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  1. #81
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    Also, depending on how round the drops are coming out in your test, then we can determine an additive for the water.

    I think some cooking starch, or Xantam gum will work to make the drops more stable and round, but it will only work if you have something close to 2 bar absolute pressure on the water + gum mix at the nozzles.. If not, it just turns to gel.

    Xanthan gum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



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    I think 1 bar is WAY too much pressure! Any significant pressure and you will get 2 problems;
    1. The water will spray and not fall in one vertical drop.
    2. At high speed the display is over too quick and it's better for the drops to fall slow.

    I was thinking about 0.5 to 1 PSI, just slightly above atmospheric pressure with the main goal to be to keep the pressure constant to give constant drop size and velocity.

    Also it's worth looking into "laminar water fountains" as the laminar flow will fall as a neat stream with no sideways spraying or misting.

    It's an interesting idea to mix stuff with the water but first I would explore the level of performance that can be achieved with plain water. People might want to walk through it etc.



  3. #83
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    Hi, you are probably right about the pressure range. 0.3 meters of water height is very close to 0.5 psi.

    The gum and starch are just in case he has trouble making and keeping round drops and gets too much splatter. The two suggested ingredients are food grade items that we (at least here) consume every day.

    The challenge with using the thickening agents is that they are thixotropic, which is good and bad. They tend to make the water sort of gel when there is no shear force, but are removed when the shear is present. Once the drops come out of the holes, the gel like nature would tend to stabilize them, but it takes pressure to "break the gel" and push it through the holes. Once it hits the ground, it will of course act like water again.

    A good example (but much stronger effect) is toothpaste. When it is still, it acts like a solid, but push on it, and it acts like a liquid. Obviously, that would be a bit too much gelling agent. Hey, what do you expect from a guy trained in chemical engineering - advice on bearings ?



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    Quote Originally Posted by RomanLini View Post
    Also it's worth looking into "laminar water fountains" as the laminar flow will fall as a neat stream with no sideways spraying or misting.
    I'm not sure if there is an easy way to make 100+ laminar flows, but if possible the result would be amazing

    ● Distribuidor Syil en Argentina ● "www.syil.com.ar" ●


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    Harryn- Sure, some thickening agent in the water may solve some issues. Maybe I just like the zen-like simplicity of making a display with "water". Personally I would love to walk through one. How often do you get to walk right through the middle a beautiful moving artwork?

    PEU- Laminar flow is easy enough to make by bundling a number of fine tubes as a neat bundle (obviously all in the same direction).

    One possibility would be to pack a 1/2" outer tube full of tiny fine tubes like the ones on the end of your WD40 spray can. It only needs to be about an inch long.

    You can also bulk order fine stainless steel tube cut to length, they use for syringes and dispensing nozzles.

    I saw a nice display one with a single laminar flow "light pipe" using the one clean stream of water like optic fibre. It was in a science show on light.



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    but, I wonder what would happen if the flow is interrupted very often, as with this application, the water would need to be pressurized or it won't come out of the tiny tubes.

    ● Distribuidor Syil en Argentina ● "www.syil.com.ar" ●


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    A company I worked for built a water wall to project on.Not as impressive as the fountain.
    The holes were very small and had to be precision drilled or the water would not fall in a straight line.Also the small holes could plug easily as the falling water filters the air.
    Larry

    L GALILEO THE EPOXY SURFACE PLATE IS FLAT


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    Hi,
    I have read the good conversation in the previous posts:
    1- High Pressure will surely disturb the water drops pattern especially the shape. I am relying on Water Header pressure only,So keeping the Tank at about 9 Feet height will produce enough pressure Head to solve the problems.
    2- I have purchased a pump US$24 and i am not installing Level control as the Header tank is small in Volume. The Pump will run continuously to recycle the water. You can see the specification of pump by clicking the attached picture.
    3- From the solenoid i have run 8mm tubes to a fixture of 8mm diameter holes. All the 40 tubes will be lined up and straight. So i foresee nearly laminar flow with straight water drops.
    4-I will not use thickening agent for the time now. As the Solenoid valve plug-seat orifice is very small and may be chok.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Lets build Computer Controlled Graphical Fountains-pump-jpg  
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    Lots of info on laminar flow nozzles: Laminar Nozzle talk and pictures

    They use a 4" PVC tube, McDonalds straws, a couple of filters, tube caps and voila! you have a laminar flow nozzle, I'm not sure if you can pulse them fast enough

    ● Distribuidor Syil en Argentina ● "www.syil.com.ar" ●


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    Quote Originally Posted by PEU View Post
    Lots of info on laminar flow nozzles: Laminar Nozzle talk and pictures

    They use a 4" PVC tube, McDonalds straws, a couple of filters, tube caps and voila! you have a laminar flow nozzle, I'm not sure if you can pulse them fast enough
    Oooooo My Goodness....Thats excellent outdoor project ... Laminar Nozzles are easy to make and with the help of solenoid and Steppers we can do the magic...
    Writing software for the outdoor graphical laminar fountain is very easy.. Hi, Pablo, i saw you are the member of the Free forum : The Laminar Project Forum forum.

    I have seen many builds their but didn't find a drawing/sketch to make one... This sure is my next project...

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    Hi Roman,
    I have arranged 33Volts 12amp power supply and install the 47Ohm 5Watt resistor and 50Volt 220mF capacitor as per your provided sketch. The result of the solenoid valve response was about 20% improved from the previous setup( 24V power supply, 220mF capacitor , 45 Ohm 1watt resistors).. Then i removed the capacitor and keep the Resistor alone, the result was more improved and opening and closing of solenoid was much better after removal of capacitor alone.

    Should i must install the capacitor?

    OBSERVATIONS:
    1-Too fast the closing/opening of solenoid gives unbroken stream of water. In this case solenoid operates but can not break the water into drops. The 5Watt resistor become warm (upto 40~45 degree Centrigade)
    2- Increasing the Time between two rows , break the stream of water but it open the solenoid valve for that time duration and water flows. I think 0.1 sec timing gave me good results, the water breaks but not in drops but some blobs as Neil posted the picture in his post.
    3- The Voltmeter readings show 24Volts when solenoid being operated and when solenoid is off it gives 33volts. Keep in mind that the reading taken just after the resistor and the Common GND.

    The fine tuning of timing will be carried out when all 40 solenoid valves fitted.

    Last edited by Khalid; 04-24-2011 at 10:57 AM.
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    If it works best without the capacitor then that might be the way to go. Did you wire it the same as the diagram?

    It's probably worth trying some smaller value caps.

    The speed problem might come down to how fast the solenoid can turn the water off, which will be based on the spring in the solenoid and probably water pressure.

    Some solenoid valves will turn off faster in one water flow direction that the other, so it's worth exploring that. Ultimately if your solenoid valve can't turn off fast enough it will limit the speed of what you can do, as you can make it turn on faster easy enough with the higher voltage and cap, but the turn off will be largely mechanical.

    Also, did you have the diode on the solenoid coil?



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    Quote Originally Posted by RomanLini View Post
    If it works best without the capacitor then that might be the way to go. Did you wire it the same as the diagram?
    Then what is the benefit of adding resistors alone without capacitor? this will only dissipate heat and warming the globe...
    Quote Originally Posted by RomanLini View Post
    It's probably worth trying some smaller value caps.
    As i am not finding a good variety(capacity) of 50Volt capacitorsso can i add 35volt capacitors?
    Quote Originally Posted by RomanLini View Post
    The speed problem might come down to how fast the solenoid can turn the water off, which will be based on the spring in the solenoid and probably water pressure.

    Some solenoid valves will turn off faster in one water flow direction that the other, so it's worth exploring that. Ultimately if your solenoid valve can't turn off fast enough it will limit the speed of what you can do, as you can make it turn on faster easy enough with the higher voltage and cap, but the turn off will be largely mechanical.
    That is really a good point to ponder... Turn-Off of the solenoid is mechanical and during turn-Off the solenoid should pass a very little amount of water.. Now, consider the solenoid is turning-ON fast but Turn-Off slow, what will happen... the solenoid will stop the water most of the time..but in our case, solenoid is open most of the time i.e. slower in turning On for blocking the water...

    Quote Originally Posted by RomanLini View Post
    Also, did you have the diode on the solenoid coil?
    yes I have added the IN4007 across the solenoid .

    Also please guide me is the following arrangement of Capacitor/resistor is what you have suggested?...I have shown a single solenoid valve.
    This is the partial circuit and only shows the Capacitor/Resistor arrangement.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Lets build Computer Controlled Graphical Fountains-capacitor-resistor-sketch-jpg  
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    Just got 50V 100mF capacitors.

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    Khalid, the resistor alone and higher PSU voltage gives a faster solenoid turn on.

    I believe your issues are with the turn off speed, try removing the diode and doing some speed tests again as the diode causes the turn-off to be slower.

    It's probably best to get one solenoid working well first, before deciding on a PCB layout.



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    Quote Originally Posted by RomanLini View Post
    Khalid, the resistor alone and higher PSU voltage gives a faster solenoid turn on.

    I believe your issues are with the turn off speed, try removing the diode and doing some speed tests again as the diode causes the turn-off to be slower.

    It's probably best to get one solenoid working well first, before deciding on a PCB layout.
    Hi Roman, Thanks for responding and helping...
    You are electronics guru so i will follow your advice... I will remove the diode IN4007 from the solenoid valve and test it again... Your guidance is required in this project Roman... I have 50VDC 100mFarad capacitor available too, but i will follow you ...

    I am still using IRF540 that i have installed on PCB 40 each.. i purchased one IRF840 too.. if my IRF540 damaged due to voltage spike (after removal of IN4007) then i will test with IRF840...

    Today i am mounting the header and solenoid valves on its place.. A lot of wiring has to be carried out after that...

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    Also check the design of the solenoid, if you reverse the water in-out tubes it may change the pressure on the mechanism and allow faster turn-off.

    The photo looks cool! Is that it's permanent installation? It looks like it is over a doorway!



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    Hi Roman,
    The solenoid valve is always in closed position. An Arrow mark on the valve body is provided for the direction of installation and fluid flow. If i blow air from the opposite side of the arrow the valve leaks, if i blow air in the direction of arrow the valve does not leak. the construction is just like a "globe valve".

    Based on the above i can not reverse the water inlet/outlet.

    The above picture shows permanent installation of the header and solenoids just above door-free corridor in front of my Drawing Room. this is the best place to mount the waterfall so that my guest can entertain.

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    Cool! I'm sure it will be wonderful to watch.

    Have you tested the solenoid yet to see what the shortest continual on/off periods can be to get equal sized drop/space ratios? That will basically determine your vertical "pixels".

    By changing the software ratio of solenoid on/off you might be able to compensate for your solenoids being slower to turn off than turn on.



  20. #100
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    Bit of a late comer to this, and I admit I have not read EVERY post, but I get the impression you could do with higher speed valve operation, the one you are using are generally not suitable for high speed.
    I would suspect the type you need are high speed fluid dispenser type typically used in mass production?
    These typically can operate around 3ms.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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