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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    If that Herco were in my shop, I would just make it work like I wanted. If that means re-engineering the system and replacing all of the controls then that would happen. I can't imagine bringing in tech support to service my equipment. I am the tech support, even for my new Haas.

    But, my shop is not a commercial high production environment, just a step above a home hobby shop. My production is limited and is for my own in-house products with a little product development and prototyping thrown in. Sometimes my machines sit idle for weeks at a time. If I were trying to make a living as a real production job shop then I would replace the machine with something that would make me money rather than cost money.

    I envy the concept of having time, and your skill with fixing your machines. We had a Mazak go down for a spindle motor and a guy here was able to replace that successfully, but Mazak helped us with a little information on the phone on account of not having a service tech available in the area for 2 weeks. That same guy re-aligned the ATC arm and got it working good. Another guy here can install the encoder now on the VM10U having been trained by a hurco tech and has done that successfully- he also swapped the O-ring seals on the brake clamp mechanisms for A and C successfully. The Lathe department manager realligned a Yama Seiki with me in a couple days and a Doosan in a few hours, but we're at a loss sometimes without good supporting information- I don't have any info to use for disassembling the C axis so I would be a little afraid of what might negatively happen worst case.



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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Green0 View Post
    I envy the concept of having time, and your skill with fixing your machines. We had a Mazak go down for a spindle motor and a guy here was able to replace that successfully, but Mazak helped us with a little information on the phone on account of not having a service tech available in the area for 2 weeks. That same guy re-aligned the ATC arm and got it working good. Another guy here can install the encoder now on the VM10U having been trained by a hurco tech and has done that successfully- he also swapped the O-ring seals on the brake clamp mechanisms for A and C successfully. The Lathe department manager realligned a Yama Seiki with me in a couple days and a Doosan in a few hours, but we're at a loss sometimes without good supporting information- I don't have any info to use for disassembling the C axis so I would be a little afraid of what might negatively happen worst case.

    It sounds like your operation is large enough to support an in-house mechanic/electrician. Finding the right guy with the right skill set might be a bit difficult but there are a few of us out there. A well rounded millwright is what you really need. A good millwright should be able to do anything in an industrial environment. Doesn't have to be a machinist, but should be able to competently operate any machine tools as well as repair them.

    Maybe the next time one of the service techs comes to your shop, make him an offer. I was a traveling technician for about 20 years, and I can tell you I was pretty burnt out after a few years of living on airplanes. If someone would have offered me a job at anywhere close to what I was making I would have seriously considered it.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    It sounds like your operation is large enough to support an in-house mechanic/electrician. Finding the right guy with the right skill set might be a bit difficult but there are a few of us out there. A well rounded millwright is what you really need. A good millwright should be able to do anything in an industrial environment. Doesn't have to be a machinist, but should be able to competently operate any machine tools as well as repair them.

    Maybe the next time one of the service techs comes to your shop, make him an offer. I was a traveling technician for about 20 years, and I can tell you I was pretty burnt out after a few years of living on airplanes. If someone would have offered me a job at anywhere close to what I was making I would have seriously considered it.
    I agree with you. The better service techs would be great team members at a shop, I don't really know what they make. My impression was very high. I know the companies bill at $150 an hour. I've thought about it. I wonder what their hourly pay plus benefits is? I could see floating $35 an hour + 70% family coinsurance pretty easily to take 95% of service calls and put them in house. We probably only run $30,000 per year of actually billed $150/hour service time here, but to have someone who could write fanuc ladder, maybe program mastercam, or integrate accessory equipment on the floor could easily make the cost basis for the extra money. After a guy could show a benefit he could earn a raise from there. Take that crazy service tech schedule and stress level and compartmentalize it to one shop, and I think that guy is really getting a break personally.

    The bigger issue though is that IMO the only service techs worth having on staff would be the senior applications people. The most knowledgable guys.

    This isn't a cost problem- if Hurco can fix the C-Axis for $6000 I would pay it. I just need to understand they actually want to be comprehensive and solve it in a way that the machine will be reliable for 4-5 years on the solution provided. I don't need a 80% travel bill on a bandaid to this problem that gets me back to screwed in 2 months. Machines on the floor need to be dependable for the capacity they represent or you end up buying redundant equipment to consider 2 machines as providing the capacity of 1 and that game isn't my favorite strategy.

    With Ellison, our Doosans have been good at representing their actual capacity. The Doosan machines thus far have been reliable such that 1 machine represents 1 machine.



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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    When I was employed by a company as a senior field tech my ending pay, in 2000, was salaried at $80K annual (about $40/hr) + benefits, I don't really remember what the whole package was. In reality, my hourly rate was a lot less that that because of the on-the-job hours, including travel time, were well over a 40 hr week on average. I was traveling all over the US, Canada, Mexico, and South America. I suspect the techs that you are working with do not have that wide of a service area. I am guessing $35/hr would get their attention.

    Based on what you have described I'm going to make a guess that Hurco can't fix your A/C axis. It's just a poor design and they are not going to re-engineer and rebuild it. In my shop I would just build one that would work, or completely redesign the Hurco and make whatever mods are needed. In your case maybe do an EBay search for ''trunnion table'' There are a couple of nice Haas units and a Tsudakoma listed, not sure if they would work with your cutting envelope. Adapt the controls as needed.

    Last edited by Jim Dawson; 08-26-2019 at 01:50 PM.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    When I was employed by a company as a senior field tech my ending pay, in 2000, was salaried at $80K annual (about $40/hr) + benefits, I don't really remember what the whole package was. In reality, my hourly rate was a lot less that that because of the on-the-job hours, including travel time, were well over a 40 hr week on average. I was traveling all over the US, Canada, Mexico, and South America. I suspect the techs that you are working with do not have that wide of a service area. I am guessing $35/hr would get their attention.

    Based on what you have described I'm going to make a guess that Hurco can't fix your A/C axis. It's just a poor design and they are not going to re-engineer and rebuild it. In my shop I would just build one that would work, or completely redesign the Hurco and make whatever mods are needed. In your case maybe do an EBay search for ''trunnion table'' There are a couple of nice Haas units and a Tsudakoma listed, not sure if they would work with your cutting envelope. Adapt the controls as needed.

    Thanks for the info. We took the table apart after a call from a service tech today. We found 6 M4 socket head cap screws held the accessory tube in the trunion that drives the encoder. We check tightened those. Those were tight. There were another 6 allen set screws in the flange of that tube, 3 were loose. Those drove the ring that the dog was attached to that hits the prox switch reading area. Then we tightened the 4 M4 socket head screws that attached the encoder to the sheet steel bracket it is attached to- 2 of those were loose. We then tightened the 4 bolts the encoder plate is mounted to the trunion casting with.

    We ran a test and kicked the fixture .010" with a cutting feed that overcame the C axis brake. We then decided to isolate the fixture by testing the table offset in Y with an indicator at specific X positions at the table slots. We checked and recorded positions, ran a part that overcame the brake and checked those- .010 motion again. We then removed the fixture and found 6-8 M6? Socket head screws in the table face of the table and thought, "Maybe these are also attached to something and can be kicked?" So we tightened those- a couple were loose, all tightened some.

    We're now putting the fixture back on to run another part, overcome the brake again and check indication of the table again. This is kind of last ditch at this point. If this doesn't work, I believe we've isolated and attempted to render all moving parts immovable and that would suggest the encoder may have a loose component internal to it.

    Another day gone on this one. .01 is a lot better than the previous .568" out of indicated Y position across the table but we haven't gotten to the zero that it should indicate because the C encoder holds position with the table.

    Last edited by Green0; 08-26-2019 at 03:37 PM.


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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    With the table tightened, the test moved the table .012". So I wasn't able to resolve it. What is odd to me is that the table was moving so dramatically and now so much less- yet not resolved. I feel less confident the encoder is broken or not properly assembled, yet unsure of what the root cause is.



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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Green0 View Post
    With the table tightened, the test moved the table .012". So I wasn't able to resolve it. What is odd to me is that the table was moving so dramatically and now so much less- yet not resolved. I feel less confident the encoder is broken or not properly assembled, yet unsure of what the root cause is.
    Is the encoder slipping, dropping counts, or loosing counts? Have you traced/plotted the signal its sending to the plc/control?
    Possibly what your tech should have started with. From that plot its easy to establish whether you have a faulty encoder or a mechanical issue.



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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Green0 View Post
    With the table tightened, the test moved the table .012". So I wasn't able to resolve it. What is odd to me is that the table was moving so dramatically and now so much less- yet not resolved. I feel less confident the encoder is broken or not properly assembled, yet unsure of what the root cause is.

    Based on the new information, it would seem that the loose bolts were the bulk of the problem.

    So now the question is where is that last 0.012 coming from. Did the table rotate? Is the whole assembly move on the mill table? Are the bolts securing the trunnions to the backing plate loose? Should the trunnions be pinned to the backing plate? Does the DRO show that the encoder did not move? What happens when you pry on the various parts, can you get indicator movement? These are the questions that I would answer in the troubleshooting process.

    You still have a lot of things to check and go through it with a logical process to narrow down the problem. Maybe some of the joints that are currently that are just bolted together should be pinned.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Could be the reason it has iou in the name!



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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    Based on the new information, it would seem that the loose bolts were the bulk of the problem.

    So now the question is where is that last 0.012 coming from. Did the table rotate? Is the whole assembly move on the mill table? Are the bolts securing the trunnions to the backing plate loose? Should the trunnions be pinned to the backing plate? Does the DRO show that the encoder did not move? What happens when you pry on the various parts, can you get indicator movement? These are the questions that I would answer in the troubleshooting process.

    You still have a lot of things to check and go through it with a logical process to narrow down the problem. Maybe some of the joints that are currently that are just bolted together should be pinned.
    It would be great if someone from Hurco could help me figure that out. I sort of think maybe it's just table motion against the bolts. I don't know how much force is being created by the 3/8" carbide end mill, but it must be too much for the assembly to handle.

    I would have initially expected motion to stop at some point but it doesn't seem to find a limit. The encoder I'm believing keeps position and tracks to zero when you home the axis and the table is what has moved.



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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Green0 View Post
    It would be great if someone from Hurco could help me figure that out. I sort of think maybe it's just table motion against the bolts. I don't know how much force is being created by the 3/8" carbide end mill, but it must be too much for the assembly to handle.

    I would have initially expected motion to stop at some point but it doesn't seem to find a limit. The encoder I'm believing keeps position and tracks to zero when you home the axis and the table is what has moved.
    Sorry I'm a little unclear, which axis seems to be moving? By ''table'' do you mean the C axis is rotating?

    The cutting force that a 3/8 end mill can apply should not be able to move anything unless the ''anything'' is loose. I would think the weak link in the chain would be the endmill.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    Sorry I'm a little unclear, which axis seems to be moving? By ''table'' do you mean the C axis is rotating?

    The cutting force that a 3/8 end mill can apply should not be able to move anything unless the ''anything'' is loose. I would think the weak link in the chain would be the endmill.

    Yes the machine has XYZ, A tilt, C rotary, and the C is rotating. I would have totally agreed with you before this issue, and maybe the machine will prove me wrong later today. A Hurco technician in the area lent us a known working Fagor encoder - our mill lead drove to pick that up and is installing it now. It is the tech's belief that this cannot happen without the encoder being defective from Fagor and having a loose component internal to itself. We're going to re-run the part that overcomes the C axis brake to see if we can get the table and encoder to hold their positional relationship as soon as we get it installed.

    This wouldn't be a possibility with a Fanuc component- we never would have lost the first encoder if it was a Fanuc component. I have machines (that have an undesirable characteristic) that spray coolant all over the Fanuc encoders because the way covers can't be 100% waterproof with 1000PSI coolant and they just soldier on like its nothing. I love Fanuc components. A couple drops (literally) of coolant killed the first Fagor encoder. The original encoder was essentially dry with the exception of a hint of coolant on the shaft seal that obviously didn't seal the shaft. If this test does prove the encoder is loosing position, Fagor will probably require us to send the encoder to Spain for ~$300 to be inspected prior to covering the component. If the encoder was a Fanuc component inside a 2 year warranty they would have a replacement here the same day and would install it for free. Of course that policy doesn't get exercised, because I've only seen them come and prove their component is working and bill the machine builder for the time. After you see that 2 or maybe 3 times you get the feeling it will never be the Fanuc component that has failed at least not in any machine that has any reasonable amount of use. I'm not a fan of the red and yellow colors but Fanuc is an incredible brand.



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