Need help to get my motors to work

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Having to program in both the Mach configure screens as well as the ESS configure screens is really causing me issues. I have filled in all parameters, but obviously something isn't right because I have no 0-10v signal coming out of the BOB.

That situation is quite confusing to start with. The ESS has its own plugin as does Mach4. For a signal, be it an input or an output, needs to be configured in both for it to work.
Conveniently but also somewhat confusingly when you populate a signal in the ESS plugin it will automatically update the Mach Control plugin also. Where it gets confusing
is that its not apparently consistent across all signal types.

For instance if you wish to assign a probe input, then you go to the ESS plugin, assign a port and pin, with an alias if you desire on the Ports&Pins page, then connect that pin
to the logical Mach4 signal on the ESS InputSignals page. Now if you go and check out the Mach Control plugin you'll find that too has been populated with consistent data
courtesy of the ESS plugin Editor.

This is where the confusion starts: you assign axis motor step and direction signals in the ESS plugin as normal, but the motor tuning is exclusively in the Mach plugin.

The rule-of-thumb is that any signal, input or output, other than motor signals are mapped in their entirety from the ESS plugin to the Mach Control plugin.
Motor signals are a mix, the pin assignments are in the ESS plugin whereas the motor to axis and all motor tuning data is exclusively in the Mach control plugin.

The good news is that while this is confusing to start with, once you have it mastered you can forget it all over again. When I setup my mini-mill six years ago with the new ESS
I struggled just like you are now but since then I've probably opened the two plugins a dozen times since for minor tweaks.

I have an old Mach4 ESS plugin (V216) on my machine and have had since it was released probably three years ago, its not broken so I just never get around to updating it.
When I get to work I will look somewhat more closely at the Spindle page in the ESS plugin.

If memory serves all the main spindle tuning data is in the ESS plugin. Noting the difference between the spindle and the axis motors. In particular axis motors have to be coordinated
consequently Mach must have full knowledge and access to the motor tuning data whereas the spindle is just a free running out-of-band motor, albeit with some extra features
like m3,m4,m5 and Sxxx etc. Consequently the ESS plugin can handle the spindle, ergo the spindle tuning data is in the ESS plugin.

Craig

[Danno]

Thanks Craig;

I've spent my whole Saturday just trying to get the spindle to run, but I give up. I'm totally stressed out, and probably should not have started this project. Too late now and I MUST get this thing working. It's very frustrating because I was able to do all this on Mach3 12 years ago with no problems. GETTING OLD SUCKS!
I've gone over every config screen 20 times and I just can't see where the problem is. Hopefully someone will guide me through this ( in layman terms) because I'm at a stand still.

Thanks again for the help.
Dan

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
I think your stressing over very little. You say that you can turn the spindle on manually? If so don't get so hung up about it.

When working at a manual mill, you reach over, turn the spindle on and then work the wheels to follow your toolpath, when
the toolpath is complete, you reach over an turn it off. If you want to change speed, you did it manually. It was ALL manual,
and when I use the manual mill today that exactly what I still do. Guess what, I can still produce nice parts that way too!

If you had to reach over and turn the spindle on manually before you run a CNC toolpath....so what?. How many times do you actually
change speed during a toolpath? Not often I'll be bound.

What I'm getting at is that having the spindle under CNC control is nice but hardly a deal breaker.

Craig

[Danno]

The stress is not the machine itself, but my inability to figure it out. I used to be able to do this stuff in my sleep, now I’m second guessing everything I do.
I totally agree that I could turn the spindle on/off manually, but I won’t give up until it will run through G code.
What this hobby needs is a “Mach 4 for Dummies” book to teach the absolute basics on how all the components relate to each other.
One of the reasons I went with this BOB was because it could output the 0-10v signal needed, so I definitely want it to work.
Dan

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

What this hobby needs is a “Mach 4 for Dummies” book to teach the absolute basics on how all the components relate to each other.

What with this forum, the Mach4 Forum and the ESS Forum, that is pretty much exactly what you've got. The problem with books and manuals is that no-one reads them,
or if they do they skim read and then complain that their problem is not addressed. In most cases it is.....if you slow down and truly absorb the material being presented.

You will no doubt have seen and heard people complain that 'Mach4 is so hard...' or 'There is no documentation....' or 'There is no backup.....'or....and the list goes
on. There is in fact documentation, and there is support both by NFS and Warp9TD but the truth is Mach4 and its hardware has a learning curve, and a steep one.
This is compounded by the fact that there is one manufacturer making the software (NFS) and another making the external controller (Warp9TD) and often yet another
making the breakout board.

The good news is that if you persevere you will get it done, and be damned proud of it. I often say that the true measure of a hobby is 'The amount of learning you have to
do in its pursuit'. CNC in general is an engaging hobby, and setting up a new software solution, external controller and breakout board is a distinct challenge and a
great learning oppurtunity...&^%$%%$#@!!!!!

Craig

[Danno]

Craig;

I posted these 4 screen shots to show what I've configured in both the Mach and ESS.
I spent another day spinning my wheels with no luck. If I don't get this going in a day or so I will start a new topic because this post is now old and I don't think anyone is looking.
Please let me know if you see anything missing or wrong.

It's too bad the software builders don't update their online tutorials and manuals. I have not found one tutorial describing how to program the spindle with the latest version of Mach4 and the ESS. Most tutorials are still talking about Mach3 which is now outdated, or an older version of Mach4 with totally different looking screens. It makes it extremely confusing for those of us that are not very good with computers and computer terminology. I also tried to join the forum at CNCroom where my BOB was made to get answers, but the forum is not in English.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
Firstly I see you have enabled spindle PID? Do you have an encoder hooked to your spindle?
If you are trying to get the spindle to work why are you introducing complications like spindle PID?
The old saw is 'Don't try to run before you can walk'.

Secondly I see you have nominated 'Spindle Index Input' as your source for the spindle rpm DRO? Do you have a spindle index pulse generator?

Now lets look at what outputs you are using and try to determine a test to see whether they are working.

You have nominated Port1Pin14 as your Spindle FWD output. Have you put a mulitmeter on the pin to determine whether it changes state?
As you have set it it is Active High. If you change that to Active Low and restart Mach (so the ESS uploads the new firmware setting) does the pin
change state?.

Do you intend, need or require a reversing spindle? I spent quite a bit of time shagging around trying to get the spindle to reverse......and then never bloody used it!
If you don't require a reversing spindle then consider using Machs OSIG_SPINDLE_ON signal instead of OSIG_SPINDLE_FWD.

There are other tricks you can use to test a signal/ESS/BoB. For instance how about assigning Port1Pin14 as an X++ limit output. Then you could flick
the X++ limit switch to test whether your spindles runs or not. Indeed have a look on the MachineDiagnotics tab and you will see a whole bunch of LEDs
tied to certain Mach signals, you could use any of them, noticing that the LED indicates whether Mach is setting/unsetting the signal and whether the
pin of your choice is responding.

You have nominated Port1Pin16 as PWM. Have you put a multimeter on the pin to attempt to detect the presence of PWM signal from the ESS?
Note that a multimeter is not the best instrument to determine presence or absence of PWM but short of using an oscilloscope you don't have much choice.

Until you can confirm that both signals are present and responsive to Mach there is little point in chasing them through the BoB to the VFD.

Craig

[Danno]

Hi,
Firstly I see you have enabled spindle PID? Do you have an encoder hooked to your spindle?
If you are trying to get the spindle to work why are you introducing complications like spindle PID?
The old saw is 'Don't try to run before you can walk'.



I checked it off because an example I saw online had it checked off. I don’t have a clue what the “PID” even stands for, and no, I don’t have an encoder.


Secondly I see you have nominated 'Spindle Index Input' as your source for the spindle rpm DRO? Do you have a spindle index pulse generator?



No I don’t ! I checked it off because I want the RPM shown on the DRO of the Mach4 screen. I assumed DRO stood for the digital readout on Mach4.



Now lets look at what outputs you are using and try to determine a test to see whether they are working.
You have nominated Port1Pin14 as your Spindle FWD output. Have you put a mulitmeter on the pin to determine whether it changes state?



I didn’t, because right now I have the VFD wired remotely so it doesn’t need a FWD signal. Also, I couldn’t hear any relay click.


As you have set it it is Active High. If you change that to Active Low and restart Mach (so the ESS uploads the new firmware setting) does the pin
change state?.



I will check that in the morning.



Do you intend, need or require a reversing spindle? I spent quite a bit of time shagging around trying to get the spindle to reverse......and then never bloody used it!
If you don't require a reversing spindle then consider using Machs OSIG_SPINDLE_ON signal instead of OSIG_SPINDLE_FWD.



I don’t need a reversing spindle. Again, I’m just trying settings that have been examples that I read online .



There are other tricks you can use to test a signal/ESS/BoB. For instance how about assigning Port1Pin14 as an X++ limit output. Then you could flick
the X++ limit switch to test whether your spindles runs or not. Indeed have a look on the MachineDiagnotics tab and you will see a whole bunch of LEDs
tied to certain Mach signals, you could use any of them, noticing that the LED indicates whether Mach is setting/unsetting the signal and whether the
pin of your choice is responding.



All I have running right now are the motors. I don’t have any limit switches hooked up yet. I wanted to get the machine running first.



You have nominated Port1Pin16 as PWM. Have you put a multimeter on the pin to attempt to detect the presence of PWM signal from the ESS?
Note that a multimeter is not the best instrument to determine presence or absence of PWM but short of using an oscilloscope you don't have much choice.



The BOB ( MB3) has built in LEDs on all outputs and inputs, and none come on. Also, I have my VFD powered up and wired to the BOB on the AO and AG ports. I have verified that a 0-10v signal does turn the spindle on. I did this using a remote power supply before wiring up to the BOB.
Where would I even check for PWM? All I can check for is whether 0-10v is coming out of the AO and AG ports on the BOB.

Until you can confirm that both signals are present and responsive to Mach there is little point in chasing them through the BoB to the VFD.

Craig

I have ZERO training in computers, and basic understanding of electronics. I’m a retired Tool Maker and my expertise is machining and fabricating. I have a huge difficulty trying to figure out what these manuals are trying to explain because most of what they are trying to explain is way beyond my understanding and knowledge. Another difficulty is that a lot of guys talk with short forms ( like DRO, OSIG, etc...) and unless one knows what they mean, it gets confusing.
This CNC stuff is catered for hobbiests, so I’m sure I’m not the only one having this level of difficulty. They really need to have better instructions written in layman terms for guys like me without a 4 year degree in computer science.

I will post a picture tomorrow of the machine I’m working on so you have an idea of my setup.

Thanks Craig

[joeavaerage]

Hi Danno,
there is a note on the ESS spindle page that explains what PID is. It is primarily used for when you require active feedback control because you have a demand
for a very stable spindle speed, especially single point lathe threading.

You need an encoder for feedback to to the ESS in order for it to work. If you have no encoder then disable PID, you CAN'T use it.

The next question is what data Mach uses to populate the spindle speed rpm DRO. If you have an index pulse generator attached to your spindle then the ESS
can count the index pulses, relay that to Mach and Mach can display the ACTUAL spindle rpm. If you don't have a spindle index pulse generator then Mach CANNOT use that strategy
to populate the DRO. It will probably just populate it with your commanded speed or some other guess. What it can't do is tell you what the speed is because its got
no way of measuring it.

Unless there is a fault or the spindle is very heavily loaded the commanded and actual speeds should be 5% or closer anyway so is no drama.

When I asked about whether pin 14 changes state, it is a means of testing that Mach is correctly setting the signal on , communicating it to the ESS and the ESS is
faithfully reproducing the signal at pin 14. If it is then we have to chase the signal through the BoB to find why its not turning on the relay. I suppose the LED on the output (pin 14)
effectively tells you what a multimeter would, namely whether pin 14 changes state.

You say that you cant see the LED come on, that suggests either you are doing something such that Mach is NOT setting then signal active OR its not being communicated to
and through the ESS. It for that reason I suggested that you use an alternate signal, one that you do have active control of like a limit or home switch, and use Machs
corresponding output signal to turn on the relay.

You can check for PWM signal with a multimeter at the output of the ESS before it diasppears into the BoB. There again its trying to check whether Mach is producing
a signal and whether the ESS is reproducing it.

Your not the only person who struggles with this stuff, but it is what it is. Are you going to get creative and devise the means of testing each and every part until you get a result?
Just hooking stuff up (Mach, ESS, BoB and VFD) and throwing your hands up when it doesn't work is not going to solve the problem. You need to devise tests for each component
in turn and solve each problem as you encounter it.

Craig

[Danno]

Good news!

I was able to finally get the VFD to work. No wonder I had such a difficult time. All the info I've been reading is either wrong or pertains to Mach3 and/or a different BOB.

IMO, the only way to get the 0-10V PWM to work is by assigning the analog output to port 3 pin 17. Not once has this been mentioned anywhere which is why it was so frustrating. I also assigned one of the onboard relays for the spindle ON. I used port2 pin 1 for this.
I blame myself because I should have done my own experimentation instead of relying on online examples.

As I mentioned before, the manufacturers really need to get their butts in gear and put out better manuals that are up to date with more real world examples to help people just starting out in this hobby.

Craig, you are totally correct that I really don't need the spindle to be controlled by PWM. I just realized that the Mach4 screen doesn't even have an RPM DRO, and besides, it would only show the programmed S#### RPM and not actual RPM of the spindle. Its one of those things that I didn't need, but I wanted to figure out how to make it work.

Limit switches are next.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

As I mentioned before, the manufacturers really need to get their butts in gear and put out better manuals that are up to date with more real world examples to help people just starting out in this hobby.

Do you recall my earlier post:

You will no doubt have seen and heard people complain that 'Mach4 is so hard...' or 'There is no documentation....' or 'There is no backup.....'or....and the list goes
on. There is in fact documentation,

In this case you did not read and study the information that you had about your BoB. Following blindly online examples does not work, you have to decide what and how
to apply consistent with your machine........and your machine IS unique.

Craig

[Danno]

Hi,



Do you recall my earlier post:

I do, but searching the web for answers is like finding a needle in a hay stack. I now own a fabricating shop, and if I designed and manufactured a certain product, I would want my customers to have the best and LATEST technical information available to them. You have to remember, most of the stuff we are playing with will be used by hobbiests at home, and not all of them have an engineering background.


In this case you did not read and study the information that you had about your BoB. Following blindly online examples does not work, you have to decide what and how
to apply consistent with your machine........and your machine IS unique.

I did read the manual, but because I have a mechanical background, most of what I read was over my head.
My Daughter is a Nurse and if I gave you one of her texbooks to read you would most likely be as lost as I was reading manuals on CNC. Why? because it's not your background.


Craig

I really appreciate your help.
Thank-you

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
by virtue of you building your own machine you have assumed the role of builder and integrator, whatever your background.
Therefore you will, perforce, be required to look at the manual for your BoB digest and use the information it contains,

I did not know any of this stuff when I started either, I just had to learn it just as you are, and yes its a challenge. You may be of the opinion
that the BoB manufacturer did not provide the info.....but thats wrong....its right there in the screen shot you posted. Because you do not
have an electrotechnical background you overlooked it, but guess what, its your machine and its up to you to integrate the different parts
together. You simply cannot overlook information that is provided.

Craig