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Thread: Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

    Thanks for the input Russ - having it explained in English with correct syntax helps a lot. Pics of the driver and motor below as requested.

    I believe from your description its the 'standard' version.

    I had some input from the seller apologising for no included manual but gave me a steer on getting the thing actually rotating - which it does,
    but its a 'process' and speed increments by 1rpm steps so zero - 3000rpm is PAINFULLY slow LOL! And reverse is just back to zero and keep
    going to minus numbers ! And quick stops - well yet to be discovered!

    Given your explanation I should understand but I just see words I'm more of a graphical understanding type ie. back of an envelope type sketch i'll understand
    and can work from. I didn't understand the Pin 2 through Pin 5 above as my electrical logic goes as far as + is positive / live and - is ground / earth !

    Ian

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.-img_0674-jpg   Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.-img_0675-jpg   Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.-img_0677-jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by kawazuki View Post
    Thanks for the input Russ - having it explained in English with correct syntax helps a lot. Pics of the driver and motor below as requested.

    I believe from your description its the 'standard' version.

    I had some input from the seller apologising for no included manual but gave me a steer on getting the thing actually rotating - which it does,
    but its a 'process' and speed increments by 1rpm steps so zero - 3000rpm is PAINFULLY slow LOL! And reverse is just back to zero and keep
    going to minus numbers ! And quick stops - well yet to be discovered!

    Given your explanation I should understand but I just see words I'm more of a graphical understanding type ie. back of an envelope type sketch i'll understand
    and can work from. I didn't understand the Pin 2 through Pin 5 above as my electrical logic goes as far as + is positive / live and - is ground / earth !

    Ian
    Looks like the standard version db25 control cable type.

    I would use a potentiometer on analog voltage for now.
    12v+ piwer to pot 10v power input terminal.
    Wiper terminal then goes to Vref (0-10v).
    Gnd terminal then goes to Agnd.

    That should give you speed control.

    There should be an input (sig-in#) on the drive for a direction switch. On my servo it's a simple on= cw off=ccw.


    PN002 set as 1 speed mode.
    PN003 set as 1 auto enable.
    Possibly may jog at a better rate now.

    Now not totally clued on PN007. Looks like this is something to do with assigning CW/CCW to one of the sigin inputs (for that fwd/rev switch I mentioned.
    There may be another peramiter needs changing along with it (or not).

    I've no time to read it through.

    Last edited by dazp1976; 05-05-2022 at 11:27 AM.


  3. #23
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    Default Re: Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

    Kawazuki,
    The Mode switch allows you to move into different directories. DN is monitor displays, PN is Parameter numbers, FN is Functions

    It is very important you have PN001 set to match your exact motor. The manual I have does not list your motor exactly. The closest one is 80ST-M04025, which is slightly smaller than yours which is 80ST-MO4030, they are both 220V and the selection will be close. In the manual I downloaded it shows PN001 = 6, but they might ship the Driver with it set to your motor. I would check that parameter before I played very much.

    Perhaps your manual will show the correct motor for your drive. If so use that manual for setting up the drive.

    What your are doing is using the built in JOG commands to move the motor. If you setup this driver for speed control using an analog input a potentiometer can be used to control the speed over its entire range. The analog range is +10V to -10V. Positive moves in one direction and negative values move in the opposite direction.

    If your manual seems to match the driver exactly then search it for Speed Control

    In the manual I have if you look in Chapter 9.2 of the manual on page 192 it shows you the parameters you will need to play with to support external analog speed control.

    PN001 must be set to the correct Motor Code
    PN002 is set to the preferred control mode, in the manual I have Speed control is "1"
    PN003 is the servo enable selection. You can set it for enabled all the time or to use an enable switch coming in on Pin-6. The switch would go from Pin-6 to Pin-10 common. They also have an option to reverse the motor with a switch. If you used that you could use a analog supply voltage of 0 to 10V and just switch the reverse switch to go the opposite direction. The pot would control your speed and the switch would allow you to change directions much like most standard lathes.

    Russ



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    Default Re: Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

    Kawazuki,
    In the attached video you will see someone who sets up this type driver for step and direction control and then later in the video he sets it up for analog control, which is what you need to do for the lathe. You can test analog control after you set parameters by hooking up a simple AA battery across Aref and Agnd pins and if you reverse the battery the motor will turn the opposite direction.




    Russ



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    Default Re: Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

    Thanks Russ - I found that video also and apart from the irritating music, it posed more questions than it answered for me! Yes, I see some wires plugged into the parallel port which are linked to what? - that isn't shown ! ! !
    I assume a pot and maybe a power supply but the video is quiet in this regard. I'm fairly sure i've got a 10v DC mains adapter around here somewhere and i've just chopped up an old parallel port printer cable, so i'll draw
    out a schematic then trace wire colours to pins and see what mess I can make of it all!

    I mounted the motor today - what a beast, a little longer than the BLDC it replaced and maybe double the weight ! Just have to wait for new pullies and drive belt to arrive (slow boat from China!) and I'll report back!



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    Default Re: Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

    In the video the guy was test driving it two different ways. The first way was with Step and Direction signals being generated by Mach3. The second way was using speed control with just an analog voltage being applied to Vref and Agnd. This is what I tried to say earlier, you can even use a simple AA battery and just two jumper leads and connect between those pins, Vref-Pin25 and Agnd-Pin13 and the motor will spin one way or the other. With a 1.5 volt battery it will spin at about 15% of top speed. In the video if you stop it just as he is talking about speed control he prints on screen the few parameters he had to change to put the drive in speed control. This very easy to do and would not take you very long.

    Yes, that motor looks like a beast and I will sure it will work great. Just a pot and a couple switches and it will make a nice addition to a lathe.

    Russ



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    Default Re: Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

    I've just drawing up a circuit diagram to try and help me understand / achieve the basic speed control I would like. I think its right but I can't get my head around the neg 10v reverse / pos. 10v Forward
    and how this is achieved. Parallel port pins 13 and 25 are analogue common and VREF -10 / 0 / +10v respectively. Does my diagram achieve this as my head says it doesn't and I'm loathe
    to start applying 'random' voltages to pins not 'designed for them' HELP ! ! !
    Or have I got this completely wrong and reversing is achieved via a different pin ? CONFUSED ! ! !

    Yes I know i've 3 different switches on the mains 240v side - I'm just utilising the existing switches and added one with a neon / LED indicator. Just noticed I've missed the 10A fuse in the Live supply!

    Please excuse the drawing - i'm an Architect so my normal designs need a different skill set LOL!

    Attached Files Attached Files


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    Quote Originally Posted by kawazuki View Post
    I've just drawing up a circuit diagram to try and help me understand / achieve the basic speed control I would like. I think its right but I can't get my head around the neg 10v reverse / pos. 10v Forward
    and how this is achieved. Parallel port pins 13 and 25 are analogue common and VREF -10 / 0 / +10v respectively. Does my diagram achieve this as my head says it doesn't and I'm loathe
    to start applying 'random' voltages to pins not 'designed for them' HELP ! ! !
    Or have I got this completely wrong and reversing is achieved via a different pin ? CONFUSED ! ! !

    Yes I know i've 3 different switches on the mains 240v side - I'm just utilising the existing switches and added one with a neon / LED indicator. Just noticed I've missed the 10A fuse in the Live supply!

    Please excuse the drawing - i'm an Architect so my normal designs need a different skill set LOL!

    Look at the "sigin" inputs.
    Normally one of them can be programmed for CW/CCW.
    THAT is your direction change on=cw off=ccw.

    Then it's just the analog +10v to Vref and analog 0v to agnd.
    Then do the rest of the I/O as needed.

    This is the manual for my one:
    https://lichuanmotor.com/web/userfiles/download/a4servodrivermanual-28fullversion-29.pdf

    I have set DI5 input as SPD_DIR which is cw/ccw control using peramiter PA085 while servo is set in speed mode.
    Now DI5 is connected to a relay that is controlled by my breakout board and that is my direction change using on/off.
    Then 0-10v controls rpm in either direction. There is no negative -10v used.

    That's the principle. You just need to work out the chinglish jargon which is slightly more difficult.


    I'm relatively new to servos too.
    I read pdf manuals for at least 6 different drives.
    They all have some simularities when it comes to wiring and working principles. It's all about the way it's all differently described.

    Last edited by dazp1976; 05-09-2022 at 03:07 PM.


  9. #29
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    Default Re: Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

    Quote Originally Posted by kawazuki View Post
    I've just drawing up a circuit diagram to try and help me understand / achieve the basic speed control I would like. I think its right but I can't get my head around the neg 10v reverse / pos. 10v Forward
    and how this is achieved. Parallel port pins 13 and 25 are analogue common and VREF -10 / 0 / +10v respectively. Does my diagram achieve this as my head says it doesn't and I'm loathe
    to start applying 'random' voltages to pins not 'designed for them' HELP ! ! !
    Or have I got this completely wrong and reversing is achieved via a different pin ? CONFUSED ! ! !

    Yes I know i've 3 different switches on the mains 240v side - I'm just utilising the existing switches and added one with a neon / LED indicator. Just noticed I've missed the 10A fuse in the Live supply!

    Please excuse the drawing - i'm an Architect so my normal designs need a different skill set LOL!
    The =10v+ / -10V you won't have unless you look for a power supply the has a -10v and a +10v output this will give you the FWD and Reverse you can switch between the two voltages, there are other ways to do it as well, but this is the simplest to get working, you can do this by using a wire wound Potentiometer

    You can also do direction change by using Step/Dir control or CW/CCW control

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

    The way you drew this up should work fine. You can use a single supply say 12V or 10V and your VFD has an option for a reverse switch. So you wire up the reverse switch and then provide 0 to 10V source, should work. Like I said using the switch wired as cross over should also work with no issue.



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    Default Re: Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

    Quote Originally Posted by CNCMAN172 View Post
    The way you drew this up should work fine. You can use a single supply say 12V or 10V and your VFD has an option for a reverse switch. So you wire up the reverse switch and then provide 0 to 10V source, should work. Like I said using the switch wired as cross over should also work with no issue.
    But according to mactec54 below - it won't work! Oh and heads-up, it isn't a VFD (i'm beginning to think an old tech motor & VFD would have been a better idea!) So you can see my confusion!

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    The =10v+ / -10V you won't have unless you look for a power supply the has a -10v and a +10v output this will give you the FWD and Reverse you can switch between the two voltages, there are other ways to do it as well, but this is the simplest to get working, you can do this by using a wire wound Potentiometer
    Well my power supply doesn't do neg. volts so that isn't going to work - in fact the whole concept of neg. volts confuses me. I guess a lab grade power supply would do - / + volts and I haven't one of those either!

    You can also do direction change by using Step/Dir control or CW/CCW control
    This implies some sort of PC / Computer control - again not in the realms of simple control that I require.
    Quote Originally Posted by dazp1976 View Post
    Look at the "sigin" inputs.
    Normally one of them can be programmed for CW/CCW.
    THAT is your direction change on=cw off=ccw. What does 'sigin' mean? Obviously 'signal input' But what signal, from where, and inputs what from where?

    Then it's just the analog +10v to Vref and analog 0v to agnd. This bit I understand Then do the rest of the I/O as needed. This I do not - you could be talking French!

    This is the manual for my one:
    https://lichuanmotor.com/web/userfiles/download/a4servodrivermanual-28fullversion-29.pdf

    I have set DI5 input as SPD_DIR which is cw/ccw control using parameter PA085 while servo is set in speed mode.
    Now DI5 is connected to a relay that is controlled by my breakout board and that is my direction change using on/off.
    Then 0-10v controls rpm in either direction. There is no negative -10v used.
    Sorry, but all the above implies PC / Computer control - which I don't have!

    That's the principle. You just need to work out the chinglish jargon which is slightly more difficult.

    I'm relatively new to servos too. I read pdf manuals for at least 6 different drives. They all have some similarities when it comes to wiring and working principles. It's all about the way it's all differently described.
    I've 'read' / looked through 3 or 4 different manuals - there isn't even a std. wiring for pins of the CN2 parallel port! Its information overload due to the fact if you don't understand the information presented
    you'll have no hope of implementing any of it! These are massively complicated devices and I just need maybe 1% of that capability but even that is beyond my grasp.

    Hi Guys - I've added comments to each of your answers in RED and in one reply to keep it all together. I'm not trying to be thick (I guess it comes naturally when understanding electronics!)
    but I really need more explanation, as what you may find easy, is total 'magical dark arts' to me ! I may just have to rely on the 'simple JOG control - shame its not more intuitive!



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    Quote Originally Posted by kawazuki View Post
    Hi Guys - I've added comments to each of your answers in RED and in one reply to keep it all together. I'm not trying to be thick (I guess it comes naturally when understanding electronics!)
    but I really need more explanation, as what you may find easy, is total 'magical dark arts' to me ! I may just have to rely on the 'simple JOG control - shame its not more intuitive!

    So.
    'sigin' is signal input.
    See the wire coming from 'sigin#'?. Follow it.
    It goes across and gets 'broke'. That is a switch or relay.
    Continue following it and it connects back into powersupply = sign. Then +12v goes into the top completing the circuit.

    The switches are on a 'sinking to ground' line.

    So, if you do this..... a single wire from psu gnd > into a switch/relay > out of switch > into an input.
    Now you can simply turn that one input on/off.

    The circuit 9 (+12v) to supply+ > supply- > 'break' (switch) > 10 (COM) Will be to turn the control power on.

    The switch can be either pc or manual controlled.
    Can't seem to upload yet but I'll draw something out later.

    Last edited by dazp1976; 05-10-2022 at 06:15 AM.


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    Default Re: Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

    You are letting this become too confusing. Let's make it really simple.

    Step 1. You need to set a few parameters in the servo driver to set it up for analog speed control.

    PN001 = Motor Code This needs to be set according to your manual for your exact motor, using the manual I found online the closest motor just a little smaller would set this to 6, but check your manual.

    PN002 =1 Control Mode This needs to be set to 1 for speed control.

    PN158 = 300 Analog Speed Gain, this should be the default setting but it will make the motor turn 3000 RPM when you have 10V analog input

    PN168 = 0 Speed Command Source This should be the default setting as well.

    Now you have the parameters set.

    Now we have very little wiring to add to the Servo Driver.

    CN2 the 25-pin connector is the control port.

    You need to wire a 12V power supply between pin-9 and pin-10

    Pin-9 is the positive 12 volt connection
    Pin-10 is the common from the 12 volt supply

    Now we need to make an enable switch that allows the motor to spin. This will be a simple toggle switch
    Wire the switch between Pin-6 and Pin-10

    Pin-6 is one side of enable switch
    Pin-10 is the common and the other side of the switch connects there.

    The final thing you need to do for testing is to wire two long wires to the following pins.

    Pin-25 is Vref, this is the analog voltage input pin
    Pin-13 is Agnd, this is the analog ground or common pin.

    Now if you have accomplished this you are ready to see if you can control the motor in both directions.

    Get yourself a simple AA, C, or D battery that is 1.5 volts. You will connect each of the analog wires to each side of the battery just with your hand.

    Now turn on the enable switch and the motor should spin. Now reverse the wires on the battery and the motor should spin in the opposite direction.

    With a 1.5 volt battery the motor will spin about 15% of the full speed of the motor.

    If this works you will be ready to setup a voltage supply for +- 10V.

    Start with baby steps and make sure all of this works first.

    Russ



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    Default Re: Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

    Quote Originally Posted by kawazuki View Post
    Hi Guys - I've added comments to each of your answers in RED and in one reply to keep it all together. I'm not trying to be thick (I guess it comes naturally when understanding electronics!)
    but I really need more explanation, as what you may find easy, is total 'magical dark arts' to me ! I may just have to rely on the 'simple JOG control - shame its not more intuitive!
    For manual control (1) choice to have FWD and Reverse is to use a Power supply with a + /- 10v /12v output, with just the pot, or a straight 10v / 12v with the Pot and a 3-position switch to change the direction using CW /CCW for manual control

    There are many choices to use a regular power supplies that do this, I could not find a 10v power supply, you can adjust the output voltage to lower the 12v if the max is 10v

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.-power-supply-jpg  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

    Hi Guys - Thanks for the info and apologies for lack of response but i've been waiting on new pulleys and timing belt to arrive, which they did yesterday. So brief update - I used the info above and cobbled together a load of wires and croc. clips together with a 20v PSU and a 10v wall wart and I managed to get something approaching control but not full speed even though the setting said it should be 3000 rpm. So did a bit of chinglish, interpretive reading and adjusted the source AC power as we are 240v in the UK which seemed to help, then upped the top speed to 4500rpm and this got me back to about the 3000rpm of the specs. When the motor pulley arrived it got installed - now ratio was 22-42 so chuck / spindle speed should top out at around 1650 odd rpm.
    I've utilised a little project box to house the 20v PSU and a new 10v adjustable buck converter that goes through the analogue control and also powers a digital LED tacho that reads spindle speed via magnet and Hall device - that was a trial, wired it up 3 times but it wouldn't function - it turns out the Hall device is particular about the magnet polarity, once that changed i've got rpm read out. I've just got to 'glue' the magnet to the spindle as although its a strong 'lil devil, i'm fairly sure it won't stick around at vmax with vibration added!

    Its been a journey but the lathe is now back in service and I'm quite proud of the changes i've made and its got a bit more power behind it, although its capabilities will probably still outstretch mine by a long way.



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Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.

Stalled my Sieg SC4, now motor / spindle doesn't spin.