Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

[mactec54]

All good information, thank you.

I am still trying to determine what the source of my "noise" is. It could be radiated or it could be conductive. Assuming that the shield on the spindle cable is effective, then I would be looking elsewhere for the source of the noise.

I could spend days and tons of money shielding all my cables differently, only to discover that all the noise problems I have are conductive.

In other words, I am trying to avoid a shotgun approach by changing everything.

You don't need all the cables to be shielded

A VFD Input Power Filter would be the first place to start, I would place an aluminum shield between the VFD and the Breakout Boards, ( L shape so it goes out over the Breakout Boards and down the side of the VFD this has to be mounted Metal to Metal ( Paint Free ) in the cabinet to be Grounded also ) Ground Points Paint Free metal to metal contact is a must for all Ground and Shields termination, so not much cost involved to do what already should have been done

Twist cable Pairs can help with noise reduction, you have coiled up wire this is noise generating and should be eliminated

The most Noise will be from the VFD Drive, Power supplies cables, motors cables, Relays and any switching devices

[wmgeorge]

All good information, thank you.

I am still trying to determine what the source of my "noise" is. It could be radiated or it could be conductive. Assuming that the shield on the spindle cable is effective, then I would be looking elsewhere for the source of the noise.

I could spend days and tons of money shielding all my cables differently, only to discover that all the noise problems I have are conductive.

In other words, I am trying to avoid a shotgun approach by changing everything.

My Hitachi VFD is mounted in another metal enclosure, everything including the shield and ground on the VFD cable is grounded. My shields are all soldered and grounded. The spindle motor is grounded directly to a grounding conductor in the cable and goes directly back to the VFD enclosure. Zero noise and issues and I double checked with my digital oscilloscope. Contrary to what you see posted here soldering is an accepted method when dealing with RF and grounding. All my connections to the grounding shields are soldered and I have Zero issues. Soldering for RF and EMF grounds is common accepted practice and has been for many years. Having been involved in building radio transmitters and receivers I did a lot of that work. In the military it was Mil spec and had to be done correctly in order for the air craft to be flown. Those of us who served know what that is.

Correction: It was not Mil spec it was a USAF TO (Technical Order) which covered ALL air craft repair procedures for Everything, even to the part numbers of the terminals, wire and solder but much more detail. There were TO's for everything on the air craft, including inspections.

[ericks]

My VFD is in the same enclosure as all the other electronics/equipment with no interference issues. It's all about how you place the components and cabling. I also never use the computer to supply power to external electronics...
Currently i am busy designing/building a very compact control panel with everything in one enclosure....don't expect issues if i follow proven guidelines...

[wmgeorge]

My VFD is in the same enclosure as all the other electronics/equipment with no interference issues. It's all about how you place the components and cabling. I also never use the computer to supply power to external electronics...
Currently i am busy designing/building a very compact control panel with everything in one enclosure....don't expect issues if i follow proven guidelines...

: ) Mine is in a separate enclosure because my control box was filled!!

[ericks]

Yes it can be a challenge to fit everything in

[Chris D]

During the drive into work this morning I came upon a thought that might help me to both identify the source and eliminate the source. Please correct me if I am wrong about this....

Seeing as the noise is only present when the spindle is actually running, it would be safe to assume the noise is coming from the spindle drive, cables, or motor and propagating throughout the electrical enclosure where everything is located.

A simple test would be to remove the drive completely from the electrical enclosure.

This would be rather simple to do...

* Unwire the drive from the enclosure including spindle cable, power cable, and logic control wires.
* Close up the electrical enclosure so that it, and everything in it is shielded.
* Wire up the VFD straight to the 220V outlet.
* Wire the motor directly to the VFD - avoiding any connectors etc. and ground the shield to earth (same as VFD)
* Add a POT to the VFD to control speed and add a Toggle switch to the VFD to control the On/Off.

With all of that done, I want to believe that the spindle and its related items are isolated from the rest of the CNC and the only way I can get noise into the electrical cabinet (or the rest of the CNC) is via Radiated noise - most likely coming from the spindle cable. Accordingly, I would need to obtain a better shielded cable and perform better shield grounding practices to solve the specific problem.

If it ends up being that I need to put the VFD in a separate enclosure, I am fine with that. I am sure I can find a place to put it. I would prefer to keep it with all the other electronics but not if I am constantly battling noise issues.

Assuming I put the VFD in another cabinet and that isolates the noise, the next major stepping stone is to figure out how to control it from the CNC. Doing that requires some control wires. The FOR signal can be isolated easily with an optocoupler. The 0 ~ 10V signal being analog would also need to be isolated but I have no idea how that is done?

Let me know your thoughts on this, am I thinking correctly in my efforts to resolve this problem, efficiently and affordably?

Thanks for all the help everyone, it is very much appreciated!

Chris D.

[Chris D]

Question about line filter.

My drive is 220v single phase for the 2.2kw spindle.

Would this be the correct line filter to get

https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...-_30a/res90f10

Thanks !

Chris

[Chris D]

Hmmm,

Looking at the connections printed on the top of the filter's case, I am a bit confused.

On the LINE side it has what appears to be 3 connection points
L
N
PE

On the LOAD side is has what appears to be 2 connection points
L1
N1


My 220 single phase has 3 wires coming from the outlet, I believe it is:
L1
L2
Ground / Neutral

How would I wire up that line filter?

Chris

[mactec54]

My Hitachi VFD is mounted in another metal enclosure, everything including the shield and ground on the VFD cable is grounded. My shields are all soldered and grounded. The spindle motor is grounded directly to a grounding conductor in the cable and goes directly back to the VFD enclosure. Zero noise and issues and I double checked with my digital oscilloscope. Contrary to what you see posted here soldering is an accepted method when dealing with RF and grounding. All my connections to the grounding shields are soldered and I have Zero issues. Soldering for RF and EMF grounds is common accepted practice and has been for many years. Having been involved in building radio transmitters and receivers I did a lot of that work. In the military it was Mil spec and had to be done correctly in order for the air craft to be flown. Those of us who served know what that is.

Soldering is not an accepted method, in the military, and it is not a Mil spec, I don't no why you keep making this stuff up

Why you don't have any problems is because you have a VFD in a separate cabinet and a system that you did not build


All the military plugs and wire termination use compression and crimp fittings for them to be Mil spec here is a snip of how it was done back in the day when you where there, this was ok but is much better today

[wmgeorge]

Hmmm,

Looking at the connections printed on the top of the filter's case, I am a bit confused.

On the LINE side it has what appears to be 3 connection points
L
N
PE

On the LOAD side is has what appears to be 2 connection points
L1
N1


My 220 single phase has 3 wires coming from the outlet, I believe it is:
L1
L2
Ground / Neutral

How would I wire up that line filter?

Chris

I do not have a Line filter on mine and no issues. I would do the moving away from other devices first before spending any more money. Your 240 incoming Line should be L1 & L2 and equipment GND no neutral needed just the equipment ground. Your VFD will be electrically noisy and the output of course. On your filter, it is 240 volt rated correct? I would read the instructions that came with it for the hook up details rather than relying on some guy on the internet. Or call /email where you purchased from.

[mactec54]

Question about line filter.

My drive is 220v single phase for the 2.2kw spindle.

Would this be the correct line filter to get

https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...-_30a/res90f10

Thanks !

Chris

No you want a 30Amp to match the input power requirements for the VFD Drive Here are 2 you could look at

Uxcell AC 115/250V 30A CW4E-30A-S Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter

SCHAFFNER FN2020-30-08 EMI POWER LINE FILTER, 30A, 870UA

[mactec54]

Hmmm,

Looking at the connections printed on the top of the filter's case, I am a bit confused.

On the LINE side it has what appears to be 3 connection points
L
N
PE

On the LOAD side is has what appears to be 2 connection points
L1
N1


My 220 single phase has 3 wires coming from the outlet, I believe it is:
L1
L2
Ground / Neutral

How would I wire up that line filter?

Chris

Easy L1 and N1 is the same going straight through the Filter Ground must be connect to the filter and if it does not have a Ground post on the output side, which it does not need, Ground then connects to the input side of the filter then to the VFD Drive


so if you see

L=L1

N=L2

PE =Ground

You don't use or have a Neutral for NA 240v single phase, so don't get it confused with Ground both serve a different purpose

[mactec54]

Hmmm,

Looking at the connections printed on the top of the filter's case, I am a bit confused.

On the LINE side it has what appears to be 3 connection points
L
N
PE

On the LOAD side is has what appears to be 2 connection points
L1
N1


My 220 single phase has 3 wires coming from the outlet, I believe it is:
L1
L2
Ground / Neutral

How would I wire up that line filter?

Chris

Easy L1 and N1 is the same going straight through the Filter Ground must be connect to the filter and if it does not have on the output side which it does not need, Ground then connects to the input side of the filter then to the VFD Drive


so if you see

L=L1

N=L2

PE =Ground

You don't use or have a Neutral for NA 240v single phase, so don't get it confused with Ground both serve a different purpose

- - - Updated - - -

Question about line filter.

My drive is 220v single phase for the 2.2kw spindle.

Would this be the correct line filter to get

https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...-_30a/res90f10

Thanks !

Chris

No you want a 30Amp to match the input power requirements for the VFD Drive Here are 2 you could look at

Uxcell AC 115/250V 30A CW4E-30A-S Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter

SCHAFFNER FN2020-30-08 EMI POWER LINE FILTER, 30A, 870UA

[mactec54]

Question about line filter.

My drive is 220v single phase for the 2.2kw spindle.

Would this be the correct line filter to get

https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...-_30a/res90f10

Thanks !

Chris

No you want a 30Amp to match the input power requirements for the VFD Drive Here are 2 you could look at

Uxcell AC 115/250V 30A CW4E-30A-S Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter

SCHAFFNER FN2020-30-08 EMI POWER LINE FILTER, 30A, 870UA

- - - Updated - - -

My Hitachi VFD is mounted in another metal enclosure, everything including the shield and ground on the VFD cable is grounded. My shields are all soldered and grounded. The spindle motor is grounded directly to a grounding conductor in the cable and goes directly back to the VFD enclosure. Zero noise and issues and I double checked with my digital oscilloscope. Contrary to what you see posted here soldering is an accepted method when dealing with RF and grounding. All my connections to the grounding shields are soldered and I have Zero issues. Soldering for RF and EMF grounds is common accepted practice and has been for many years. Having been involved in building radio transmitters and receivers I did a lot of that work. In the military it was Mil spec and had to be done correctly in order for the air craft to be flown. Those of us who served know what that is.

Soldering is not an accepted method, in the military, and it is not a Mil spec, I don't no why you keep making this stuff up

Why you don't have any problems is because you have a VFD in a separate cabinet and a system that you did not build


All the military plugs and wire termination use compression and crimp fittings for them to be Mil spec here is a snip of how it was done back in the day when you where there, this was ok but is much better today

[Chris D]

Well, not sure if it will or will not help, but for $21.00 I will have this one: Uxcell AC 115/250V 30A CW4E-30A-S Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter tomorrow.

With the scope connected to the system at the I-PAC connections, I can easily see and measure the spikes that are causing the problems. If this filter does anything, I should see it on scope.

Chris D.

[wmgeorge]

See my other post about soldering

[mactec54]

See my other post about soldering

Yes we saw it under special circumstances soldering may be permitted

[mactec54]

Well, not sure if it will or will not help, but for $21.00 I will have this one: Uxcell AC 115/250V 30A CW4E-30A-S Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter tomorrow.

With the scope connected to the system at the I-PAC connections, I can easily see and measure the spikes that are causing the problems. If this filter does anything, I should see it on scope.

Chris D.

It will be a start in the right direction

[wmgeorge]

With the scope connected to the system at the I-PAC connections, I can easily see and measure the spikes that are causing the problems. If this filter does anything, I should see it on scope.


What kind of scope do you have Chris? Thats the way I checked mine so I know its clean. I had not used a scope for a long time and I had to get up to speed again with my new digital one, dual trace.

[Chris D]

I have a siglent, SDS1102CML+ scope, it is digital and can do a whole lot more than I can!

I use it about once a year, usually for measuring frequency of signals coming out of a microcontroller etc.

Chris