Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

[kawazuki]

HI All,

Turning some steel today and for first time ever, the tooling dug into the material causing the spindle to stall / chuck stop. I got to the stop button pretty quick and it wasn't a 'violent' crash type stop but after trying to restart, the spindle refuses to turn.

I've checked the fuse in the front panel - its fine and the fan runs together with the digital display lights up, as if waiting for a command. If you hit the start button, it just sits for about 10 - 15 seconds, doing nothing, then display changes from '000' speed
to 'ERR' which flashes at about 1 / second! Same response if 'fwd' or 'rev' is selected.

I can't see any other fuses in the circuit diagram to check and i'm a bit stumped ! Any thoughts 'oh knowledgeable people' ?

I haven't torn into the guts of the electronics yet as it all seems to be buried in the rear - so major PITA to access !

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[CNCMAN172]

Try to spin the motor by hand when power is off. What kind of motor? Could have burned a brush when it stalled

[kawazuki]

Try to spin the motor by hand when power is off. What kind of motor? Could have burned a brush when it stalled

Motor and spindle turn freely by hand - its a 1Kw Brushless motor so brushes not an issue! Fairly sure its electronics related ie. the 'ERR' message - just wondering if anyone seen similar on other machines?

[CNCMAN172]

Since this is a brushless motor are you controlling it with a VFD? Is there any message on the VFD?

[dazp1976]

Motor and spindle turn freely by hand - its a 1Kw Brushless motor so brushes not an issue! Fairly sure its electronics related ie. the 'ERR' message - just wondering if anyone seen similar on other machines?

Not good.
Everything is on that ridiculously expensive control board.

I mean, my sieg mill overloaded, stopped, and lit the yellow light.
On trying to reset it, it had damaged/burned the on/off switch. BUT, this is on a manual potentiometer controlled MC which is same control as the SC3. The switch is built in the pot - Cheap fix.

Probe everything on your hi torques controls and see if you can find fault. Sounds like it is related to whet ever switches on/enables the motor because the rest sounds like it's working.

[mactec54]

Since this is a brushless motor are you controlling it with a VFD? Is there any message on the VFD?

No they don't use a VFD drive for these DC brushless motors

[kawazuki]

Doing some sideways thinking as i'm just converting my mill to use a Consew Brushless motor, would a 'Consew' controller work with this Lathe motor. I did some digging and found the electrical schematic for the lathe (attached below) and the Consew motor outputs are as follows :

#1 - 0v, #2 - W Hall, #3 - V Hall, #4 - U Hall, #5 - +5v, #6 - Inside Up, #7 - C Phase, #8 - B Phase, #9 - A Phase, #10 - Ground.

#6 is the one that is confusing me - possibly direction control but that is seemingly done in software via pushbuttons! The lathe does have a push button direction reverse so its not beyond the realms of possibility!

The Consew motor is labelled as a 'servo type', isn't a DC voltage type and uses line voltage - 240v in my case which seemingly matches the Lathe schematic. Even buying a whole complete Consew 1000w kit, motor, controller and fixing hardware, its price is half what the spare replacement lathe controller board would be - so its almost a no brainer but I really like how this lathe functions - decisions, decisions ! ! !

I've got to do some digging into the std. lathe electrics before condemning it to the bin as from pictures on-line, there is another on-board fuse which could be in the output stage - odd as its so difficult to get to though! Wish me luck as although called a 'benchtop' machine, that is a good 200kg of iron to shift around LOL!

[mactec54]

Doing some sideways thinking as i'm just converting my mill to use a Consew Brushless motor, would a 'Consew' controller work with this Lathe motor. I did some digging and found the electrical schematic for the lathe (attached below) and the Consew motor outputs are as follows :

#1 - 0v, #2 - W Hall, #3 - V Hall, #4 - U Hall, #5 - +5v, #6 - Inside Up, #7 - C Phase, #8 - B Phase, #9 - A Phase, #10 - Ground.

#6 is the one that is confusing me - possibly direction control but that is seemingly done in software via pushbuttons! The lathe does have a push button direction reverse so its not beyond the realms of possibility!

The Consew motor is labelled as a 'servo type', isn't a DC voltage type and uses line voltage - 240v in my case which seemingly matches the Lathe schematic. Even buying a whole complete Consew 1000w kit, motor, controller and fixing hardware, its price is half what the spare replacement lathe controller board would be - so its almost a no brainer but I really like how this lathe functions - decisions, decisions ! ! !

I've got to do some digging into the std. lathe electrics before condemning it to the bin as from pictures on-line, there is another on-board fuse which could be in the output stage - odd as its so difficult to get to though! Wish me luck as although called a 'benchtop' machine, that is a good 200kg of iron to shift around LOL!

You will be better to by a real AC Servo with an encoder Plus it's Drive, they are around the same price, these BLDC motors are known to have problems

[kawazuki]

You will be better to by a real AC Servo with an encoder Plus it's Drive, they are around the same price, these BLDC motors are known to have problems

Not really an answer to the question! Firstly its not a BLDC motor - its an AC 3 phase servo, just without encoder. And secondly, why would I want an encoder anyway - its not a cnc machining centre that requires positioning - its a simple hobby lathe!
Spending loads of money to fix what is likely to be a stupidly simple part is not on the books. The new motor shaft will likely the wrong size for the extg. pulley which isn't a problem - if I had a working lathe ! ! !
I just need someone who's more electrically savvy than me to determine if the electronics noted and attached will talk to each other ?

[dazp1976]

Not really an answer to the question! Firstly its not a BLDC motor - its an AC 3 phase servo, just without encoder. And secondly, why would I want an encoder anyway - its not a cnc machining centre that requires positioning - its a simple hobby lathe!
Spending loads of money to fix what is likely to be a stupidly simple part is not on the books. The new motor shaft will likely the wrong size for the extg. pulley which isn't a problem - if I had a working lathe ! ! !
I just need someone who's more electrically savvy than me to determine if the electronics noted and attached will talk to each other ?

Buying something like a lichuan servo motor and drive, will likely cost similar to a replacement sc4 control board.
As for the fitted encoder, you either do or don't bother with it. Nothing really need connect to the lathe, need a button for direction and a potentiometer or something for 0-10v speed control.
Just stick it in velocity mode.
It'll just throw an error if it jams or is over pushed. That's it I'm terms of encoder.

Servos are animals!!!!!.

[mactec54]

Not really an answer to the question! Firstly its not a BLDC motor - its an AC 3 phase servo, just without encoder. And secondly, why would I want an encoder anyway - its not a cnc machining centre that requires positioning - its a simple hobby lathe!
Spending loads of money to fix what is likely to be a stupidly simple part is not on the books. The new motor shaft will likely the wrong size for the extg. pulley which isn't a problem - if I had a working lathe ! ! !
I just need someone who's more electrically savvy than me to determine if the electronics noted and attached will talk to each other ?

Typically, a BLDC motor uses Hall sensers which is what the motor you posted is using.

You can buy whatever you want, and you will have the same problem, it's a 6amp motor and a pile of junk for a lathe, an AC Servo Motor requires an Encoder to operate correctly, the AC servo and drive would cost you around the same amount of money and have much more available power to drive your spindle

[dazp1976]

Typically, a BLDC motor uses Hall sensers which is what the motor you posted is using.

You can buy whatever you want, and you will have the same problem, it's a 6amp motor and a pile of junk for a lathe, an AC Servo Motor requires an Encoder to operate correctly, the AC servo and drive would cost you around the same amount of money and have much more available power to drive your spindle

Indeed.
Replace it with AC servo driver and motor package or replace the junk sieg board for another junk one.
Cost difference between the 2 is shockingly negligible.

[kawazuki]

Indeed.
Replace it with AC servo driver and motor package or replace the junk sieg board for another junk one.
Cost difference between the 2 is shockingly negligible.

Ok, after spending 4 hrs lifting, shifting, humping and taking the electronics apart, checking, cleaning and re-seating IC's i've drawn a blank! In fact its worse as I touched something and the motor gave a jolt whilst chuck guard was locking the chuck, sufficient to snap the drive belt! and the Digi display has also died, so I throw in the towel - Please advise of a 1 - 1.5kw AC servo driver and motor package that will work together, that is obtainable in the UK and costs around about £350.00 - that is replacement cost of ALL the electronics and I'll order it now!

[dazp1976]

Ok, after spending 4 hrs lifting, shifting, humping and taking the electronics apart, checking, cleaning and re-seating IC's i've drawn a blank! In fact its worse as I touched something and the motor gave a jolt whilst chuck guard was locking the chuck, sufficient to snap the drive belt! and the Digi display has also died, so I throw in the towel - Please advise of a 1 - 1.5kw AC servo driver and motor package that will work together, that is obtainable in the UK and costs around about £350.00 - that is replacement cost of ALL the electronics and I'll order it now!

Physically in the UK at that price.... Good luck.
I bought a lichuan 1.8kw from Aliexpress (one of the Lichuan factory store) in Dec 2020. For the Spindle on my mill, haven't been able to get owt done to machine but I fully bench tested to servo and it's pretty smart bit of kit.
Documentation is lacking a bit though
You do get taxed as it comes DHL.

Best people rated ones are the Delta models which I do plan on putting on the axis at some point.

I'll put the link up when I can.

You might get lucky and find a used on ebay.

1 option:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32521158825.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.779b505 cVFIDGQ&algo_pvid=f99e6cc1-99e1-4e77-86c5-b999fedac248&algo_exp_id=f99e6cc1-99e1-4e77-86c5-b999fedac248-11&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2257489794921%22%7 D&pdp_npi=1%40dis%7CGBP%7C%7C258.08%7C%7C%7C%7C%7C %402100bdd016513400706182974e99c3%7C57489794921%7C sea

I have the A4 drive but the B2 is cheaper and wiring diagram may be easier to follow.

[kawazuki]

Ok guys I'm back! I ordered this - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384235951147 - but didn't pay that much for it, I got it for a little more than my budget. It arrived today and i'm pleasantly surprised and also narked in equal measure!
The quality is as expected and the motor weighs a ton! - that's the bonus bit, I ordered a 1.0kw, 3000rpm, 4.0Nm motor and drive and got a 1.2kw, 3000rpm, 4.0Nm package delivered. The extra power is handy and
the torque is about 0.8Nm more than the next closest available but here's the kicker - it came with no manual and from what I can find on line - its too bloody complicated ! ! !

I've worked out the basic wiring and the display illuminates and all I want it to do is turn one way with variable speed, stop, and turn the other way with variable speed ! That's ALL I WANT - but it doesn't appear to cater for
idiots that want simple! The manual i've found online is written in Chinese and translated into Chinglish with the expectation that the potential user knows exactly what they are doing! I will tackle the seller tomorrow regarding
the missing manual but . . . . . . . Guy's - I followed your advice, got the recommended solution but at present I can't use it without some help ! I've got to adapt the motor mounting plate / block to the 'smaller' frame motor &
my new pulleys are on a slow boat from China so there's a couple of weeks delay - just need to see it work!

[CNCMAN172]

Looks like a nice servo and matching driver. The first step is to download the driver manual for the exact driver you purchased. In that manual will be the wiring instructions. The RST terminals at the top left of the drive are for incoming AC power. Most users do not have 3 phase power so you will need to wire 220V to two of those three terminals, the manual will tell you which two. The terminals at the bottom left, U,V,W, PE is where the motor gets wired up, these are the three phases of the AC servo motor along with the Ground. The terminal that looks like a 25-pin D connector is for the control wires, look under start up in the manual and it will explain which wires must be hooked up as a minimum. The smaller 15 pin connector or whatever size just below the control connector is for the encoder on the back of the servo. These drives have many parameters that need to be programmed depending on how you want to use the servo motor. These can all be programmed either via a software package or using the keys on the front panel display. It might seem overwhelming but spend the night reading the manual and it will start to make sense. Don't jump the gun and start hooking up wires and applying power before you read the manual.

Russ

[dazp1976]

Ok guys I'm back! I ordered this - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384235951147 - but didn't pay that much for it, I got it for a little more than my budget. It arrived today and i'm pleasantly surprised and also narked in equal measure!
The quality is as expected and the motor weighs a ton! - that's the bonus bit, I ordered a 1.0kw, 3000rpm, 4.0Nm motor and drive and got a 1.2kw, 3000rpm, 4.0Nm package delivered. The extra power is handy and
the torque is about 0.8Nm more than the next closest available but here's the kicker - it came with no manual and from what I can find on line - its too bloody complicated ! ! !

I've worked out the basic wiring and the display illuminates and all I want it to do is turn one way with variable speed, stop, and turn the other way with variable speed ! That's ALL I WANT - but it doesn't appear to cater for
idiots that want simple! The manual i've found online is written in Chinese and translated into Chinglish with the expectation that the potential user knows exactly what they are doing! I will tackle the seller tomorrow regarding
the missing manual but . . . . . . . Guy's - I followed your advice, got the recommended solution but at present I can't use it without some help ! I've got to adapt the motor mounting plate / block to the 'smaller' frame motor &
my new pulleys are on a slow boat from China so there's a couple of weeks delay - just need to see it work!

Show us:
Exact Image of driver and the model nameplate on it.
Someone will download its manual and draw you the wiring basics.


Edit:
Is this the one?.
https://www.fasttobuy.com/12kw-220v-electric-servo-motor-cnc-control-high-speed-4nm-3000rpm-nema-42-ac-servo-drive-motor-for-cnc-industrial_p35891.html
There's a download section down the page.

[CNCMAN172]

This is a Chinese unit so the documentation leaves a lot to be desired. The basic wiring is very easy, as I shared before CN1 is a computer interface that allows you to program the driver if you can find their software. CN2 is the control port which is where you will send Step and Direction signals, as well as the enable signal. For the looks of this driver it takes differential signals for noise immunity. CN3 is for the encoder. If you look at the manual which is the basic manual for these type drives you will see all the parameters in the driver, and you can program these drivers using the front panel of the driver, they explain how to press the buttons and the order. Look up the section on Commissioning Operation, that will allow you to test the motor and driver and spin the motor clockwise and counter clockwise. This is always a good idea before you plan your cables for the CN2 control interface.

https://www.fasttobuy.com//download/...manualv6.3.pdf

Russ

[kawazuki]

Show us:
Exact Image of driver and the model nameplate on it.
Someone will download its manual and draw you the wiring basics. Basics I've got covered - the Driver powers on - its how to get it working that's doing my head in!

Edit:
Is this the one?. Refer to Russ's download link - it isn't the exact one, but seems to cover a 'family of Drivers, varying by output not control

https://www.fasttobuy.com/12kw-220v-...al_p35891.html
There's a download section down the page.

This is a Chinese unit so the documentation leaves a lot to be desired. Very much so The basic wiring is very easy, as I shared before.
CN1 is a computer interface that allows you to program the driver if you can find their software.
CN2 is the control port which is where you will send Step and Direction signals, as well as the enable signal. Sounds like you'd need some sort of computer control input / output - like Mach3 CNC?
For the looks of this driver it takes differential signals for noise immunity.
CN3 is for the encoder.

If you look at the manual which is the basic manual for these type drives you will see all the parameters in the driver, and you can program these drivers using the front panel of the driver, they explain how to
press the buttons and the order. Look up the section on Commissioning Operation, that will allow you to test the motor and driver and spin the motor clockwise and counter clockwise.
This is always a good idea before you plan your cables for the CN2 control interface. Again do I need this 'interface' - I just need adjustable speed clock and anti-clockwise

https://www.fasttobuy.com//download/...manualv6.3.pdf

Russ

Russ - thanks for the link. I've scrolled through and its similar to another one I obtained elsewhere - same driver but combined with a 750w motor. I've extracted a portion of the manual that I 'think' does
what I need but doesn't say that specifically - see below (with the Chinese script removed!)

8.2 Push-button speed control

(1) servo enable (SON) OFF. The internal enable (Pn003=0) or external wiring control enables the
OFF to be in a state. It is recommended that the CN2 control interface do not receive any control
lines.

(2) switch on the circuit power, the driver of the 5 digital tube display light, and if there
is an alarm, the decimal point has been flashing, and display alarm code AL-xx. Please check the
connection.

(3) to confirm that no alarms and any exceptions have been entered into the auxiliary mode Fn002
subdirectory JOG_1 (specific operations and parameter settings, see Chapter third, section 3.4.4,
Fn002, trial operation). After entering the lower directory of JOG_1, the display is shown as
0 (unit: r/min), and the motor has been energized. Through the key or key, the input motor will
be running at speed, the motor will run at this speed. To exit this operation, you need to perform
JOG_2 operations.

I'm having difficulty getting my head round the directory and sub-directory structure and how you navigate it - that is where my main problem lies I think?

[CNCMAN172]

Kawazuki,
Don't let the directories and sub-directories confuse you. This is how you navigate the menus. Think of this as chapters in a book and then paragraphs in the given chapter. For example, you go into signal input chapter, then in that chapter you have several choices you can make for example Step/Direction inputs, CW/CCW, or 90-degree quadrature inputs. Once you play with the interface a few times it will become obvious how this works.

In your situation you might want to wire this driver up for Analog input. Pin 25 in Vref and Pin 13 is Analog ground. This input will take voltages from -10V to +10V. You can actually set this up on a potentiometer and dial the speed you want by turning the pot. To use the analog inputs as your source you need to refer to the Speed-Torque wiring section of the manual.

As you pointed out there is a family of drivers some called "Standard" and others called "Advanced" in that same manual that I found. If you have a 25-pin control interface connector I believe it is the standard driver, and if has something like 38 pins it is the advanced version. First we need to determine exactly what you have so post a picture of the driver.

If you have the standard driver these are the pins of interest.

Pin-9 +12 to +24V input
Pin-6 Servo enable
Pin-10 Common other side of power supply

Pin-2 PV this is the open collector voltage if you drive with Step/Direction
Pin-3 PP+ differential input for Step
Pin-14 PP- differential input for Step
Pin-4 PD+ differential input for Direction
Pin-5 PD- differential input for Direction

Pin-25 Vref analog input +10V to -10V
Pin-13 Analog Ground

If you decide to run this with analog input you can setup a switch that enables the motor, and pot will control the speed. Another switch can be used to reverse the motor.

Let me know what you would like to do and I might be able to help you.

Russ