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  1. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Most people are not using Mach3 with a PP these days, the servo loop is closed in the servo drive the control can be anything you want it to be in most cases Mach3 is doing very little when you use a external CPU that sends the commands to the Servo Drive, Mach3 today does very little when connected to an external CPU

    The whole idea of having electronic gearing is so the supply CPU does not have to be maxed out to match any encoder resolution

    For those that don't know a SmoothStepper, there default I is 256 KHz this is more than enough to run any servo motor at max RPM this also depends on the voltage of the Servo Drive as to the max RPM

    The lowest electronic gear setting for a Dmm servo drive is 500 Gear number this equals to 2000 Steps/Per Rev using this setting the motor has no trouble reaching it's max RPM for any of there 120v/240v Servo Drives motor combinations

    The UC100 will run this setup at max RPM also with this 16Bit encoder resolution
    Using a parrallel port has nothing to do with it. The issue in question remains the same. In your case of 2000 steps per rev, the smallest move mach3 can command to the servo is 0.18 degrees, whether your using a PP, uc100, ess, or whatever. Mach3 is still communicating with that device using FULL step pulses, one step at a time. In your example, it's gonna send 2000 step pulses for each rev. It doesn't chop them up into something smaller. For the type of accuracy I would want on my 4th, that's far too low of a resolution, even if I have 4 to 1 mechanical gearing, that's still .045 degrees per step which is too much, that would be about a thou and a half step on the circumference of a 4 inch gear.



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    Default Re: Need help brainstorming a solution for this mill turn spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by QuinnSjoblom View Post
    Using a parrallel port has nothing to do with it. The issue in question remains the same. In your case of 2000 steps per rev, the smallest move mach3 can command to the servo is 0.18 degrees, whether your using a PP, uc100, ess, or whatever. Mach3 is still communicating with that device using FULL step pulses, one step at a time. In your example, it's gonna send 2000 step pulses for each rev. It doesn't chop them up into something smaller. For the type of accuracy I would want on my 4th, that's far too low of a resolution, even if I have 4 to 1 mechanical gearing, that's still .045 degrees per step which is too much, that would be about a thou and a half step on the circumference of a 4 inch gear.
    So then why are you fixated with Mach3 if it is not going to do what you want

    I guess you are never going to build this, and are just wasting everyone's time, as there is nothing out there that you could buy or put together that is going to satisfy your needs, you seem to have all the answers but can't figure it out how to do it

    There is nothing new about a 4th axes, manufacturers have been doing this for years and with even more accuracy than what you are trying to do, my 20Bit 4th Axes are what dreams are made of, 1,048,576 PPR or another one I have at 23Bit 8,388,608 PPR

    You want a better resolution without spending much money, then start with a harmonic drive than you can add a stepper motor and you would be done just as may hobby users do

    As I said you won't even be able to build the mechanical part accurate enough to do what you want and you are talking about step/per what about +/-10v or digital using fiber optics

    Mactec54


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    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    So then why are you fixated with Mach3 if it is not going to do what you want

    I guess you are never going to build this, and are just wasting everyone's time, as there is nothing out there that you could buy or put together that is going to satisfy your needs, you seem to have all the answers but can't figure it out how to do it

    There is nothing new about a 4th axes, manufacturers have been doing this for years and with even more accuracy than what you are trying to do, my 20Bit 4th Axes are what dreams are made of, 1,048,576 PPR or another one I have at 23Bit 8,388,608 PPR

    You want a better resolution without spending much money, then start with a harmonic drive than you can add a stepper motor and you would be done just as may hobby users do

    As I said you won't even be able to build the mechanical part accurate enough to do what you want and you are talking about step/per what about +/-10v or digital using fiber optics
    Not sure where that came from. When did I say mach3 was not going to do what i want? This back and forth debate about resolution started when someone else and myself stated that resolution is lost when electric gearing is increased and you replied with "you dont lose anything", which is incorrect. Resolution is lost proportionally to the increase in electronic gearing. Has nothing to do with a shortcoming of mach3, it's the same with any control software communicating with step/dir. It simply means a balance needs to be chosen between speed and resolution along with other possibilities like multiple gear ratios. This whole time ive just been trying to understand what I'm missing since you insist resolution isn't lost with increase in electrical gearing, but I don't think I'm the one missing something.

    Building a 4th axis with high resolution is not the problem. If that's what I was trying to do, I would give it 1 to 1 electronic gearing and have 5 times the resolution i could ever need and mach3 would have no problem doing it. The challenge is building a mill turn spindle which is what this thread is about. Finding a balance of accuracy, holding torque, and max rpm. The options for achieving this were being discussed until it went off the rails starting with your comment of "you don't lose anything". Not sure what the attack is about. Just trying to get the facts straight. You started off saying you don't lose resolution by increasing electronic gearing and now your switching to it doesn't matter since you cant build something that accurate anyway.



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    Default Re: Need help brainstorming a solution for this mill turn spindle

    Lol, mactec's interpersonal skills shine upon us once again. QuinnSjoblom: I don't think he even means it as a personal attack, forget it and move on. There's nothing to be gained by continuing down that dead end.

    Still, whilst we're on the Mach3 hatewagon... Will it even support a mill/turn? Looking at the config section, it doesn't look like it supports multiple independent spindles. Or have I missed something? So from what I can see the best you could hope for is you'd need to switch back and forth between C and A spindles using its SwapAxis() function and have either the mill spindle or the lathe spindle running and the other one stepping as a 4th axis. Seems a PITA and is probably why the machine I'm looking at is using GRBL instead (may get an upgrade to LinuxCNC). Just a thought.



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    Quote Originally Posted by dharmic View Post
    Lol, mactec's interpersonal skills shine upon us once again. QuinnSjoblom: I don't think he even means it as a personal attack, forget it and move on. There's nothing to be gained by continuing down that dead end.

    Still, whilst we're on the Mach3 hatewagon... Will it even support a mill/turn? Looking at the config section, it doesn't look like it supports multiple independent spindles. Or have I missed something? So from what I can see the best you could hope for is you'd need to switch back and forth between C and A spindles using its SwapAxis() function and have either the mill spindle or the lathe spindle running and the other one stepping as a 4th axis. Seems a PITA and is probably why the machine I'm looking at is using GRBL instead (may get an upgrade to LinuxCNC). Just a thought.
    Oh Yes, it's most definitely a PITA to make it work seamlessly. It will take some macros for sure. 2 separate swap axis macros. One for swapping x/z so turning code from fusion cam will work and one for swapping spindle/4th axis. At the same it needs to adjust steps per unit properly between the 2 spindles since the mill spindle and lathe spindle arent gonna have same steps per unit. I don't have the macro skills yet to make it work seamlessly so I'll probably start out with multiple machine profiles for doing turning and 4 axis milling separately just to get it going and test the actual capabilities. Switching to a different control software is definitely an option. I think even mach4 is much easier to deal with when it comes to multiple spindle.
    I've looked at the swissmak and it's very interesting. I would love to eventually build something with the same capabilities, maybe a bit heavier duty, linear rail and ballscrews, servos on all axis. That would require the mill turn spindle as well as a pivoting B head. I would probably lay it out differently than the swissmak though, giving the ability to use an actual mill table rather than being limited to just work in the spindle. The other idea I had which I've been talking about in mach3 section is adding a small sub spindle permanently mounted 90 degrees to my main mill spindle instead of an actual rotating B head. This would allow doing work on the face of parts in the 4th. So many different possible approaches for laying out a machine. Space is an issue for me, so that's even more reason for wanting a multipurpose machine. If I had room, I would consider just building a cnc lathe, but it's not really an option for me at this point.



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    Default Re: Need help brainstorming a solution for this mill turn spindle

    Fair play to you for having a go at it.

    I'll admit: I'm not looking forward to writing the post for Fusion for the Swissmak...



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    Default Re: Need help brainstorming a solution for this mill turn spindle

    Whenever Mactec is wrong, he changes the question so that he's right. Ignore him and move on.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Need help brainstorming a solution for this mill turn spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Whenever Mactec is wrong, he changes the question so that he's right. Ignore him and move on.
    I was not wrong so what's your problem, changed nothing they just could not grasp that you don't loose any resolution no matter how you look at it, if you can't understand how it works go on line and see for yourself

    Here is a snip for you

    This series of high precision, stepper motor driven, vertical/horizontal rotary tables can be used with a milling machine to produce complex parts with great accuracy. The rotary "A" axis is supported by our Mill Master Pro and is commanded in degrees. The standard resolution using half stepping results in 100 discrete positions per degree (or 0.005 degrees/step). The stepper motor is the 34HT390 rated at 6.6 amps per phase and includes prewired, armor jacketed cables with a circular locking Amp connector.

    He only have to replicate this into his drive that he wants to do, electronic gearing works just the same as mechanical gearing

    Mactec54


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    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help brainstorming a solution for this mill turn spindle

    Your answering a different question then he asked, which he pointed out several times. You can go back and read the posts, if you want.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Need help brainstorming a solution for this mill turn spindle

    In your example of those rotary tables, What Is the max rpm they can run? Probably not much. As I said before, the challenge is finding a balance of resolution and speed for use as a mill turn. I'm already quite aware I can easily get 0.005 degree resolution very easily, but the drive will reach it's max capable frequency at a low rpm. Only way to get that rpm back is electronic gearing, with the trade off of... losing resolution. No way around it with a step/dir controlled servo drive with max 500khz frequency. As electronic gearing is increased, resolution at servo shaft is lost, there's no arguing it

    In your mind, there are 3 different guys that are all wrong in exactly the same way and you are right. dont you think maybe a more logical explanation for this phenomenon is than you are possibly the one that is wrong? Seems a bit more likely maybe? Brings me back to this show i was watching the other day. Flat earth activist

    Last edited by QuinnSjoblom; 03-17-2019 at 03:04 PM.


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    Default Re: Need help brainstorming a solution for this mill turn spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Your answering a different question then he asked, which he pointed out several times. You can go back and read the posts, if you want.
    It was all about lost resolution nothing else sorry if we lost you some where

    Last edited by mactec54; 03-17-2019 at 05:39 PM.
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Need help brainstorming a solution for this mill turn spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by QuinnSjoblom View Post
    In your example of those rotary tables, What Is the max rpm they can run? Probably not much. As I said before, the challenge is finding a balance of resolution and speed for use as a mill turn. I'm already quite aware I can easily get 0.005 degree resolution very easily, but the drive will reach it's max capable frequency at a low rpm. Only way to get that rpm back is electronic gearing, with the trade off of... losing resolution. No way around it with a step/dir controlled servo drive with max 500khz frequency. As electronic gearing is increased, resolution at servo shaft is lost, there's no arguing it

    In your mind, there are 3 different guys that are all wrong in exactly the same way and you are right. dont you think maybe a more logical explanation for this phenomenon is than you are possibly the one that is wrong? Seems a bit more likely maybe? Brings me back to this show i was watching the other day. Flat earth activist
    No Resolution is lost if it was, your servo drive would go into a fault mode

    Again you are fixated on resolution, there are many ways to solve this buy buying the right servo and Encoder to start with, or a lower count encoder and use mechanical gearing, machines have had this capability for years nothing new in what you are trying to do, mill turn machines are every where

    The snip I posted was to show you that you can get this step resolution quite easy, which you keep saying you can't

    You have no concept at all of what you are trying to do, I have done it so know how it works

    Yaskawa
    Mitsubishi
    Delta
    And others
    All have a servo system where you could use there servo and servo motor direct drive and have an even much higher accuracy for indexing than what you are looking for, plus 3000RPM for turning all capable of being run by Mach3

    Mactec54


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Need help brainstorming a solution for this mill turn spindle

Need help brainstorming a solution for this mill turn spindle