Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play


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Thread: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

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    Default Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    Folks: I have been running Mach3 with CNCRP plug and play electronics on a FLA automation CNC for several years. I use Rhino6/MADCAM. Things work well with a few oddities. I do not do scripting or other advanced operations but lightly edit the Gcode with annotation. Is there any OPERATIONAL advantage of using Mach4? I downloaded Mach4 for trial and it certainly looks nicer. But does it lead to better cuts (smoother, faster, more reliable et al?). If not I see no reason to switch to Mach4.

    Thanks

    JRS_CNC

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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    I use both, Mach3 on a plasma cutter and Mach4 on a milling machine.
    Mach4 doesn't use the parallel port, and seems to process instructions
    faster.
    Both work well for me, Mach4 is easier to edit screens.
    Larry



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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    Hi,

    do not do scripting or other advanced operations but lightly edit the Gcode with annotation. Is there any OPERATIONAL advantage of using Mach4? I downloaded Mach4 for trial and it certainly looks nicer. But does it lead to better cuts (smoother, faster, more reliable et al?). If not I see no reason to switch to Mach4.
    The short answer is NO. Mach4 does not cut any faster or better than Mach3.

    The longer answer is not quite so clear cut.

    I personally find that Mach4 is much more stable and bug free by comparison to Mach3.....not that Mach3 is TOO bad.....just Mach4 is better.

    To use Mach4 all but requires an external motion controller like an Ethernet SmoothStepper. An external controller such as the ESS does produce faster and smoother pulse
    streams than a parallel port, and so could potentially offer faster and smoother cuts. This advantage is to do with having a capable external controller....not Mach.
    Thus if you used an ESS you could expect the same improvement whether you run Mach3 OR Mach4.

    All development on Mach3 ceased six years ago. There may well come a time when Mach3 ceases to work. About a year ago Microsoft bought out a set of updates to both
    Windows7 (now deprecated) and Windows10 that stopped Mach3. New Fangled Solutions had no answer. Another company, Mach Motion, made a fix and then shared it with
    the Mach community. If it had not been for Mach Motion's generosity many Mach3 users would have been screwed.

    Mach4 is however under active development and this problem of Windows updates screwing with Mach4 is handled by New Fangled Solutions directly.

    There are a few features that Mach4 has which are entirely new which may appeal. Firstly there is a script based THC feature for plasma tables. To date ALL Mach
    THC solutions required realtime hardware to enact as any script based solution was TOO SLOW to get reasonable THC performance. Mach4 is a much faster and leaner
    control program and for the first time a fully scripted solution is available. Its close loop bandwidth is still pretty low, 10-20Hz, but still adequate for all but the most demanding
    THC applications.

    Another feature is the mc.SurfaceMapWizard. This allows you to probe the bed of your machine (or alternately a part in it) and Mach will thereafter adjust the Z axis such that
    the bed appears 'flat' without any further input from you. If you make circuit boards or do any engraving for which Z axis height is critical then you want this feature.

    The other advantages of Mach4 is the ease and facility with which you can customize you setup, be it fancy motions and/or screens. This facility/capability is being used
    extensively by OEMs to build their own products. Given that you don't do any scripting or require screen editing then this new capability of Mach4 is of little interest to
    you but nice to have.

    Craig

    Last edited by joeavaerage; 02-15-2020 at 03:37 PM.


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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    I find it interesting that since Mach3 is out of support from Artsoft they are still charging full rate for the license? Even 6 years after they called it dead and everyone needed to spend more money to switch over to Mach4. Then they get upset when the Chinese patch it up and send it out with their machines. So why don't they license to people who Will update and support it?

    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. Kimber 1911 45ACP


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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    They likely make more money from Mach3 then they do from Mach4, due to the thousands of Chinese machines sold with Mach3

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    The short answer is NO. Mach4 does not cut any faster or better than Mach3
    Mach4 *should* potentially cut better than Mach3, as Mach3 has some known issues with CV mode at higher speeds. Most people may not see it, but Mach3 does have some issues.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I find it interesting that since Mach3 is out of support from Artsoft they are still charging full rate for the license? Even 6 years after they called it dead and everyone needed to spend more money to switch over to Mach4. Then they get upset when the Chinese patch it up and send it out with their machines. So why don't they license to people who Will update and support it?
    Hi,
    the answers to your questions concern the development history of Mach3. While it started as a project by Art Fennerty many people contributed code over a period
    of years. There was never really a development strategy or structure. Mach3 became and still is one big hodge-podge of code.

    So many features of Mach3 rely on quirks, if not outright bugs, of other pieces of code. If you fix one bit you break other bits. In short maintaing the code base is very
    difficult. Much of the original code was written for the Microsoft Studio 2003 compiler.....and so much has changed with Microsoft Studio over the years the code
    won't compile with later versions.

    For this reason is was decided to write a new program that we know as Mach4. There is a definite structure to Mach4 with separate modules doing
    different things. If a module has a fault it can be worked on WITHOUT breaking the rest of the modules. In short, from a development perspective,
    Mach4 is VASTLY superior to Mach3 and is, by comparison at least, bugfree.

    New Fangled Solutions have a problem. Mach3 is a behemoth with a huge fan base and it seems that new users still prefer it despite its bugs.
    You ask 'why they still sell it at full price?'....ask yourself 'why should they not sell it at full price if there is the demand?'

    If they discounted it as you seem to be suggesting would that not encourage new users to what is a sunset product?

    You also ask 'why they don't sell or license it to another company?'.....ask yourself 'why would I sell or license my legacy product that is still
    selling very well thankyou very much?'

    A while back there were a number of Windows updates issued by Microsoft that had the effect of breaking Mach3. Another company (Mach Motion)
    whom obviously have the source code devised a fix. They shared it with the Mach3 community free.

    As I posted earlier several Chinese manufacturers must have the Mach3 source code because they have modified it to work with their hardware
    and then proceed to peddle pirate copies.

    It is clear that the source code is 'out there' already, and the Chinese at least don't seem to give a damn about software piracy.

    NFS is a commercial entity and has real employees who need real money to pay wages/salaries. Are you suggesting that because the main Mach3
    user base are hobbyists that NFS should do it for free or at a discount? How would NFS pay its people?

    If you want free and open source software......there is LinuxCNC.

    Craig



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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    Well if the Chinese programmers are smart enough to fix the source and make it work with their hardware, why doesn't Artsoft just license it to them? Instead of complaining about someone who is smarter than they are "stealing" what really turns out to be really open source. The Chinese could then re-sell the repaired version and pay a royalty . I like Mach4 and I do not mind paying for it and M3 but ArtSoft seems shortsighted.

    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. Kimber 1911 45ACP


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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    Hi,
    the Chinese are famous for flouting intellectual property....expect the Chinese to pay a royalty is a dream.

    The Chinese could then re-sell the repaired version and pay a royalty
    REPAIRED.....what a joke....they can't or can't be bothered to design their hardware to do things like G31 probing in ANSI standard fashion so they bodge the
    software. They haven't repaired it they have deliberately broken it.

    NFS are within their rights to sell Mach3 as agressively as they can and defend as best as possible their intellectual property. What is it about
    NFS and/or Mach3 that you deem is not worthy of commercial exploitation like AutoDesk say?

    Craig



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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    Deleted

    Last edited by wmgeorge; 03-26-2020 at 05:40 PM.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. Kimber 1911 45ACP


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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    Hi,
    you might be interested as to my own purchasing choices when it comes to CNC parts. As most of you know I live in New Zealand
    which has a small manufacturing base and as such there is not a home grown CNC parts industry.

    I am involved in a new mill build and am still gathering the parts and materials. This is the source and approx value of the components
    either in hand, underway or planned:

    6 x 20mm THK HSR linear rails and cars, manufactured in Korea, value (inc shipping) $900USD (in hand)
    3 x THK 32mm x 5mm C5 BNFN double nut ballscrews, manufactured in Japan, sold 2nd hand from Korea, value (inc shipping) $1000USD. (in hand)
    3 x 750W Delta servos/drives/cables, Taiwanese brand manufactured in China, sold ex China value (inc shipping) $1800USD (in hand)
    3 x 80kg Cast iron mill axis beds, own design, manufactured in NZ, value $1800USD (pending)
    1 x 200kg SG Cast iron mill frame, own design, manufactured in NZ, value $1800USD (projected)
    1 x ESS manufactured US, value $180USD. (existing, in hand).
    2 x MB2 BoB's, designed and manufactured in Austrailia, value $110 USD (existing in hand)
    1 x Mach4 license, manufactured US, value $200 (existing, in hand)
    1 x Mechatron 750W air cooled 24000 rpm spindle, manufactured Germany, value (inc shipping) $500USD. (existing, in hand)
    1 x Delta 750W VFD, manufactured China, value (inc shipping) $150USD. (existing, in hand)
    1 x 1.8kW Allen Bradley AC servo/drive powered spindle, own design and manufacture in NZ with parts from US,Japan and Switzerland value $1500USD. (existing in hand)

    As you can see I am an 'equal opportunity buyer', I don't really care where it comes from, what I do demand is that it be the best quality and value
    I can afford. You might also be surprised that Chinese made Delta products have found their way onto my list, but reason is simple.....good quality
    at a reasonable price. You will not be surprised that NO cheap Chinese made CNC motion controllers have made my list....the backup is non existent.
    The ESS on the other hand is good quality and superb backup and therefore in the 'quality/backup' stakes is the best and cheapest controller on the market,
    my opinion of course.

    Craig



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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    the Chinese are famous for flouting intellectual property....expect the Chinese to pay a royalty is a dream.



    REPAIRED.....what a joke....they can't or can't be bothered to design their hardware to do things like G31 probing in ANSI standard fashion so they bodge the
    software. They haven't repaired it they have deliberately broken it.

    NFS are within their rights to sell Mach3 as agressively as they can and defend as best as possible their intellectual property. What is it about
    NFS and/or Mach3 that you deem is not worthy of commercial exploitation like AutoDesk say?

    Craig
    The Chinese only make a plugin's for there boards, that works with Mach3 and some now have Mach4 plugin as well they don't need the source code to make a plugin anyone with some good coding skills can make plugin's for any control, so they have not stolen anything by making Plugin's this only help New Fangled Solutions with more sales, that is why Mach3 will live on for a long time to come

    They don't have the source code they only cracked the license part requirement, which can be done to almost any software, in most cases what they ship is the same as what you can down load from New Fangled Solutions with a 500 line G-Code limit because the cracked versions don't work with all the features

    Probing works fine if you have the right plugin there are many examples out there for Mach3, if you are talking about Mach4 that is different

    Mach3 or 4 it is written to a RS-274-D. or a later revision of this, it is the Industry standard and is not likely to change any time soon, so you appear to be out of touch with reality

    You talk like you know Art personally I do and have worked with him, what you are saying about Mach3 is total rubbish

    For your uninformed information MS Windows 10 works as downloaded, which I use, and have never had any problems with running it, even on a tablet which I run Mach3 UCCNC Eding and other controls on

    It boils down if it does not do what you want then get something else that suits your needs

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    Hi,

    The Chinese only make a plugin's for there boards, that works with Mach3 and some now have Mach4 plugin as well they don't need the source code to make a plugin anyone with some good coding skills can make plugin's for any control, so they have not stolen anything by making Plugin's this only help New Fangled Solutions with more sales, that is why Mach3 will live on for a long time to come
    You are correct, they can and do write plugins for their boards and is not only allowed but encouraged. As you say the more Mach plugins and boards
    the better for NFS.

    Several Chinese manufacturers have bodged Mach3 software in order for their controller to work. If you attempt to run their controller with a genuine and
    licensed copy of Mach3 homing and probing fail. There are plenty of posts of this nature on the Mach3 forum.

    Mach3 or 4 it is written to a RS-274-D. or a later revision of this, it is the Industry standard and is not likely to change any time soon, so you appear to be out of touch with reality
    If indeed Mach3 is written to be (broadly) compliant with that standard then the Chinese makers have departed from it....a backwards step I would have thought.
    There again there are plenty of posts on the Mach3 forum about the faults/bugs introduced by pirate copies of Mach3.

    XHC is the only Chinese manufacturer claiming to have a Mach4 ready plugin. If you follow the Mach4 forum you will know that the plugin is that buggy
    that no-one uses it. XHC have been offered assistance and the SDK by NFS but XHC has for reasons of their own chosen not to partake. Consequently
    the only Chinese made Mach4 ready controller is junk.

    For your uninformed information MS Windows 10 works as downloaded, which I use, and have never had any problems with running it, even on a tablet which I run Mach3 UCCNC Eding and other controls on
    This is the first post in the a new thread, this poster is, or was at that time, an employee of NFS:

    Hello all,

    It was brought to our attention today that a new Windows 10 update is causing problems with Mach3. Microsoft is certainly causing me a lot of headaches this past month, but I hope this post will save you from some. If Windows 10 wants to do a "feature update" to version 1803 do not let it. You want to stay on build 1709. If the update goes through and you find that Mach3 will not load beyond the splash screen, the update probably went through and you'll have to roll it back. It's an easy process but it is a bit time consuming. Go into your settings and find the Updates page. Click 'View installed update history' then 'Recovery options.' That sounds a bit dramatic; you're really just rolling back to a slightly older version of Windows 10. On the next screen, you'll have the option to restore Windows 10 to an older version. Agree to the prompts and then be prepared to wait while your system un-updates.

    As always, we recommend running Mach3 without automatic updates and offline if at all possible. I'll keep you posted with any new information I might have.

    Happy CNCing,
    Bryanna
    All 78 posts can be read here:

    https://www.machsupport.com/forum/in...?topic=37291.0

    So there is no doubt some issues creeping in with Mach3, it was written years before Windows 10. None the less with some assistance from Mach Motion
    Mach3 continues to run on the latest builds of Windows 10.

    Craig



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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    So there is no doubt some issues creeping in with Mach3, it was written years before Windows 10. None the less with some assistance from Mach Motion
    Mach3 continues to run on the latest builds of Windows 10.


    But in spite of the outdated code and ArtSoft not updating Mach3 they are perfectly willing to let an outside company update it and keep it on the market for the full licensing fee, paid to them (ArtSoft).

    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. Kimber 1911 45ACP


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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,



    You are correct, they can and do write plugins for their boards and is not only allowed but encouraged. As you say the more Mach plugins and boards
    the better for NFS.

    Several Chinese manufacturers have bodged Mach3 software in order for their controller to work. If you attempt to run their controller with a genuine and
    licensed copy of Mach3 homing and probing fail. There are plenty of posts of this nature on the Mach3 forum.



    If indeed Mach3 is written to be (broadly) compliant with that standard then the Chinese makers have departed from it....a backwards step I would have thought.
    There again there are plenty of posts on the Mach3 forum about the faults/bugs introduced by pirate copies of Mach3.

    XHC is the only Chinese manufacturer claiming to have a Mach4 ready plugin. If you follow the Mach4 forum you will know that the plugin is that buggy
    that no-one uses it. XHC have been offered assistance and the SDK by NFS but XHC has for reasons of their own chosen not to partake. Consequently
    the only Chinese made Mach4 ready controller is junk.



    This is the first post in the a new thread, this poster is, or was at that time, an employee of NFS:



    All 78 posts can be read here:

    https://www.machsupport.com/forum/in...?topic=37291.0

    So there is no doubt some issues creeping in with Mach3, it was written years before Windows 10. None the less with some assistance from Mach Motion
    Mach3 continues to run on the latest builds of Windows 10.

    Craig
    I never read all the hype on the different forums, better things to do than look at uneducated forum posts

    Plugin for Mach4 they all will have it in time, NVUM has one as well I think it is new and I have only seen it advertised

    I knew that some people had problems with Windows 10 from ( 1 ) of the upgrades, I have nothing to do with Mach Motion and my system works just as it did on windows XP so I still don't know what all the problem was I know that one Windows 10 upgrade did have some problems but MS corrected that not long after that upgrade as it affected a lot of different software packages not just Mach3, so what ever Mach Motion did was in vane as it is not needed to run Mach3 on Windows 10

    For those that have problems at any time instead of panic, you can always go back to a previous version operating system if you found you where having any kind of problem they will in most cases fix any major problems, but when software gets too old you should not expect it to run on a modern platform

    Last edited by mactec54; 03-27-2020 at 10:13 AM. Reason: added more content
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    Selling Mach3 at a discount could reduce the sales of Mach4. Mach4 is what they would rather sell.
    I'm still waiting for MasterCam 8 to be discounted to $300 or show up in remainder bins. Hmm... best not give China any ideas.

    Anyone who says "It only goes together one way" has no imagination.


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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    Quote Originally Posted by cyclestart View Post
    Selling Mach3 at a discount could reduce the sales of Mach4. Mach4 is what they would rather sell.
    I'm still waiting for MasterCam 8 to be discounted to $300 or show up in remainder bins. Hmm... best not give China any ideas.
    You don't have to go to China to find what you are looking for look for use hacked or cracked and you will find it

    Mactec54


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    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    I knew that some people had problems with Windows 10 from ( 1 ) of the upgrades, I have nothing to do with Mach Motion and my system works just as it did on windows XP so I still don't know what all the problem was I know that one Windows 10 upgrade did have some problems but MS corrected that not long after that upgrade as it affected a lot of different software packages not just Mach3, so what ever Mach Motion did was in vane as it is not needed to run Mach3 on Windows 10
    The version of Mach3 on Artsoft's website is patched to work with Windows 10.

    Gerry

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    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    The version of Mach3 on Artsoft's website is patched to work with Windows 10.
    Good to know, I don't have that down load so may add another SD card with it on, I have all may control software saved on SD cards so always have a backup of all the different controls I have, so if I have a problem with any control at anytime I can run from the SD card or reinstall the software

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play-micro-sd-software-jpg  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Mach4 vs mach3 with cncrp plug and play

    Mach3 turns a typical computer into a CNC machine controller. It is very rich in features and provides a great value to those needing a CNC control package. Mach3 works on most Windows PC’s to control the motion of motors (stepper & servo) by processing G-Code. While comprising many advanced features, it is the most intuitive CNC control software available. Mach3 is customizable and has been used for many applications with numerous types of hardware. And now all ChinaCNCzone mini CNC machines such as CNC 3040, CNC 6040, CNC 6090 and mini 5 axes CNC HY 3040, HY 6040 are compatible with mach3 software maturely.

    And Mach4 is our newest version of CNC motion control software. It has three versions such as Mach4 Lite, Mach4 Hobby, and Mach4 Industrial. Now the mini CNC compatible with mach4 such as CNC 6040 and CNC 6090 models are in testing.
    Compared with Mach3 software, Mach4 has below outstanding features:
    Mach4 is the completely new software with less than 1% of the programming code in common with Mach3. It was written from the ground up to be expandable, flexible, and extremely responsive for use with very large files. Mach3 was designed for simple hobby machines and still serves this purpose well. When quality, speed, and the ability to use or learn industrial style controls and methods are what is needed, Mach4 is the correct choice. While there was only one version of Mach3, Mach4 is offered in different versions. Mach4 has been in use on Industrial equipment running constantly for over a year. The standard Mach4 installer will control mills, drills, lathes, and routers. While we are controlling other machine types with our Industrial software, complete hobby solutions with integrated screens and functions have only been completed for these machine types.



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