern - worst case, it'll just break a tool. If you don't break a tool once in a while, you're not working your machine hard enough! :-)
"Toroidal toopath" doesn't even make sense, being that a toroid is a donut/bagel shape. I'd be leery of any CAM that referred to "toroidal" toolpaths, because it's simply wrong. The correct term is "trochoidal", because that basically describes the path the tool much take to maintain constant engagement through a corner, and constant engagement is the very core of all HSM methods.
Regards,
Ray L.
^^^^ If you want to try some HSM paths I can program some tests for you in HSMWorks - it generates nice reliable code. Rob is also a very savvy HSMWorks user.
PM-45 CNC conversion built/run/sold.
OK by me, if it'll give Wade what he's looking for. I can run well over 200 IPM (I've tested it over 300, and it seems reliable, but never actually run it at that speed)
Regards,
Ray L.
machine might do 200ipm, but mach3 may puke doing trochoidal at that speed. will be interesting to see anyway. i cut at 100-150 on my old one, and ran into the g64 bug a few times. this was only in wood though so the stalls never caused damage.
It might be unconventional, but the most successful uses of trochoidal milling I've had don't involve particularly high feed rates. My normal strategy is relatively deep axial and radial cuts at slightly increased feed rates.
Ray isn't using Mach3, so the higher feeds would be a nice test of KFlop as well!
Do you guys have some video examples of what you are discussing? Sounds interesting.
Lee
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mach 3 can handle the high feedrate , provided it's setup right
Trochoidal paths are ok if running at full flute depth , otherwise I've never seen much benefit since 1/2 the tool path is air cutting . I've tried that toolpath numerous times while roughing steel fixtures on the haas with insert mills and or endmills , I've found that I can get the job done literally twice as fast by running lighter depths with very high feed rates and a high spindle speed . A light machine may find trochoidal to have some advantage , simply because a light spindle can't take a heavy cut for long , so if the tool is intermittently engaged into the work piece then there isn't enough time to completely bog down the motor .
I can see some possible advantage on steel jobs (depending upon the application) , I've seen guys use it for aluminum which I think is a bit pointless .
Just to give an example of how little torque is needed , 1/2 way thru the vid I bump the feed rate to 120 ipm (it was a torture test on my wood router ) , otherwise if I had something with a bit more torque then I'd be able to rip thru it at a quicker rate without torchoidal
A poet knows no boundary yet he is bound to the boundaries of ones own mind !! ........
I recorded another video. I'm pretty sure this is what wwendorf was asking for. I think this cut would have worked a lot better if I was using a "rougher/finisher" bit instead of this standard one. The chips get pretty long at this depth (15 mm) and get tangled up pretty easily. The buildup combined with the deep slot (AKA poor cooling) proved to be too much this time. Anyway, here it is if anyone cares...
Slots like those will virtually always clear easier with a traditional cutting method. Its really only in very difficult materials where trochoidal will have an advantage there - and it will still be slower. Aluminum easily carries the heat generated by the cut away from the cutting area, so slotting will work just fine-- just try and make the chips "fountain" clear, if you have the horsepower.
Thank you for the post Hirudin. That definitely is what I wanted to see. Very impressive. Did you say you use HSM works to do the cuts?
Tells me how well the Torus will do the cuts. I have a Tormach 770 now, which does everything I need, but I'm already looking for what my next machine will be. I might have gotten a Novakon, but I really needed an ATC and PDF and didn't have time to make one myself. When Novakon comes out with their PDB and ATC, I will be looking seriously at this combo for my next machine.
Wade
Thanks!
I'm using SolidCAM myself. This slot was made with their "2.5D iMachining" add-on. I basically selected the two sides of the slot and pushed the "Calculate" button. (There's more to it of course, but that's the gist of it.) Although there is a lot to like about SolidCAM I'm not sure if I'd recommend it. Then again I'm a newbie - the only other CAM package I've used extensively is RhinoCAM. I hate to go off topic too much though so I'll just leave it at that.
To me, this was the clearer comparison I found about the advantages of HSM toolpaths - not just trochoidal paths.. Trochoidal is a feature to be used in specific cases, but the real beauty of HSM (or constant engagement toolpaths..) is.. Well, the constant engagement. In this video, you can see the trochoidal is not any faster than traditional milling, but it prepares the way for the adapted spiral toolpath that is silly fast. Of course I'm sure the SolidCAM guys might have fudged the numbers a bit to make them look better, but still..
On the other hand, notice the spindle speeds for both options! HSM is really designed for machines that can go a lot faster than most of our benchtop machines. The HSM path allows the spindle to go much faster, but if you're already maxed out with a traditional toolpath, you probably won't see an advantage anyway!
They are fun to watch either way, so there's that
True HSM operates at spindle speeds FAR beyond what any of these small machines can do - on the order of 5-10X what traditional milling would use. It is a fundamentally different way of removing material, and involves many different technologies, not just one specific type of toolpath. One of the primary features though is some means of achieving constant engagement, even when cutting corners, etc., which greatly increase load on the tool and spindle in conventional machining. Trochoidal paths are but one means of achieving this, under certain conditions. iMachining is a particularly interesting product, as they have their own unique algorithms for generating, from what I've read, better constant-engagement toolpaths than any other tool currently available. Of course, it ain't cheap, and you can imagine what happens if you program these things wrong....
Regards,
Ray L.
iMachining has very nice marketing algorithms, and the same toolpath algorithms as virtually everyone else.
Don't believe the hype!
For years, the algorithm was on license from Julian Todd and Martin Dunschen of Freesteel-- who developed it with support from Cimco, who originally owned HSMWorks. I'm not sure where Martin wound up, but Julian is still on the HSMWorks team at Autodesk.
Surprisingly, when you make a programming error at those speeds, the resulting crash is usually less dramatic than you'd expect. The tool instantly snaps, unlike at lower speeds, where the tool will typically survive long enough to really do some harm
Today I finished the last "volume" mechanical parts for the ignition kits - just a few odds and ends left to do then making the wiring harnesses. Yesterday and today I made the smallest, and most complex, parts of the entire kit - 88 of them. They are the little aluminum pieces at the ends of the spark plug wire organizer in this photo:
These are a PITA to make, because they're small (~3/4" x 1" x 1-1/2"), irregularly shaped, and they are machined on all six sides.
Once I got that out of the way, I mounted my new LED flood-lights - same ones I have on my old machine. They provide MUCH better lighting than the halogen, with virtually no heat. I was able to run the wiring through the existing flex-conduit for the E-Stop and door switch. The wiring from there to the lights is just temporary at the moment. It will be into the head through grommetted holes right next to the lights.
Through this whole production, the Pro has performed absolutely flawlessly - not a single problem of any kind.
Regards,
Ray L.
I am looking at the Tormach originally, and now this Torus. The ATC on the Tormach would be a plus however.
The reason I like this machine so far, is I can get the lathe, which I will need. The price looks OK, and thank you for your thread, nice to see it in the real world running along.
I plan to mill SS and grade 5 Ti though. Small-ish parts, and no hurry to finish each one, and not sure if this is the right size machine.
The smaller I can use the better though, as I am short on space. So it is on my list of considerations, though I notice on their website no accuracy specs.
One thing that concerns me a little is a website dedicated to rubbishing this brand. I have read his story, and see his point, but continue to look for more experiences, both good and bad to come to a decision. Yours is obviously good.
The fact I am in Australia would mean I would not get support anyway, so realize I would need local help for any major issue.
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