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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    When I was employed by a company as a senior field tech my ending pay, in 2000, was salaried at $80K annual (about $40/hr) + benefits, I don't really remember what the whole package was. In reality, my hourly rate was a lot less that that because of the on-the-job hours, including travel time, were well over a 40 hr week on average. I was traveling all over the US, Canada, Mexico, and South America. I suspect the techs that you are working with do not have that wide of a service area. I am guessing $35/hr would get their attention.

    Based on what you have described I'm going to make a guess that Hurco can't fix your A/C axis. It's just a poor design and they are not going to re-engineer and rebuild it. In my shop I would just build one that would work, or completely redesign the Hurco and make whatever mods are needed. In your case maybe do an EBay search for ''trunnion table'' There are a couple of nice Haas units and a Tsudakoma listed, not sure if they would work with your cutting envelope. Adapt the controls as needed.

    Thanks for the info. We took the table apart after a call from a service tech today. We found 6 M4 socket head cap screws held the accessory tube in the trunion that drives the encoder. We check tightened those. Those were tight. There were another 6 allen set screws in the flange of that tube, 3 were loose. Those drove the ring that the dog was attached to that hits the prox switch reading area. Then we tightened the 4 M4 socket head screws that attached the encoder to the sheet steel bracket it is attached to- 2 of those were loose. We then tightened the 4 bolts the encoder plate is mounted to the trunion casting with.

    We ran a test and kicked the fixture .010" with a cutting feed that overcame the C axis brake. We then decided to isolate the fixture by testing the table offset in Y with an indicator at specific X positions at the table slots. We checked and recorded positions, ran a part that overcame the brake and checked those- .010 motion again. We then removed the fixture and found 6-8 M6? Socket head screws in the table face of the table and thought, "Maybe these are also attached to something and can be kicked?" So we tightened those- a couple were loose, all tightened some.

    We're now putting the fixture back on to run another part, overcome the brake again and check indication of the table again. This is kind of last ditch at this point. If this doesn't work, I believe we've isolated and attempted to render all moving parts immovable and that would suggest the encoder may have a loose component internal to it.

    Another day gone on this one. .01 is a lot better than the previous .568" out of indicated Y position across the table but we haven't gotten to the zero that it should indicate because the C encoder holds position with the table.

    Last edited by Green0; 08-26-2019 at 03:37 PM.


  2. #42
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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    With the table tightened, the test moved the table .012". So I wasn't able to resolve it. What is odd to me is that the table was moving so dramatically and now so much less- yet not resolved. I feel less confident the encoder is broken or not properly assembled, yet unsure of what the root cause is.



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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Green0 View Post
    With the table tightened, the test moved the table .012". So I wasn't able to resolve it. What is odd to me is that the table was moving so dramatically and now so much less- yet not resolved. I feel less confident the encoder is broken or not properly assembled, yet unsure of what the root cause is.
    Is the encoder slipping, dropping counts, or loosing counts? Have you traced/plotted the signal its sending to the plc/control?
    Possibly what your tech should have started with. From that plot its easy to establish whether you have a faulty encoder or a mechanical issue.



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Green0 View Post
    With the table tightened, the test moved the table .012". So I wasn't able to resolve it. What is odd to me is that the table was moving so dramatically and now so much less- yet not resolved. I feel less confident the encoder is broken or not properly assembled, yet unsure of what the root cause is.

    Based on the new information, it would seem that the loose bolts were the bulk of the problem.

    So now the question is where is that last 0.012 coming from. Did the table rotate? Is the whole assembly move on the mill table? Are the bolts securing the trunnions to the backing plate loose? Should the trunnions be pinned to the backing plate? Does the DRO show that the encoder did not move? What happens when you pry on the various parts, can you get indicator movement? These are the questions that I would answer in the troubleshooting process.

    You still have a lot of things to check and go through it with a logical process to narrow down the problem. Maybe some of the joints that are currently that are just bolted together should be pinned.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Could be the reason it has iou in the name!



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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    Based on the new information, it would seem that the loose bolts were the bulk of the problem.

    So now the question is where is that last 0.012 coming from. Did the table rotate? Is the whole assembly move on the mill table? Are the bolts securing the trunnions to the backing plate loose? Should the trunnions be pinned to the backing plate? Does the DRO show that the encoder did not move? What happens when you pry on the various parts, can you get indicator movement? These are the questions that I would answer in the troubleshooting process.

    You still have a lot of things to check and go through it with a logical process to narrow down the problem. Maybe some of the joints that are currently that are just bolted together should be pinned.
    It would be great if someone from Hurco could help me figure that out. I sort of think maybe it's just table motion against the bolts. I don't know how much force is being created by the 3/8" carbide end mill, but it must be too much for the assembly to handle.

    I would have initially expected motion to stop at some point but it doesn't seem to find a limit. The encoder I'm believing keeps position and tracks to zero when you home the axis and the table is what has moved.



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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Green0 View Post
    It would be great if someone from Hurco could help me figure that out. I sort of think maybe it's just table motion against the bolts. I don't know how much force is being created by the 3/8" carbide end mill, but it must be too much for the assembly to handle.

    I would have initially expected motion to stop at some point but it doesn't seem to find a limit. The encoder I'm believing keeps position and tracks to zero when you home the axis and the table is what has moved.
    Sorry I'm a little unclear, which axis seems to be moving? By ''table'' do you mean the C axis is rotating?

    The cutting force that a 3/8 end mill can apply should not be able to move anything unless the ''anything'' is loose. I would think the weak link in the chain would be the endmill.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    Sorry I'm a little unclear, which axis seems to be moving? By ''table'' do you mean the C axis is rotating?

    The cutting force that a 3/8 end mill can apply should not be able to move anything unless the ''anything'' is loose. I would think the weak link in the chain would be the endmill.

    Yes the machine has XYZ, A tilt, C rotary, and the C is rotating. I would have totally agreed with you before this issue, and maybe the machine will prove me wrong later today. A Hurco technician in the area lent us a known working Fagor encoder - our mill lead drove to pick that up and is installing it now. It is the tech's belief that this cannot happen without the encoder being defective from Fagor and having a loose component internal to itself. We're going to re-run the part that overcomes the C axis brake to see if we can get the table and encoder to hold their positional relationship as soon as we get it installed.

    This wouldn't be a possibility with a Fanuc component- we never would have lost the first encoder if it was a Fanuc component. I have machines (that have an undesirable characteristic) that spray coolant all over the Fanuc encoders because the way covers can't be 100% waterproof with 1000PSI coolant and they just soldier on like its nothing. I love Fanuc components. A couple drops (literally) of coolant killed the first Fagor encoder. The original encoder was essentially dry with the exception of a hint of coolant on the shaft seal that obviously didn't seal the shaft. If this test does prove the encoder is loosing position, Fagor will probably require us to send the encoder to Spain for ~$300 to be inspected prior to covering the component. If the encoder was a Fanuc component inside a 2 year warranty they would have a replacement here the same day and would install it for free. Of course that policy doesn't get exercised, because I've only seen them come and prove their component is working and bill the machine builder for the time. After you see that 2 or maybe 3 times you get the feeling it will never be the Fanuc component that has failed at least not in any machine that has any reasonable amount of use. I'm not a fan of the red and yellow colors but Fanuc is an incredible brand.



  9. #49
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    If it does prove to be the encoder, I would replace the Fagor encoder with an IP67 or better rated encoder, then it would run under water or a direct coolant spray. Many encoder manufacturers offer sealed encoders in many form factors and output characteristics. Should be pretty easy to find one that is compatible and probably for a lot less money than the Fagor.

    Again based on the information you have given here, the brake seems to have a problem. It's time to figure out why the brake is not holding. I assume it is air applied, so cranking up the air pressure would be my first action. That being said, I have never worried too much about manufacturer's ratings. In the immortal words of Admiral Farragut ''Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.'' Maybe it needs a larger actuator.

    Another idea is to revisit your cutting strategy and tool path. It could be that you could reduce the cutting forces without adding to the cutting time.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    With the techs encoder, we ran the test and the machine control showed a deviation in C of .027 degrees in the cut, so it theoretically overcame the brake, over-road the .01 degree parameter we currently are running for stopping the cutting process, and did not alarm out. When we referenced C, it appeared that the fixture had lost tram by .002" over 4", so not .01", not .012" on a partially finished cut, this was .002" on a completed cut- the angle over 2" (half distance figured to .028 degrees= to the .027 deviation in cut), then we turned cutting parameters down to 35% and saw .02 deviation in cut, trammed .00135 over the 4" .0007 over 2" = .020degree deviation same as the control displayed.

    I think there is something wrong with the design of the Fagor encoder that allows the scale to deviate under vibration in orientation with its mounting surfaces.

    In short, I don't think anything is moving except the encoder. The brake is probably not being overcome. The motion is the scale in the encoder. If the motion were not the scale in the encoder, we would be seeing the table return to tram at zero when we cut at 35% feedrate of something that moved the table .027deg, we should not see .02deg of motion and whatever motion we see should return to zero position. I don't believe a cut at 100% that could move a fixture could also move the fixture at 35%.

    We wouldn't see 5 times the motion with one encoder vs another encoder if the issue were not the encoder itself. In this case the actual design of the encoder itself.


    We had a caliper measured chip thickness of .0015" at 100% so our chip thickness should have dropped to .0005 or so at 35% feed and the load should have dropped dramatically, so vibration was the only remaining effect to speak of.



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    That sounds reasonable. What you are describing is called ''dither'' But the encoder counter in the computer should not be counting up or down while this is occuring. I would expect to see bouncing in the encoder counter, this is normal, but it should not be counting in one direction (up or down) under these conditions. Is it possible to actually read the encoder counter from the machine software? That would really tell the story.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    That sounds reasonable. What you are describing is called ''dither'' But the encoder counter in the computer should not be counting up or down while this is occuring. I would expect to see bouncing in the encoder counter, this is normal, but it should not be counting in one direction (up or down) under these conditions. Is it possible to actually read the encoder counter from the machine software? That would really tell the story.
    I don't know what is possible. I believe Hurco has made the machine in a way that does allow functions to be viewed from a recording but I don't know how to view it.



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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    I guess it might be worthwhile to research this function. Would be really helpful. But I think you are getting the problem narrowed down.

    Problems like this is one of the reasons I wrote my own CNC control software. With a mouse click I can bring up the diagnostic screen and read in real time exactly what is going on at the lowest level on any input/output or axis encoder.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Green0 View Post
    I don't know what is possible. I believe Hurco has made the machine in a way that does allow functions to be viewed from a recording but I don't know how to view it.
    Tracing the encoder signal is done with an oscilloscope. Your tech should have one in his toolbox, handheld or tabletop both can save the data to file.
    PS: while in the there, investigate for "noise" in the wiring. Often cause for encoder counts drop.

    g'luck



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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Mecanix View Post
    Tracing the encoder signal is done with an oscilloscope. Your tech should have one in his toolbox, handheld or tabletop both can save the data to file.
    PS: while in the there, investigate for "noise" in the wiring. Often cause for encoder counts drop.

    g'luck
    While I agree with you that a scope is a useful tool for confirming the encoder function and checking for line noise, exactly what I would use. But it won't tell you what the encoder counter in the computer is doing, which is the data that is needed at this step in the process.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    While I agree with you that a scope is a useful tool for confirming the encoder function and checking for line noise, exactly what I would use. But it won't tell you what the encoder counter in the computer is doing, which is the data that is needed at this step in the process.
    Both my 840D and 828D will trace analog/digital and feedback at the HMI directly. I've asked what control/plc this VM10U is backen'ed with earlier; that was the purpose i.e. saving OP's tech to interpret logic signals via a scope.
    Not exactly sure what control this is running on, haven't checked in all honesty. Appears to be some custom vnck kit...



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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Mecanix View Post
    Both my 840D and 828D will trace analog/digital and feedback at the HMI directly. I've asked what control/plc this VM10U is backen'ed with earlier; that was the purpose i.e. saving OP's tech to interpret logic signals via a scope.
    Not exactly sure what control this is running on, haven't checked in all honesty. Appears to be some custom vnck kit...
    This machine is down again, the hard drive failed, the odd part about that was that we replaced that hard drive as part of an upgrade package a year and a half ago with a Hurco VM10UI equipment solid state drive we expected to enhance reliability and performance. I guess bad luck. That drive was like $1500, and it is a $22 WD drive so that was not a good spend.

    We're hoping to get someone in to re-image a drive to put it up again because we don't have the original drive for whatever reason to put in to make the machine work.

    Last edited by Green0; 09-28-2019 at 02:18 PM.


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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Green0 View Post
    This machine is down again, the hard drive failed, the odd part about that was that we replaced that hard drive as part of an upgrade package a year and a half ago with a Hurco VM10UI equipment solid state drive we expected to enhance reliability and performance. I guess bad luck. That drive was like $1500, and it is a $22 WD drive so that was not a good spend.

    We're hoping to get someone in to re-image a drive to put it up again because we don't have the original drive for whatever reason to put in to make the machine work.
    If the drive is not completely toast, you may be able to stuff it into a computer and clone it. I keep a spare cloned solid state drive in all of my computers (just laying in the bottom of the case) so if my drive goes down, I can swap in the spare and be running again in minutes. New solid state drives are ridiculously cheap, I just bought a 1TB drive for my desktop a couple of weeks ago for $108 from Amazon, in the 500MB range they are considerably less money. Took about 30 min to clone the original drive. Cheap insurance. I also have my machine computer files backed up in at least 3 seperate places.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Scary VM10U problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Green0 View Post
    This machine is down again, the hard drive failed, the odd part about that was that we replaced that hard drive as part of an upgrade package a year and a half ago with a Hurco VM10UI equipment solid state drive we expected to enhance reliability and performance. I guess bad luck. That drive was like $1500, and it is a $22 WD drive so that was not a good spend.

    We're hoping to get someone in to re-image a drive to put it up again because we don't have the original drive for whatever reason to put in to make the machine work.
    SSD data can easily be recovered if it wasn't manually deleted by someone at the first place. In your case I doubt someone would have format or deleted anything so chances that a recovery expert be able to recover that drive (or data) for you is almost certain. Check locally for data recovery service, sure you got that service near-by.

    If I may add, and at this point; it might be worthy to get an electrician/engineer on site to scope/inspect that machine's main and all internal circuits' power rails. All of those issues that you are reporting in this thread are symptoms of either heavy noise, current surges and/or low power conditions. SSD are extremely fussy when it comes to surges or low power. So are encoders if I'm not mistaken.

    Get a priest in-house also, could simply be that your machine is possessed. Perhaps an exorcist could get it to leave you alone for a few months :/
    What a nightmare man. Post back with updates or any questions we'll see if we can be of any help. G'luck



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    Agreed it would be amazing to have the machine work. Its pretty stressful when they don't.


    I talked to a data recovery service that could 24hr service one for $2000-$3000.

    Then a Hurco apps guy said that wouldn't work because the control is somehow serial linked to the hard drive and machine or something so apparently copying to another drive won't fix the machine.

    Hes trying to schedule something. The local dynamic retailer is 2 weeks out.

    The data recovery service said they see as many ssds as traditional platter drives aka there wasnt inherant reliability in ssd.



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