So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

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Thread: So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

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    Default So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

    Hi Guys,

    So I have just purchased a Kuhlmann P25SP at pretty much a fire sale - it was going into the scrap metal bin.
    This machine was used for sharpening and forming the cutting edges on rotary die cutters (cutting out labels) for
    a large label printing company.

    Just before this baby came up I was about to get some quotes on getting a product line cnc machined - housings for electronics.
    this came up and hey why not do it in house (aka - my shed).

    Question is...

    The spindle is a Jager ks2-15/80 1.2kW, max 80K rpm 6mm chuck

    Is this spindle up to the job of machining out 100 x 50 x 30mm deep pockets in Aluminium?
    any help or advice greatly appreciated,

    Cheers
    Simon



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    Last edited by Gippy; 09-12-2017 at 02:40 PM.


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    Default Re: So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

    It IS a router, not a CNC machine.
    That said, it can probably machine out the aluminium pockets if you take it gently enough.
    Caution: much will depend on what aluminium alloy you are talking about.
    7000-series - likely.
    6000-series possible, maybe
    5000 series and down: some grief possible.

    You would certainly need an air blast and a pulsed misting system to avoid the dreaded Built-Up Edge failure.

    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    It IS a router, not a CNC machine.
    That said, it can probably machine out the aluminium pockets if you take it gently enough.
    Caution: much will depend on what aluminium alloy you are talking about.
    7000-series - likely.
    6000-series possible, maybe
    5000 series and down: some grief possible.

    You would certainly need an air blast and a pulsed misting system to avoid the dreaded Built-Up Edge failure.

    Cheers
    Roger

    Thanks mate,
    I've been googling flat chat for the last few days - trying to get my head around what this machine can and can't do.
    (still waiting for delivery, it's on a back load with a mates trucking company)

    There's not a heap of info out there on the net about it, but it looks like the Datron M8 range is a fairly similar beast.

    Should handle pretty much any metal I throw at it ? 20,000 - 80,000 rpm spindle with the right tooling?



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    Default Re: So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

    Should handle pretty much any metal I throw at it ? 20,000 - 80,000 rpm spindle with the right tooling?
    Very very doubtful. Those spindle speeds are OK for timber, but will likely melt plastics unless very carefully tuned. You would need very fast movements.
    Aluminium - maybe, with light cuts, maybe.
    Steel - I suspect the cutter would either glow red or stall. The frame of the machine would flex.

    It is NOT a CNC machine; it is a router. There is a difference. The Datron M8 probably costs at least 10x as much, if not more.
    But finding out what you can do with your machine is part of the fun, Sadly, I have to mention that cutters are considered 'expendable' or 'consumable' in this game.

    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

    Hi Roger,
    I think you may be confusing this machine with something else?
    Not sure why you're saying its not a CNC machine?
    it's made with all the good stuff......
    Andron controller, bosch rexroth servo drives, bosch rexroth screws, rexroth lin rails, Jager spindle, 10 spot ATC, Laser tool height and tool profile measuring, 800 x 750mm vacuum bed, 2500 kg machine weight (built like a tank). 0.1uM resolution? 15m/min max speed.

    But yeah, re: the cutters - about to order some from datron, single flute carbide etc.. Just picked up some Vaseline - I'm going to need it



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    Default Re: So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

    OK, I stand (slightly) corrrected: it is listed as an engraving machine, not as a router.

    I am sure it is a very fine engraving machine, and it could do wonderful fine detailed engraving work. It might machine pockets in aluminium with very small cutters if handled correctly too, although 'pockets' are a different matter to engraving. But an engraving machine is NOT a milling machine, no matter what fine materials went into the build. (At least, it is a well-made German machine, not a cheap Chinese heap.)

    I rather doubt that the very high speed spindle will be suitable for machining steel, although it may well manage to do some fine engraving of steel.

    You see, the 1.2 kW spindle power you have is mostly used getting up to that speed, overcoming bearing friction and air drag. There is not a lot of power left at the tip for cutting. With a tiny engraving tip, that does not matter, but trying to put a 6 mm cutter in to machine steel would be vastly different. Now, if you geared that spindle down by a factor of 20 in rpm, then you might be able to machine hard materials. I suspect however that replacing the spindle with a lower speed unit would be far more effective.

    Eh - play with it and see. Could be lots of fun. After all, these are just my opinions, and I might be wrong.

    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

    80K.....that is practically grinding the work instead of cutting it.......you might be better off using a grinding stone to fine finish steel molds etc.

    Replacing the spindle is one option, but as the machine was designed to do certain work at a very high spindle speed, a slower spindle would put more stress on the frame that might not be strong enough to handle it.

    Your biggest problem will be, anything that goes wrong with it is going to need parts made for it and that, like a BMW car, will need a trip to your mortgage broker and delays on part sourcing.

    I would have to ask myself if I were buying it.....why was it destined for the scrap bin as opposed to selling it on Grey's auctions, EBAY etc.

    If the machine turns out to be too lightly constructed or needing an overhaul, you could convert it to a laser cutter/engraver without too much pocket money being lost and then sell it on to buy a more suitable machine......or keep it just for wood work.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

    For shame Ian - you are looking the gift horse in the mouth.
    Um - wonder how many teeth it has?

    It would need to be a rather small (probably ball-shaped) stone to get anywhere near those rpm though. I guess at 80k that would be OK.

    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

    No, only kidding....grinding on a CNC anything is a no no.

    A lot depends on the machine build itself for a potential usage.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    No, only kidding....grinding on a CNC anything is a no no.

    A lot depends on the machine build itself for a potential usage.
    Ian.



    I'll give it a go



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    Default Re: So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

    No, only kidding....grinding on a CNC anything is a no no.
    Oh. I did not know that.
    I did make some sub-masters from my master right angle plate (out of old steel angle stock, well-aged). Cut the surfaces with a carbide cutter at first, then finished them off with a small pink alox grinding wheel. Yeah, some plastic wrapped around to keep the machine clean, but by going VERY gently I don't think the alox wheel actually lost much grit at all. Nice finish.

    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

    Hi, grinding does require dressing the wheel occasionally or you just load it up and it rubs instead of cutting the work......you need a constant coolant flow or you burn the surface......ball screws don't like grinding grit at all.

    I have done some grinding on a lathe with a tool post grinder.....but it wasn't my lathe
    Ian.



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    Default Re: So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

    Hi Ian

    Yes to all of the above - on both lathe and mill. Slow, lots of setting up needed (grit control!), but a very nice finish.

    Cheers
    Roger



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So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )

So I just bought a German CNC mill / engraver, need some advice : )