Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide.. - Page 3

View Poll Results: Is a machine operator a machinist

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Thread: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Hi Ian

    I am going to be a shade pedantic about this (and speaking as someone who has been programming computers since about 1970):
    a device that is controlled by AI has an autonomous freedom to decide about an outcome irrespective of the directive given

    This is totally and utterly wrong. What the Press calls an 'AI' is a just program running on a computer. Never forget that!
    The program has strictly ZERO freedom to 'decide' anything. The program will simply follow the instructions it has been given by the programmer. And programmers are human and very fallible.

    Yes, the blind leading the blind.

    Cheers
    Roger



  2. #42
    Member Mecanix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    ?? AI is pretty simple; its an algorithm able to perform both routine or random tasks that normally requires human intelligence.



  3. #43
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Yes, it is simple.
    Routine tasks for which it can optimise internal parameters using thousands of examples - yes. Statistical fitting.
    Random tasks - NO. Not a chance!

    Cheers
    Roger



  4. #44
    Member Mecanix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    Yes, it is simple.
    Routine tasks for which it can optimise internal parameters using thousands of examples - yes. Statistical fitting.
    Random tasks - NO. Not a chance!

    Cheers
    Roger
    If nothing random (i.e decided by the algo per def.) would that not simply be defined as (deep)Machine Learning instead of A.I.? As in the same tensor-flow crap we use for data science and securities trading?
    Was sure A.I. was defined as being capable to make decision, some algo even pro-actively making those decisions (perhaps the wording 'random' was misused?)



  5. #45
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    What is called 'AI' these days is nothing more than statistical machine learning. There is ZERO intelligence involved. Don't believe whatever the salesman is trying to sell you.

    But I am sure there are lots of $$ involved - for the academics (they have to get grants to eat), the businesses, the venture capitalists (obvious), and the Press (they have to sell their copy).

    When an AI-guided car cannot even see a big white truck crossing in front of it - you have a defect in the program (and maybe the hardware too).

    Cheers
    Roger



  6. #46
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    What is called 'AI' these days is nothing more than statistical machine learning. There is ZERO intelligence involved. Don't believe whatever the salesman is trying to sell you.
    lol I'm all too familiar with ML and neural networks (late python/tensor dev) to call this stuff "Intelligent". Great learning and memorizing capabilities but facts indeed remains; dumb as fck.

    It was still worthy of an amusement to try to scare "Our Operators" a bit ;-))



  7. #47
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    So....there is hope for the working class then...…..anyone now joining the engineering work force can rest assured the term AI will not be an impact statement on their possible redundancy in the near future.

    Whewwwww, I thought that robots with AI would make planners and designers obsolete.

    I was under the impression, due to the hype generated by the enthusiastica, that AI was going to be thinking for us and we only had to lay back and take the money as it piled in without lifting a finger...…..the New World Order is not on the horizon and approaching fast apparently.

    Oh well, more work for the CNC people be they operators or machinists.

    Taking it to it's ultimate conclusion...….anyone trying to make contact with an organisation these days will be directed to choose a number of options by a robot voice without actually speaking to anyone, and the end result is if you can successfully hit on an option that meets your needs you get lucky.

    I would like to see a face on my monitor screen when I do one of these exercises instead of having to use the 'phone and make button pushing decisions.....scrolling to a selection is easier than guessing what the first option was or going over it again and again.
    Ian.



  8. #48
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    A.I. might well be able to figure out (or suggest) what button you are most likely to press next, but will never press it for you in fear that it is not what you intended to press at the first place. Pretty redundant and useless technology all together already, sorry to break it to you.

    They are absolutely brilliant at a binary level tough. e.g. Open the gate if car(1), keep the gate closed if cat(0). And that's just about what they're used for, today and, tomorrow.



  9. #49
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Hmmmmm, good thing too, I wouldn't really want a "thing" that anticipates my needs making decisions I might not like afterwards.

    I would, however, like to see AI adapted to a 'phone answering service where the disembodied voice of the "person" at the other end actually does cater for my question when I ask a specific one instead of suggesting a number of option that I cannot relate to for my wants.

    If a 'phone answering service data bank was expanded large enough it would make a dull day extremely interesting indeed, especially for those people who like to indulge in smutty questions to female 'phone service people....LOL, what a ball you could have with the huge and vast array of topics you could dream up.....and nobody at the other end gets offended with your questions.

    What this has to do with operators and machinists I don't know, but it's apparent that when you start out in the trade you make the decision to hit the button or tell someone else to hit it when you say the word.

    Perhaps a computer with a big data file of green for GO conditions "could" give you the nod to go for it and hit the green button.

    It would be simple in that case, no need for a machinist who might have a hangover from the weekend party and overlooks that the stops were not set and crashed the head into the chuck.....with AI the machine sensors would detect an anomaly and block your attempt to go green, provided you gave the AI interpreter.....based up in the cloud..... enough info to make the right decision.

    To get any form or reliability you would need to have a set up that employed a sensor bank for every position of a tool travel or machine component based on it's shape and form so that collision could not happen under any circumstances no matter how you wanted to move the tooling.

    Malfunctions can happen and you would need a back up for your back up system ad finitum just to be safe, but what price is too high for a system without a Human interface.....we are talking about a watcher to watch the watcher actually, and how intelligent does an artificial intelligence have to be just to function.

    I think AI needs to be specific for a particular application and not broad based for every occasion......a Dung Beetle does not need a degree in quantum physics just to get from the nest site to a pile of Bovine excrement and bring some goodies home, it's already endowed with enough intelligence to do the task and decide if the food is good enough to eat......the fact that the food may be otherwise tasty is probably beyond the scope of the beetle's knowledge of food.....even sh!t can look good and taste good if you are a dung beetle.
    Ian.



  10. #50
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Quote Originally Posted by Mecanix View Post
    Put in a modern context (cnc) the machine is the machinist, the operator operates (or control) the machinist.

    e.g I'm not a machinist, anymore, my automated machine-tools are. I am therefore an operator/programmer.
    hy, if a car from today is more complex then it was in 12500bc, this does not mean that you are not a driver; you can not say that a driver is an operator, because it is still holding the wheel; selfdriven cars don't require a driver

    if some tasks can be automated, or partially assited, and you are working 8h/day at that system, this means that you are at least an operator; being a machinist means understanding and adjusting more parameters than an operator

    there is a ratio between machinists and operators, and this ratio is changed by automation; also, automation requires more knowledge for a machinist, and less knowledge for an operator

    there is still a great need for machinists, especially because only 1 can prepare/debug etc, more machines, thus it can solve problems of more than 1 operators; in today cnc enviroment, machinists are still holding the 'wheel' / kindly

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


  11. #51
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    You become an operator when you push a button or crank a handle and the machine takes over the positioning and moving of the tools to shape the workpiece.

    It doesn't matter if you are the one who sets up the machine and inserts multiple tooling...…..once you relegate the production cycle to create the movement of the tooling to the machine you are not a machinist......you could be called a setter or even a setter operator, but NEVER a machinist.

    Anyone who kids themselves that they are now a machinist when in reality they are operators, even with years of experience, has my admiration in that they have more patience than I to stand and watch or work a repetitive machine all day long for ever.

    I am a machinist, fully qualified in the art, and I have never just operated a machine...…... ever.

    Machinists or operators....both have their function, but they will never be on the same level, unless by choice a machinist decided to operate a machine because the money is good......but an operator can never become a machinist if he just wanted to because the money was better.

    There is also a big difference in how a person sees the work load...….operators get paid for piece work or volume output, that means they are selling their lives for money......the harder and faster they work the more money they will make.

    To get more output, the employers invest in state of the art machinery that takes the skill out of the person and makes the machine the skill factor.
    Ian.



  12. #52
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Seems to me that this argument is obsolete, or at the very least seriously lacking.
    What do you call the person who decides how the part should be machined on the CNC equipment available and then creates the program and the fixtures to create the part on the CNC machine? Seems to me that a lot of skill is required for this, skill which perhaps did not exist 100 years ago. Things evolve.

    Cheers
    Roger



  13. #53
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Semi skilled?...…….a lot would depend on hi/her training program, but not an operator per se, that's for sure...…….back in the good old days we did a 5 year apprenticeship to get to a starting point in engineering etc.

    With the rise of CNC all that has changed and now you get a combination of a person gaining basic machine skills of a very narrow spectrum, but still solely for a machine that does the actual work etc.

    If you don't turn the handles that control the machine to produce the finished article you are an operator even if you did it for a 100 years.

    Many years ago it would have been unthinkable to have a person programming and running a production machine, it's an evolution thing that gets to where you want to go by streamlining the process like going from cam controlled autos to peg board auto capstans then onto NC with punched tape and finally CNC with USB etc.

    In the first instance with the cam auto, the operator would not have the skill to produce a cam or a fixture to enable the machine to function, but he is capable of watching a number of machines and bar feeding them as required once they are up and running.

    Once punched tape entered the scene the machine changed to a quicker versatile change at will program orientated device, but the operator still lacked the skill to make the punched. tape...….the continuing evolution of getting more from a machine with less man input meant that the operator had to become more skilled at making the tape or writing the program and make the machine function too as part of the deal.

    My late father was a tool maker, and during the war he set capstan lathes and mills for Women operators to work......and my mother worked on the presses as an operator in the same factory.

    The main difference between an operator and a machinist is one just pushes buttons by nature and the other by choice.
    Ian.



  14. #54
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    @Ian

    I have a hobby of making very small, ultra-light, remote inverted canister stoves for walkers traveling in the snow. I have sold >150 of them (and paid off my CNC in the process). This is one of them.
    Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..-7871b-jpg
    But there is a critical point here: I am dealing with propane, which is dangerous stuff. It leaks and goes whoomp. My stoves are made to about 0.01 mm tolerances. They have to be for two main reasons:
    * I require that the parts be fully interchangeable (for maintenance purposes etc)
    * Working with compressed propane requires very tight tolerances for safety, especially as I sell these stoves to others.

    I could not make 150 miniature stoves identical to 0.01 mm by hand on manual machines. I am not that good, and I am not willing to compromise on quality.
    But I do write the CNC programs myself, longhand, without a CAD/CAM system, to get those results.
    Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..-5406-jpg
    (20 stove bodies being machined.)
    In addition, I have rebuilt parts of my CNC from scratch over the years, but that may be irrelevant here.

    So: am I an operator, or a machinist? Or am I something else?

    Cheers



  15. #55
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    What do you call the person who decides how the part should be machined on the CNC equipment available and then creates the program and the fixtures to create the part on the CNC machine?
    Semi skilled?...…….
    omg i see no reason why this couldn't be done by a semi-skilled average ...

    by working, one can become a machinist

    inside a shop, everything is there, depends how fast one is learning them:
    ... a machinist may invest a lot of time to understand, a he may remain dumb and curios even after several years
    ... an operator, who has his parts being count down by the boss, maybe is smart enough to leave

    is easy to see who-is-who, especially by having a few tests during the interview, or checking previous work

    is hard to see the learning curve, the inner battle of someone, and simply decide that he/she is not suitable for something, because it did not achieve whatever standard in x months ...

    i have seen good people leaving, and ' hope-less ' operators having a major sudden change inside their learning curve

    a machinist, or i would say a person who has experince, is seing the un-seen, is capable of predicting

    So: am I an operator, or a machinist? Or am I something else?
    you are hungry, and you like to play with fire

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


  16. #56
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    you are hungry, and you like to play with fire
    Yup!
    Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..-6384-jpg
    Playing with fire...

    And hungry
    Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..-7634b-jpg
    Well, not when I had finished, anyhow.
    (Stove behind white gas canister)

    Cheers
    Roger



  17. #57
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    By definition....if you use a machine to produce work you have control over you are a machinist, but if you work on a machine to instruction you are an operator.

    It would probably be more accurate to say that if you work on a machine that you set, adjust and have total control over you are a machinist no matter how long you have been doing it, but if you require someone else to set the tools for the machine so you can start work then you are an operator.
    Ian.



  18. #58
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    nice

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


  19. #59
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    I have gone full circle in 28 years, back on a manual lathe, i would love to be back in the cadcam seat with a high speed mill, but those chances are too few in australia now. We all have to pay our bills and humble pie is fine with me.
    Anyhow, cnc makes an interesting hobby out of an often repetitious job, i like it that way.

    Last edited by Zenji; 11-14-2019 at 09:06 AM.


  20. #60
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    Default Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    hello again, i saw an image a few days ago, and i decided to share it here

    if you take 100 random actual "machinists/operators", and compare it to 100 persons from 1990-2000, i guess that on average actual guys are "soft heads", but there are a few actual peaks, thus a few actual guys are much more prepared then the peaks from the past

    i don't believe that actual people are smarter or more capable then they was 30years ago, but technology evolved, and on average, more young people are getting out-of-focus ( too many cheap distractions these days, useless time-consuming ), but those who invest time in them-selfs, will find much more infos then 30years ago

    the topic about women and micro-waves is too hot for me / kindly

    we are merely at the start of " Internet of Things / Industrial Revolution 4.0 " era : a mix of AI, plastics, human estrangement, powerful non-state actors ...


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