Need Help! Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm - Page 2


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Thread: Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm

  1. #21

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    Hi guys,

    Sorry for bringing this oldy up but I thought I'd share my very limited and frustrating experience with mitsubishi drivers etc. I have an old Hartford HV-45 mill running meldas 500 with 3 mds-a-svj-10 for each axis. It seems at this age they tend to leak caps and self destruct (as with the power supply etc). We attempted to repair the boards but now getting a/d errors. I ended having to buy a unit used from China. I was wondering if there is a non mitsubishi drive and motor that will work as a replacement that is (a) newer (b) more generic (c) more cost effective?
    Considering this, I'd like to add a 4th axis but avoid running mitsubishi gear as it seems to be troublesome. Any suggestions?
    Btw my background is a mechatronics engineer so open to the tricky fiddley stuff if need be.

    Thanks for any help you may offer
    Ben



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    Default Re: Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm

    Ben....
    Shoot me a private message and I'll give you my email and, possibly, we can talk on the phone if you are in the States. I've added a 4th axis to my M3 control, but that shares pretty much the same boards and OS as the 500. My guess is that it is similar. I'm familiar with the MR-Sxx drives, but not the MDS-A guys. In fact, you have me scratching my head on that one. The M3 system uses a proprietary interface. If you have an MC161-1 CPU in your system, you are likely using the same interface, which is basically an IDC50 connector. I have only seen one type of drive that interfaces with that setup, and it is the MR-Sxx series. So, part of me is wondering I'm wrong an the M500 is the next generation of CPU. If so, then I'm likely not going to be a ton of help.

    ON EDIT:
    OK, I just pulled some pics up on the M500. It does, in fact, have a different card cage and interface. However, I've got a sneaky suspicion that the whole setup may just be an updated version of the M3xx series. I say this because it is amazing how similar much of the Mitsu stuff is. Even though my machine is going on 30 years old, many of the manuals and such for much newer controls are amazingly relevant. There are several reasons for this but the most important one is money. It is expensive (and risky) to develop a completely new stack every few years. CNC controls are not like cars where there is a huge economy of scale. So, they probably are updating CPUs, taking advantage of newer, high density chips, using more ASICs (but internally having much of the same functions, etc). The old MR-S11 drives are gigantic (but, thankfully, that makes them easier to work on...) and that 50 pin IDC connector is huge. Why use something that big when you have newer connection technologies?

    The point is this... I have been thinking of reverse engineering the MR series connection so I could eventually use other drives. That is great for me because I could use yours. That doesn't help you directly, but in my casual searching on that, I did find that there is one guy that has already reverse engineered the MDS connection/protocol. I found this over a year ago, and I don't recall exactly where I located it. I did briefly communicate with him, though, so I might be able to find him through that. Part of the trouble there, however, is that I think he was in an Eastern Block country. If he is in Ukraine or Russia, well, who really knows if you'll be able to contact him now. :-( Neither of those places is exactly an area where anyone is thinking about ancient CNC stuff, of course.

    But, getting back to the point, there has been some activity on the MDS connector type drives. One thing to be aware of though... Mitsubishi works on a model where you maintain all of your parameters in the control. The drives typically have EEPROM in them, but clearly there is some handshaking that goes back and forth in the param stuff. If the control can't do that, it will likely complain and not work. Because that whole approach is very proprietary, it is highly unlikely that you'll just be able to fabricate a wiring harness and plug it into your whiz bang cheapo drive that you bought on eBay. :-( You are almost certainly going to have to go through some custom circuitry to convert from Mitsu land to "other"...

    Hope this helps....

    Last edited by MrMetric; 09-29-2022 at 10:37 AM.


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    Default Re: Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm

    I'm getting a chuckle here. I found my PM with the gentleman in question, only to do a search on posts and... guess what.... It directed me *back* to this thread! Small world, as well as an embarrassing one! Clearly I didn't go further down the thread to see that. sigh... Anyhow, shoot dm17ry an email. He might be able to help. His email, per a post later in this thread, is: yurtaev at gmail dot com

    BTW, leaking caps isn't a problem with Mitsubishi... It is a problem with all old stuff! It is just part of life.... There is also a good chance that the leaking electrolytic damaged some of the traces on the board. If you can identify those, you can try to bridge them with some wire wrap wire. That will repair your boards in a completely legit way.



  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMetric View Post
    I'm getting a chuckle here. I found my PM with the gentleman in question, only to do a search on posts and... guess what.... It directed me *back* to this thread! Small world, as well as an embarrassing one! Clearly I didn't go further down the thread to see that. sigh... Anyhow, shoot dm17ry an email. He might be able to help. His email, per a post later in this thread, is: yurtaev at gmail dot com

    BTW, leaking caps isn't a problem with Mitsubishi... It is a problem with all old stuff! It is just part of life.... There is also a good chance that the leaking electrolytic damaged some of the traces on the board. If you can identify those, you can try to bridge them with some wire wrap wire. That will repair your boards in a completely legit way.
    Hi MrMetric, I can't work out for the life of me how to turn on the pm and send a message!! This site has become rather confusing to use. An update: I ended buying an mds a Svj 10 from China to replace the inoperable one. I've also come across a guy selling some motors HA100CB with an encoder that says OSE FA coder, 5kn 6 8 108, Ts5146 n6, would you happen to know if this motor/encoder combination will work with either an mds a Svj 10 or mds-b-svj2-10? Tha KS again



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    Default Re: Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm

    BenMoz.... No problem.

    I can't give you a ton of information about the motor/encoder combination right this second, but I am 95% sure I recognize both of these units from my M3 investigations. If that is correct, then the specs for them are in the one of the documentation books for the MR-S11. This is both good and bad. It is good because you can find specs. Among this you will be able to get the pinouts for the encoders. There are two track for them, the position tracks and the UVW sequencing tracks. Now the bad.... The M3 is an older design than the MDS you have. I don't know what they changed on the motor side... You'd have to compare the docs between the MR-S11 and MDS to see if you can find a parallel. The bad thing about Mitsubishi is that it is a very "closed" system. On the M3 control, you cannot free-form motor information. Instead, you have to provide an ID that basically sets the control to the motor. Yes, there are other things you can do for tuning, but I find it highly suspicious when I need to put 13 in for an HA123, for instance (completely made up numbers there...) because I have no idea what is happening with the "13" is being used for..... The point here is that if the MDS is using the same motor/encoder setup, then you are in good shape.... Otherwise, you might need to do a bit more poking around.

    I'll send you a PM in a bit..... Well scratch that.... Apparently you don't have your account setup so that it accepts PMs.



  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMetric View Post
    BenMoz.... No problem.

    I can't give you a ton of information about the motor/encoder combination right this second, but I am 95% sure I recognize both of these units from my M3 investigations. If that is correct, then the specs for them are in the one of the documentation books for the MR-S11. This is both good and bad. It is good because you can find specs. Among this you will be able to get the pinouts for the encoders. There are two track for them, the position tracks and the UVW sequencing tracks. Now the bad.... The M3 is an older design than the MDS you have. I don't know what they changed on the motor side... You'd have to compare the docs between the MR-S11 and MDS to see if you can find a parallel. The bad thing about Mitsubishi is that it is a very "closed" system. On the M3 control, you cannot free-form motor information. Instead, you have to provide an ID that basically sets the control to the motor. Yes, there are other things you can do for tuning, but I find it highly suspicious when I need to put 13 in for an HA123, for instance (completely made up numbers there...) because I have no idea what is happening with the "13" is being used for..... The point here is that if the MDS is using the same motor/encoder setup, then you are in good shape.... Otherwise, you might need to do a bit more poking around.

    I'll send you a PM in a bit..... Well scratch that.... Apparently you don't have your account setup so that it accepts PMs.
    Hi MrMetric,
    Any hints on how to setup PM's? I've tried to find the setting but seems to be non existent. Can the moderator of this site enable it?
    You're right about scouring, has anyone attempted to contact mitsubishi to see if there's a fast track method of identifying compatibility of these sorts of things?
    Thanks again



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    Default Re: Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm

    I think I found your problem with PM.... First login, then click 'settings' on the upper right side of the main pane. The scroll down, and on the left side click 'General Settings'. Find 'Private Messaging' in the main pane and confirm/correct the settings there. My guess is that those are not setup properly.
    Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm-2022-11-21_07-25-51-jpg



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    Default Re: Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm

    OK, I am back to update this thread.

    Back in 2022 there were plans to reprogram my original OSE 253 encoders, so they would be accepted by my newer C1 drives, with the help from dm17ry. However he mysteriously dissapered from this thread by early 2022.
    Anyway I finally bit the bullet and bought 4 (brand new in unopened box) OSE 105S2 encoders from China 2 months ago. One good thing with this "delay" is that the prices seem to have decreased quite a lot! I payed less than $1100 for all four of them at my door!

    The OSE 105S2 encoder already comes with a metal outer cover to fit directly on the HC-type motors (among others I guess), however does not fit my older HA-N type motors. I had to extract the OSE 105S2 encoder from its metal cover, put the old plastic cover and rubber grommet part on it and put this whole assembly back inte the HA motor's big cover. The OSE 105S2 also lacks the temp. sensor connector that clicks into the wire coming from inside the motors armature windings. Oh Nooo, I thought! Will there be an alarm for leaving the sensor out of the system? No problem, I think starting from S2 versions, the sensor wire is not there because the temperature sensing is already integrated in the encoder itself. All other physical measures and bolt pattern ar all the same as on the old OSE 253 encoders! It's a bolt on swap.

    Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm-20240325_095013crop-jpg

    Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm-20240319_145630crop-jpg


    Loosen this circlip and the connector insert can be pushed out from its housing and through to the inside of the cover
    Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm-20240325_095801crop-jpg


    Mounted in reverse order into the old HA-cover, ready to go on the motor again
    Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm-20240409_121811crop-jpg


    When mounting the encoder to the motor's Oldham coupler, you must pay attention to the arrow mark on one of the encoder's coupler arms! This arm goes into the Oldham coupler where the half round notch on the backside of the motor's drive hub is.

    The arrow mark on encoder arm
    Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm-20240325_102315crop-jpg



    The half round notch on backside of motor's drive hub
    Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm-20240325_122038-jpg

    After mounting all encoders, I fired up the system and the 018 alarm was gone. Instead I got alarm about some illegal initial servo parameters. It figures, I updated the parameters that caused problems and tuned the X, and B axis servo motors to get rid of minor humming / vibration issues. Now- clean as a whistle and back to the mechanical assembling which should be like a walk in the park compared to these system tweaks.



  9. #29
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    Default Re: Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm

    Interesting. Thanks for the update and photos.... As for dm17ry, I would would cut him some slack. I am pretty sure he is in that region of the world where one larger entity is being belligerent towards a much smaller entity. I suspect that dm17ry has more pressing things on his mind than dealing with CNC machinery. I can only hope he is still OK....

    I would be a little careful about your assumption that the temperature sensor is embedded in the encoder. That seems like it would be a poor design decision. The heat would be generated by the motor, not the encoder. The encoder is pretty isolated from that heat source (the coils of the motor). As such, it would take a pretty decent amount of time before the encoder ever registered a motor in distress (I think). I'm not saying you are wrong, but it just sounds a little fishy to me.... The heat sensor may well just be a NO thermal switch, so if there is nothing connected, the drive/control thinks everything is OK even when it is not.

    Im also kind of surprised with the use of an Oldham coupler. That doesn't seem like it would be all that accurate. I'd have thought that there would be slop, especially when you are talking about 1M counts per revolution. But, again, I'm just "thinking" not "saying". I certainly can be wrong.

    Anyhow... Interesting stuff. I'm glad you got it all working.



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    Default Re: Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm

    MrMetric,

    Oh dear!! Absolutely no intention to value things here, just report. Apologies to dm17ry, hope you are OK and soon back with us! I have a ton of respect for your skills.

    Regarding "assumption" about temperature sensor in OSE 105S2, I actually concluded that from info in the Mitsubishi AC Servo/Spindle MDS-C1 Series Spec. Manual BNP C3000 C
    in page III-142 Alarm #46. See pic below.
    I also know that aluminium is very efficient heat transporter. If you heat an aluminium part, it does'nt take long before you have burnt fingers.
    If the motor case gets hot, the encoder flange will also be hot and if there is a ratio it is easy to program in the software.

    Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm-20240320_160857-jpg


    Regarding Oldham couplers, All Mits encoders I have been involved with sofar have this oldham coupler. It is a plastic part (high end material I presume) and it has ribs on the mating surfases
    to create interference when mating the parts. What can I say, it works, so no need to "fix it".

    Regarding Anyhow...: Thanks!


    Some more pics of my build
    New C1 spindle drive, power module, servo drives, Contactor, AC reactor etc...

    Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm-20240418_092350-jpg

    Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm-20240418_092424-jpg



    Still a lot of covers and equipment to go on there, but it's only straight-forward assembly work.

    Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm-20240418_092231-jpg

    Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm-20240418_092307-jpg



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    Default Re: Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm

    Absolutely! I am not advocating fixing something that was commercially fabricated unless there is a history of issues with a design! :-).

    Your machine, cabinet, and area around the shop looks like you could eat dinner on it. I'm.... embarrassed! LOL

    Best of luck with the project. It looks very interesting.



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Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm

Changed drives from MDS-A to MDS-C1 series and get S01-PR 0018 alarm