MB3 ESS and MACH 4 two servos on one output not possible ESS reset velocity C

[Gynaekologe]

Hello,
I recently bought a Machbob3 breakoutboard with ESS smoothstepper from CNCroom and have a little problem with setting it up wth Mach4


On Y-axis I have two servo Motors from leadshine each one has an individual servo drive.

They both are getting the same signal only turning in opposite directions.
They are getting there step and dir signal from the MB3 Breakoutboard from output for Y axis (I tried also one motor on y axis output and one on A axiis but it didnt change the problem.)

Everything seems correctly connected I double -checked a lot of times.

I also connected one to output for Y axis and one to A axis and set this up in Mach4 with the same problem.

Each motor connected standalone is working but when both are connected MACH4 dont want to move the axis its showing up E-stop when trying to move the gantry. (ESS Reset velocity C) is showing up in LOG

Some of you guys maybe know a solution.

I attached some Pictures showing the wiring and also showing what errors Mach4 is showing.


Thanks for help in advance.

Best Martin

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[dazp1976]

Hello,
I recently bought a Machbob3 breakoutboard with ESS smoothstepper from CNCroom and have a little problem with setting it up wth Mach4


On Y-axis I have two servo Motors from leadshine each one has an individual servo drive.

They both are getting the same signal only turning in opposite directions.
They are getting there step and dir signal from the MB3 Breakoutboard from output for Y axis (I tried also one motor on y axis output and one on A axiis but it didnt change the problem.)

Everything seems correctly connected I double -checked a lot of times.

I also connected one to output for Y axis and one to A axis and set this up in Mach4 with the same problem.

Each motor connected standalone is working but when both are connected MACH4 dont want to move the axis its showing up E-stop when trying to move the gantry. (ESS Reset velocity C) is showing up in LOG

Some of you guys maybe know a solution.

I attached some Pictures showing the wiring and also showing what errors Mach4 is showing.


Thanks for help in advance.

Best Martin

Have you simply tried...
1 axis as dir setting 'active low'
Other axis dir setting 'active high'

Under mach3 the high/low swaps directions.
Would've thought Mach4 would be the same.
All this does is turns the I/O either on or off to swap it.

[Gynaekologe]

Hello thanks for your answer.
Direction of the Motors is NOT the problem both motors turn in the right direction when connected independently.

The Problem is when both motors are connected to the BOB then an ESS E-stop signal is send for an unkown reason.
The LOG is showing ESS: ESTOP signal is active. and it cant be claered and is appearing as of an unknown reason.

No endstop or anything that could activate an ESTOP is triggered.


Is it possible that I have to add an noise Filter (or is it maybe an EMV Problem?)
X and Z axis are working flawless but also have only one Motor.

After jogging any axis in Mach 4 with both Y-motors connected (that worked because i disabled the X++ switch) I can now jog any axis in mach4. suddenly an ESS:ESTOP active failure appeared again and i wasnt able to reset the machine to jog again.

I attached a file showing the LOG in readable quality.

Directly after turning on the machine all axis are jogging without a problem but after some time always the ESS: ESTOP is active signal appears.

So the problem is not there after restart but appears after enabling the machine in MACH4.
And sometimes it also appears without enabling the machine in MACH 4.

Thanks in advance!

[mactec54]

Hello thanks for your answer.
Direction of the Motors is NOT the problem both motors turn in the right direction when connected independently.

The Problem is when both motors are connected to the BOB then an ESS E-stop signal is send for an unkown reason.
The LOG is showing ESS: ESTOP signal is active. and it cant be claered and is appearing as of an unknown reason.

No endstop or anything that could activate an ESTOP is triggered.


Is it possible that I have to add an noise Filter (or is it maybe an EMV Problem?)
X and Z axis are working flawless but also have only one Motor.

After jogging any axis in Mach 4 with both Y-motors connected (that worked because i disabled the X++ switch) I can now jog any axis in mach4. suddenly an ESS:ESTOP active failure appeared again and i wasnt able to reset the machine to jog again.

I attached a file showing the LOG in readable quality.

Directly after turning on the machine all axis are jogging without a problem but after some time always the ESS: ESTOP is active signal appears.

So the problem is not there after restart but appears after enabling the machine in MACH4.
And sometimes it also appears without enabling the machine in MACH 4.

Thanks in advance!

Where did you add the EMI Filter and what is the specs of the Filter??

You normally won't see a EMI problem unless the spindle is running, and if all the wiring is correct then you will never have a EMI problem

It sounds like there is a problem in the wiring to cause the EStop

All your low voltage wires should be twisted in there pairs

[CNCMAN172]

I do think this is noise related. Check your estop input. I can’t recall if the ESS uses a pull up or pull down resistor, you are using a BOB with it so basically you want to run a test where that input can not be activated. You could remove the estop wire to the Bob. If you get no error without the estop wire removed you have a noise issue

Russ

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
are you using two set of motor outputs?

Mach4 is different to Mach3 in that to have a slave axis in Mach3 you would 'slave' the A (or B) axis to the Y (or X).
In Mach4 you have a master motor for each axis, and then EACH master can have up to four slave motors.

You might assign motors like this:
motor 0 =X axis
motor 1 =Y axis master
motor 2 =Y axis slave
motor 3 =Z axis

On your BoB you would need four pairs of Step/Dir signals. You should not try to hook two motors to the one output pair, it should be one pair per motor.

Craig

[mactec54]

Hi,

On your BoB you would need four pairs of Step/Dir signals. You should not try to hook two motors to the one output pair, it should be one pair per motor.

Craig

Really please take a reality check

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
many have tried to run two motors from the one pair of outputs, often with bad results.

Craig

[mactec54]

Hi,
many have tried to run two motors from the one pair of outputs, often with bad results.

Craig

With you being an electronic guy you should know better, you can even get Breakout Boards that have ( 1 ) axis signal with ( 2) X axis outputs, it works just fine with any control

One Breakout Board that you should of known about is DMM they have this on their Breakout Board for more than 15 years, there are other Boards that support this as well, they have a jumper to select for the direction for the second motor if it is needed, so both motors can be wired the same and the direction signal is all that is changed

You say many have tried, have you tried this yourself, or are you just speaking with no experience as usual If anyone is having a bad result, is because they have other problem not because of this. a drive does not care where or how it get a Step / Dir signal

[dazp1976]

With you being an electronic guy you should know better, you can even get Breakout Boards that have ( 1 ) axis signal with ( 2) X axis outputs, it works just fine with any control

One Breakout Board that you should of known about is DMM they have this on their Breakout Board for more than 15 years, there are other Boards that support this as well, they have a jumper to select for the direction for the second motor if it is needed, so both motors can be wired the same and the direction signal is all that is changed

You say many have tried, have you tried this yourself, or are you just speaking with no experience as usual If anyone is having a bad result, is because they have other problem not because of this. a drive does not care where or how it get a Step / Dir signal

Technically, that's still using 2 axis outputs. IE: using 4 of the axis off a 6 axis board for instance. It's just been specifically designed to link 2 of them is all. Make ones direction run act high and the other run act low without touching the software.

Most of the issues I know of that people talk about is when they try using only 3 axis outputs to control 4 steppers.
Sounds mostly to do with usb type controllers.
Or if a controller specifically states it doesn't support slave use and peeps don't read the specs properly.

[joeavaerage]

Hi Matec,
there are quite a number of posts on the Mach forum where people have tried to use one pair of Step/Dir outputs to signal two drives and failed.
The inputs to the drives are photodiodes with some small value current limit resistor. Inevitably the current does not share equally between the two drives
with the result that one works and the other either doesn't or works poorly. Most breakout boards for Mach tend to be 5V, which in turn results from the legacy of
the parallel port. The lower the voltage the more problematic the current sharing problem.

In OPs case the MB3 has 24V IO EXCEPT the Step/Dir motor drive outputs, which are 5V differential. Were two drives hooked to the same output pair its probable
that the issues others have encountered would occur, quite aside from the excess current loading on the outputs of the line driver ICs of the MB3.

I have never seen a DMM breakout board, although the addition of an output pair for a slaved axis is a good idea. I don't recall anyone in the Mach world using
a DMM breakout board, although DMM servos are becoming increasingly popular so would presume the use of a DMM breakout board would increase also.
How much are they worth? If they are pricey that could explain why so few people in the Mach world use them.

Craig

[mactec54]

Technically, that's still using 2 axis outputs. IE: using 4 of the axis off a 6 axis board for instance. It's just been specifically designed to link 2 of them is all. Make ones direction run act high and the other run act low without touching the software.

Most of the issues I know of that people talk about is when they try using only 3 axis outputs to control 4 steppers.
Sounds mostly to do with usb type controllers.
Or if a controller specifically states it doesn't support slave use and peeps don't read the specs properly.

No not at all it is only using 1 Axis with 2 sets of outputs, only 1 axis is setup in the control to drive 2 motors this has been available for ever there is nothing technical about it just a simple connection

Makes no difference if they have a 3 axes board 4 axis or just 1 axis it can still be done without any problems and can be better than using a slave axis as the timing are perfectly the same

[mactec54]

Hi Matec,
there are quite a number of posts on the Mach forum where people have tried to use one pair of Step/Dir outputs to signal two drives and failed.
The inputs to the drives are photodiodes with some small value current limit resistor. Inevitably the current does not share equally between the two drives
with the result that one works and the other either doesn't or works poorly. Most breakout boards for Mach tend to be 5V, which in turn results from the legacy of
the parallel port. The lower the voltage the more problematic the current sharing problem.

In OPs case the MB3 has 24V IO EXCEPT the Step/Dir motor drive outputs, which are 5V differential. Were two drives hooked to the same output pair its probable
that the issues others have encountered would occur, quite aside from the excess current loading on the outputs of the line driver ICs of the MB3.

I have never seen a DMM breakout board, although the addition of an output pair for a slaved axis is a good idea. I don't recall anyone in the Mach world using
a DMM breakout board, although DMM servos are becoming increasingly popular so would presume the use of a DMM breakout board would increase also.
How much are they worth? If they are pricey that could explain why so few people in the Mach world use them.

Craig

DMM has been in this business for more than 20 years, they have not focused on the hobby world at all, there main focus is with the commercial world where they are widely used.

DMM have sold hundreds of there Breakout Board, the motor drive is not slaved in any way they use the same port and pin connection, you don't hear about it because they work with no problems, so there would be no reason for there board to be in the Mach world. I have used lots of them as well, not everyone is involved with the Mach world, I myself have never been there

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

you don't hear about it because they work with no problems

Well that's certainly true, you tend to hear less about products that work than those that have troubles. On the DMM website the 5 Axis breakout board is listed at $128USD...and I suspect that's
why so few Mach hobbyists bother with them. $20-$30 is the norm for Mach ready breakout boards.

OP, in this thread, has sprung for an MB3 ($180), which is a good quality board with three ports developed for 51 IOs, including 5 axis differential Step/Dir outputs. That certainly puts OP at the upper
end of the Mach spectrum.

DMM has been in this business for more than 20 years, they have not focused on the hobby world at all, there main focus is with the commercial world where they are widely used.

Only in recent years has the price of very credible servos like DMM and Delta have come down enough that they are increasingly used by hobbyists. Even then most Mach hobbyists go for Clearpath
servos because of they have been designed and optimised as a simple replacement for steppers, despite the many advantages that DMM and Delta have over Clearpath, not least the price.

Most of the Mach hobbyists whom are serious enough about CNC are transitioning to Mach4, there is a learning curve, but the result is a capable and flexible control system, albeit open loop.
More recently still Kingstar have collaborated with Interval Zero and NFS and come up with a Ethercat master. The Mach4Hobby, RTX64 runtime and Kingstar Ethercat plugin running on a refurbished
PC of medium spec (included) is $1600. This system is designed for use by OEMs rather than hobbyists, but its not out of the way.

Craig

[dazp1976]

OP, in this thread, has sprung for an MB3 ($180), which is a good quality board with three ports developed for 51 IOs, including 5 axis differential Step/Dir outputs. That certainly puts OP at the upper
end of the Mach spectrum.
Craig

Only 51 IO ?
Meh

[Gynaekologe]

Hello,
We disconnected the ESTops from the MB3 Board and the Y Axis is moving without Problems.

Maybe there is a Brocken cable in the ESTops Wiring that Produces this.

Maybe IT IS also An interference Problem becAuse IT only Happens when y Motors are moving and they are near to the cable of the ESTops.

When there is no Brocken cable i will try shielded cable for the Motors.


Best Martin and Felix

[mactec54]

Hi,



Well that's certainly true, you tend to hear less about products that work than those that have troubles. On the DMM website the 5 Axis breakout board is listed at $128USD...and I suspect that's
why so few Mach hobbyists bother with them. $20-$30 is the norm for Mach ready breakout boards.

OP, in this thread, has sprung for an MB3 ($180), which is a good quality board with three ports developed for 51 IOs, including 5 axis differential Step/Dir outputs. That certainly puts OP at the upper
end of the Mach spectrum.



Only in recent years has the price of very credible servos like DMM and Delta have come down enough that they are increasingly used by hobbyists. Even then most Mach hobbyists go for Clearpath
servos because of they have been designed and optimised as a simple replacement for steppers, despite the many advantages that DMM and Delta have over Clearpath, not least the price.

Most of the Mach hobbyists whom are serious enough about CNC are transitioning to Mach4, there is a learning curve, but the result is a capable and flexible control system, albeit open loop.
More recently still Kingstar have collaborated with Interval Zero and NFS and come up with a Ethercat master. The Mach4Hobby, RTX64 runtime and Kingstar Ethercat plugin running on a refurbished
PC of medium spec (included) is $1600. This system is designed for use by OEMs rather than hobbyists, but its not out of the way.

Craig

I was using this system they now call Kingstar more than 20 years ago so nothing new about this, you could use fiber optics or EtherCat, Softservo was the first to use this system integrated with their CNC Control, so it has been around for a long time, just not available at the hobby level, in reality it is still not there for the Hobby user because of the cost, it also requires a none standard Ethernet port so not any computer can be used with this Realtime system they require Intel 1210 TI or 1211-AT and require a minimum of 2 Ports, some other Intel Ethernet ports will work also but not many.

DMM have always had a low price range for AC Servos, their Breakout Board was designed for the low voltage AC Servos they sell 48V to 70V the board has a built in power filter for the Drives

Clearpath are not suitable for real CNC machines, a lot use them though with poor results, good enough for wood working machines though, but not much better than a good closed loop stepper, they were designed for automation use, which is where they are mostly used.

Attached is a low voltage 4 Axis Dmm kit I used to build; this could use up to their 750w Ac servo motors, true plug and play, this small package can do 4 axis plus1 Axis able to have 2 drives / motors and full spindle control, I used most of these packages with a UC100 Plus their control software and some with Mach3, also used Eding CNC and Acorn with this package

[mactec54]

Hello,
We disconnected the ESTops from the MB3 Board and the Y Axis is moving without Problems.

Maybe there is a Brocken cable in the ESTops Wiring that Produces this.

Maybe IT IS also An interference Problem becAuse IT only Happens when y Motors are moving and they are near to the cable of the ESTops.

When there is no Brocken cable i will try shielded cable for the Motors.


Best Martin and Felix

Have you connected the motor Power Ground wire to Ground, this is required, preferably to the drive and then all Grounds to a main Ground Bus

The shielded cable if you do change them, must have the shields correctly terminated or you can / will have problems also.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

I was using this system they now call Kingstar more than 20 years ago so nothing new about this, you could use fiber optics or EtherCat,

Strictly speaking Ethercat is not new to Mach either, until recently you would require an extra Ethercat board, the likes of Hicon, Gallil or Mesa in addition to your PC loaded with Mach.,
and this solution to Ethercat using Mach as trajectory planner has been around for a decade or so.

What is a fairly new development is the use of Interval Zero's RTOS which makes one or more cores of a PCs CPU genuine realtime devices capable of handling realtime comms like Ethercat.
Kingstar and Interval Zero collaborated and now have a software solution that makes any moderately spec'ed PC into an Ethercat master WITHOUT the need for any extra hardware. You may be correct
that the PC would require a specific Ethernet card, although no mention has been made of it other than you.

This solution was released about 18 months ago.

Automation Technologies sell a Mach4Hobby Ethercat solution. The kit consists of a re-furbished PC of moderate spec, I would guess an ex-lease PC, with the RTX64 and Kingstar plugins/licenses and Mach4Hobby license
pre-loaded for $1600USD.

https://www.automationtechnologiesin...ntrol-computer

Somewhat confusingly the same company sells Mach4 Ethercat kits that use a separate Ethercat communication board, which is to my way a of thinking a lesser solution
and should not be confused with the Kingstar solution.

I compared that with the same moderate spec PC, say $600, plus Mach4Hobby, $200 and an Ethernet SmoothStepper, $190 for a total of $990USD.

So the Ethercat solution is more expensive, about $610USD more than a reasonably capable hobby level system. The price premium may well put many people off but not all. There
are a few respondents on the Mach forum that report good results with this system. This does not include the extra you might pay for Ethercat servos and Ethercat IO nodes, so yes
Ethercat can be expensive, on the other hand it can be scaled beyond any conceivable hobby system.

To date my existing Ethernet SmoothStepper solution is working well for me but should I become IO limited in any way I'll step up to Kingstar/RTX64 Ethercat.

Craig

[mactec54]

Hi,Strictly speaking Ethercat is not new to Mach either, until recently you would require an extra Ethercat board, the likes of Hicon, Gallil or Mesa in addition to your PC loaded with Mach.,and this solution to Ethercat using Mach as trajectory planner has been around for a decade or so.

What is a fairly new development is the use of Interval Zero's RTOS which makes one or more cores of a PCs CPU genuine realtime devices capable of handling realtime comms like Ethercat.
Kingstar and Interval Zero collaborated and now have a software solution that makes any moderately spec'ed PC into an Ethercat master WITHOUT the need for any extra hardware. You may be correct
that the PC would require a specific Ethernet card, although no mention has been made of it other than you.

This solution was released about 18 months ago.

Automation Technologies sell a Mach4Hobby Ethercat solution. The kit consists of a re-furbished PC of moderate spec, I would guess an ex-lease PC, with the RTX64 and Kingstar plugins/licenses and Mach4Hobby license
pre-loaded for $1600USD.

https://www.automationtechnologiesin...ntrol-computer

Somewhat confusingly the same company sells Mach4 Ethercat kits that use a separate Ethercat communication board, which is to my way a of thinking a lesser solution
and should not be confused with the Kingstar solution.

I compared that with the same moderate spec PC, say $600, plus Mach4Hobby, $200 and an Ethernet SmoothStepper, $190 for a total of $990USD.

So the Ethercat solution is more expensive, about $610USD more than a reasonably capable hobby level system. The price premium may well put many people off but not all. There
are a few respondents on the Mach forum that report good results with this system. This does not include the extra you might pay for Ethercat servos and Ethercat IO nodes, so yes
Ethercat can be expensive, on the other hand it can be scaled beyond any conceivable hobby system.

To date my existing Ethernet SmoothStepper solution is working well for me but should I become IO limited in any way I'll step up to Kingstar/RTX64 Ethercat.

Craig

It's the same system I first used more than 20 years ago, nothing different same company different name, nothing new about what they are doing, this will not run on any computer, without the correct Ethernet ports, it will be in their hardware requirement page if you check.

All they added was a plugin for Mach4 which was released about 18 months ago, like you said, and is still work in progress, as there are some functions that still do not work, I was working with them for a while, to source custom mother boards, so know what's going on. the Idea of using Mach4 was to try and sell more systems, they could do plugin for any CNC Control if they want to, this is very time consuming Mach4 took more than a year and is still not perfect.

If anyone wants to use this system, then SoftServo has the control for you. it is expensive, though superior to any other high-end control