NEED ADVICE re: Enshu Yuasa AccuMill 1547 with Fanuc 3M - Page 2

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Thread: NEED ADVICE re: Enshu Yuasa AccuMill 1547 with Fanuc 3M

  1. #21
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    I have spent quite a bit of time today with this frustrating machine.

    I re-soldered some .016 wire into the "flag" fuses, thus repairing the three that had blown. So far they have not blown again. But this also did NOT clear up the ongoing problem. For good measure, I tested all the fuses for continuity, and all the "signal" third blades, for an open state. All good.

    I discovered, sort of by accident, that manually pushing the overtravel limit switches for X and Y can SOMETIMES clear the servo overload alarm (but not for long; see below).

    Today the machine was sort of randomly slipping in and out of a few different states.

    In one state, the machine is in the servo overload (01) alarm state, and nothing seems to change that.

    In another state, the servo overload alarm (01) state can sometimes be over-ridden with either the overtravel limit switch on X or Y, or sometimes with the Reset button on the pendant. Usually, this is as far as it gets, because the "not ready alarm" message continues to flash at the bottom of the screen, and nothing else is possible. Sometimes, however, both the overload alarm message AND the "not ready alarm" message will go away for a moment, and when that happens, after a time-lapse of about three seconds, the contactors on both the X and Z (but not Y) velocity control boards will "blip" closed for a second. During this second, one or more servo-motors sound like they are in a "stall." Then, the servo overload (01) alarm message comes back on, sometimes accompanied by the VRDY OFF (02) alarm message.

    Once, today, I was holding the jog toggle switch for X while the contactors "blipped", and amazingly enough the X axis actually moved about 1.100" before the alarm messages came back on and the machine became frozen again. I have not been able to replicate that movement.

    Also, the spindle now turns on and off.

    It all seems really random to me.

    Does all this mean anything to anyone?
    Are there still qualified service personnel for a machine like this?
    Should I start saving up for a new controller, or a new mill?

    Thank you,
    Christian



  2. #22
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    Default Enshu problems

    Christian,

    I looks like at some point in the past the machine has been phased incorrectly. Now, if the spindle is running the correct direction, that problem is solved. Fanuc SCR drives dislike two things more than anything else:

    1) Being run with reversed phasing (They blow fuses or sometimes scr's when phased incorrectly, even for a few seconds).
    2) Being run on a phase converter.

    I've been following this thread for awhile, but without re reading it all again, I'm not sure if you've mentioned if you have good three phase here or a phase converter.

    This is a good control, and these are good drives. Parts are still out there.

    Hang in there.

    Warren
    www.uptimecorp.com



  3. #23
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    Well, the machine was in fact phased incorrectly. I was confused by the fact that it currently has a reverse-helix end mill in it. Anyway, that is sorted out now.

    But it didn't change anything.

    And, it IS running on a phase converter. However, I have now tried it on two different phase converters, with identical results. Both phase converters put out voltages that vary across a pretty wide range.... I could spend a bunch of cash on a new one that puts out more even voltages, but I am very hesitant to do that without knowing that it will solve anything.

    For now, I am out of ideas.



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    Default Phase converter 101

    Christian,
    Well, the phase converter is the culprit here. Your machine has SCR drives. SCRs, by nature need near perfect sine waves (like your utility would furnish) to operate properly. In your case, they need to be spaced 120 degrees apart, and they need to be either running at a 50 or 60 Hz. There is a jumper on the drive that selects this.
    Phase converters work well for powering 3 phase induction motors and all kinds of inverter drives that are not very particular about the phase spacing. Even so, due to their imperfect output, an induction motor cannot be run at its full capacity. Usually, that is not an issue. Phase converters use the two legs of your 220V single phase (which are 180 degrees apart) and attempt to create a third phase spaced somewhere in between. Induction motors can function. Inverters that just use the 3 phase to pump up a capacitor bank could care less. SCRs care, A LOT!
    There really isn't a good solution here, except to replace the SCR units with PWM type drives (such as those made by Advanced Motion, www.a-m-c.com) The old motors would work OK.
    It might be good to just consider trading up to a newer machine that isn't phase sensitive.
    Call me if you want to discuss it more. I've been through this many, many times.

    Warren
    www.uptimecorp.com



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by WGoyer View Post
    Even so, due to their imperfect output, an induction motor cannot be run at its full capacity. Usually, that is not an issue. Phase converters use the two legs of your 220V single phase (which are 180 degrees apart) and attempt to create a third phase spaced somewhere in between.
    They are 180deg because you are only looking at single phase, when you introduce a 3 element, the reference point is shifted to create the 120deg phase angle between each.
    This is a pic of home made RPC.
    Al.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NEED ADVICE re: Enshu Yuasa AccuMill 1547 with Fanuc 3M-frw-5-jpg  
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

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    I'm slightly confused....

    Al, are you saying that Warren is not correct in his thinking about the phase converter?

    It IS true that I successfully powered up this exact mill using the exact same phase converter, when living in Los Angeles about seven years ago. So that does call Warren's theory into question.

    It is also true, however, that the utility power I get here in rural northern New Mexico sucks insofar as it goes out pretty frequently, and is typically quite high (between 243 VAC and 258 VAC, more or less). For all I know, the power might suck in other more subtle ways, too.

    If Warren is correct in his theory about the SCR drives not being able to tolerate the phase converter (possibly exacerbated by the crappy power), then that is significantly bad news for me. It's bad news because, while my cash-flow was pretty good back when I paid $6K for this mill back in LA seven years ago, my cash-flow is next to nothing now. I was hoping to get this mill running as a way to start generating a little cash. But I certainly can't imagine dumping this mill for a grand or two and paying upwards of $5K for a better one. I certainly won't get a tool changer on that budget!

    Are there better phase converters that might work?
    Are there power-conditioning transformers (or something like that) which might make the SCR drives happier?
    What kind of costs are involved in swapping to PWM drives?
    Another option, I suppose, is a new controller, but there's that whole cost issue again....

    Thanks for your help everyone...
    I very much appreciate it.
    -Christian



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    Hello Christian , you people always made me feel a little puzzled, seems you meet some problem and always can't find a good solution to solved it finally; why not get contact with Fanuc control company? you buy machine with Fanuc 3M controls, so you have all right to get technical support from Fanuc; but why you feel so helpless ? I'm a sales of CNC system, when my customer meet probolem, I always feel worried and wait on-line for giving any support. ..

    Angel
    Chengdu Great Industrial Co., Ltd.


  8. #28
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    If you want to play it safe you can get a true rotary phase convertor that has a three phase generator, you may want to read the US standard report.
    http://www.3phasepower.org/staticphaseconverters.htm
    This will not be affected by input power fluctuations
    What confuses some about home built RPC's is that two legs are derived from 1 phase, 180°, but 2 phases of three phase without reference to any other source is also 1 phase at 180°, untill you introduce a third phase.
    This is why a 3ph motor with one phase missing is said to be 'single phasing'
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Default Enshu problems

    Christian,

    Well, I can't dispute success if you've run this machine on this phase converter. It is true that there are multiple designs.

    I have a Kitamura here that we use for testing and it has this model of VCU. If you want to send us one VCU, we will test it, no charge. I could also describe a way to check for shorted SCRs if you would rather not pack it up.
    As I mentioned, reverse phasing these can damage the SCRs.

    Warren

    www.uptimecorp.com



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    Thanks Warren-

    Very nice offers on your part.

    Although I have considered the idea that one of the VCUs might be the culprit, I have no idea which one it might be. For that reason, the idea of sending one off to you doesn't seem to make that much sense.

    I would be very keen on knowing the method for checking for a shorted SCR. (Maybe in the process I will learn what an SCR is!!)

    I am tentatively leaning towards a problem with the high input voltage.... It is the one major difference between now (not functioning) and the last time I ran it (no startup problems). It seems reasonable to me that the high input voltage may have caused some damage.

    Thanks,
    Christian



  11. #31
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    One simple test that you can do to check if it is a short or ground on the motor is to disconnect the DC to the motor, if it stays powered, put it in H.W. and turn the handwheel slowly, after so many counts it will go into following error, but if it hangs in until then, the everything up to the motor should be OK.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Hi Al,
    Thanks for your suggestions...
    I want to understand what you are saying, but I really don't....

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    One simple test that you can do to check if it is a short or ground on the motor is to disconnect the DC to the motor,
    By this, do you mean disconnect the 4-pin connector which supplies the power to the servo-motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    if it stays powered, put it in H.W.
    When you say HW, you mean "hand-wheel" mode on the pendant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    and turn the handwheel slowly,
    This won't get me anywhere on my machine, as nothing works. Until I get it to power up properly, the hand wheel doesn't do a thing.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    after so many counts it will go into following error,
    I don't know what "following error" means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    but if it hangs in until then, the everything up to the motor should be OK.
    Al.
    Thanks again,
    Christian



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    Default Enshu problems

    Christian,

    I won't be at my office until possibly later in the day. If I get there, I'll hunt up a schematic for the VCU so I can write up a way to test for shorted SCR's with the power off.
    From your response to Al's last post, it doesn't sound like the machine comes into the "ready" state. Is that the present case?

    What does come on the screen?

    The VCU with the blown fuses is the first one I would test. Slightly high voltage won't damage these. Two or three seconds with the phase reversed is all it takes though.


    Warren

    www.uptimecorp.com



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    Quote Originally Posted by WGoyer View Post
    I'll hunt up a schematic for the VCU so I can write up a way to test for shorted SCR's with the power off.
    From your response to Al's last post, it doesn't sound like the machine comes into the "ready" state. Is that the present case?
    Thanks in advance for the schematic.

    No, the machine does not come into the ready state. That's the whole problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by WGoyer View Post
    What does come on the screen?
    This is all I can get on the screen for the last few months. This is where the machine is stuck.



    Quote Originally Posted by WGoyer View Post
    The VCU with the blown fuses is the first one I would test. Slightly high voltage won't damage these. Two or three seconds with the phase reversed is all it takes though.
    I will have to test all three, because all three VCUs have blown fuses at various times, although X and Y are the most frequent culprits.

    Thanks,
    Christia



  15. #35
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    On the Diagnostic screen, what are the bits show in 0023?

    HW is hand wheel and following error is the amount the axis should move to before the error kicks in, this can be enlarged by parameter temporarily to aid in the test I mentioned, but if the machine is not in power up state then this test would be of no use.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Default Enshu problems

    Christian,
    Oh, servo overload. I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet, but have any of the VCU's or even the top boards been swapped? Each board has a jumper labeled S21 that is used in the wiring of the servo overload string. This is a series string of contacts that threads its way through the servo transformer(s), VCUs, and motors. I think Al touched on this awhile back.
    The problem with swapping boards is that the S21 jumper should be closed on two of the three VCU's. Usually, the S21 on the X drive is open, to allow routing of the overload string to go through the servo transformer.
    I looked for some Enshu prints yesterday in our files, but had no luck. I did bring the VCU prints home with me, but until we get past the servo overload screen, they won't do us any good.

    Warren
    www.uptimecorp.com



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    Quote Originally Posted by WGoyer View Post
    Christian,
    Oh, servo overload. I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet, but have any of the VCU's or even the top boards been swapped?
    No, not by me anyway.

    In extremely simple terms, the story goes as follows:

    • Machine powered up fine five years ago, with this phase converter (although I did not know how to program it).

    • Put it in storage for five years.

    • Pulled it out of storage, main power supply board inexplicably gone bad, replaced power supply, machine powers up..... but....

    • Has displayed servo overload alarm ever since, and will not get into ready state.

    Quote Originally Posted by WGoyer View Post
    Each board has a jumper labeled S21 that is used in the wiring of the servo overload string. This is a series string of contacts that threads its way through the servo transformer(s), VCUs, and motors. I think Al touched on this awhile back.
    The problem with swapping boards is that the S21 jumper should be closed on two of the three VCU's. Usually, the S21 on the X drive is open, to allow routing of the overload string to go through the servo transformer.
    I looked for some Enshu prints yesterday in our files, but had no luck. I did bring the VCU prints home with me, but until we get past the servo overload screen, they won't do us any good.

    Warren
    www.uptimecorp.com
    Thanks for looking for the prints, and for the continued help...

    Christian



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    Default Enshu problems

    OK, I'll continue looking for Enshu electrical diagrams so we can see what generates the overload message.

    Warren
    www.uptimecorp.com



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    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    On the Diagnostic screen, what are the bits show in 0023?
    11000000



    Inspected X and Y servomotors today. Y needed some cleaning up... resurfaced the commutator, but that didn't do anything for the overload message.

    CR



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    Today's question relates to encoder wiring.
    In the following, which is ground for the +5V?

    Is it H? Or is it N or P or T?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    A: PCAX = A pulse
    B: PCBX = B pulse
    C: +5V = Supply
    D: *PCAX = A pulse complement
    E: *PCBX = B " "
    F: PCZX = Marker pulse
    G: *PCZX = Marker compl.
    H: OG = shield
    J: +5V
    K: +5V
    L:
    M:
    N: OV
    P: OV
    R: OH1X = Thermal switch 1
    S: OH2X = Thermal switch 2
    T: OV

    R & S are the thermal sensor.

    Al.
    Thanks,
    Christian



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NEED ADVICE re: Enshu Yuasa AccuMill 1547 with Fanuc 3M

NEED ADVICE re: Enshu Yuasa AccuMill 1547 with Fanuc 3M