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Thread: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

  1. #61


  2. #62
    DeckelHead's Avatar
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    I stumbled upon this thread and got a chuckle. Last weekend I finally got fed up with my KMB1 always shutting down on me and I ripped out the guts. I've finished drawing up the schematic and am working on a retrofit as I write this. In fact, the way I found the post here is that I was looking for photos of what solenoids are in the head because I was curious about a wire (not taking my head off right now).

    In my case I'm setting up the system to use LinuxCNC. I'm keeping as an analog feedback because I'm less than thrilled with step/direction. I am using Granite VSD-E servo amplifiers and an Electrocraft for an A-Axis. I am using a Mesa Electronics 7i77 as the interface board (remember, this is analog, not step/direction). I am not painting the machine because I really don't have the room or the desire right now. Someday I might do it though.

    This is an interesting project and I think the Hurco makes an excellent starting point for someone that wants a nice CNC. It is a far better decision, in my opinion, to start with this than to convert a manual machine. KMB-1 machines can be purchased for near nothing now. In fact, they are often at scrap prices. And, yet, they have ballscrews, lubrication setups, servos, etc.... A great foundation.

    Interesting that you are keeping the arm and console. I am not committed to keeping it yet. I was thinking of something that came off the top of the machine because space is a premium in my garage... I'm also deviating from your approach by leaving the computer in the cabinet that used to have the MPU and other boards.

    Anyhow, looks like your project is coming along well. Good job!

    Project Location: Sunnyvale, CA



  3. #63
    Member FannBlade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    Welcome aboard! Please post a link if you decided to put up a build log. I would love to see another one get finished (unlike mine).



  4. #64

    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by DeckelHead View Post
    I stumbled upon this thread and got a chuckle. Last weekend I finally got fed up with my KMB1 always shutting down on me and I ripped out the guts. I've finished drawing up the schematic and am working on a retrofit as I write this. In fact, the way I found the post here is that I was looking for photos of what solenoids are in the head because I was curious about a wire (not taking my head off right now).

    In my case I'm setting up the system to use LinuxCNC. I'm keeping as an analog feedback because I'm less than thrilled with step/direction. I am using Granite VSD-E servo amplifiers and an Electrocraft for an A-Axis. I am using a Mesa Electronics 7i77 as the interface board (remember, this is analog, not step/direction). I am not painting the machine because I really don't have the room or the desire right now. Someday I might do it though.

    This is an interesting project and I think the Hurco makes an excellent starting point for someone that wants a nice CNC. It is a far better decision, in my opinion, to start with this than to convert a manual machine. KMB-1 machines can be purchased for near nothing now. In fact, they are often at scrap prices. And, yet, they have ballscrews, lubrication setups, servos, etc.... A great foundation.

    Interesting that you are keeping the arm and console. I am not committed to keeping it yet. I was thinking of something that came off the top of the machine because space is a premium in my garage... I'm also deviating from your approach by leaving the computer in the cabinet that used to have the MPU and other boards.

    Anyhow, looks like your project is coming along well. Good job!

    Project Location: Sunnyvale, CA
    Ran with an overhead version of the control console, and I have to say its often in its own way. I didn't like how far it stuck out in the front when it was off the base, but I think it might was less in the way of operating the machine. My concern was making sure it wasn't in the way of the rest of the shop. All things are a trade I guess.

    There were two solenoid operated air valves in the head on mine. One operates the automatic oiler, and one operates the pneumatic spindle brake. There was a little electromechanical timer switch in the control cabinet which fired the oiler solenoid. I don't know how the brake was fired. I hooked it to my e-stop switch so when I press the button it locks the brake (well "locks" is a strong word). It makes tool changes easier. Maybe not good practice, but I use the E-stop every time I do a tool change.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


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    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    I agree on the tradeoffs for the pendant. That is why I'm keeping my swing arm around until I decide what I'm going to do. Basically it will only have the basic computer I/O parts and a few switches, so altering that part of the design should be fairly easily accomplished at a later date.

    I've been in the head before and I just forgot what why there were three 110V legs going there. Once I found this thread, with its pictures, it was apparent that both solenoids were up there and everything became well understood... As for design, I am doing things a little differently. I ran my Hurco for years as a BX (actually liked it quite a bit). I'm an electrical engineer and have board level schematics so I was never afraid to get into the guts of the system. However, all of the connectors drove me nuts because they were so old and noisy. The machine would shut down and you just can't have that. I'd clean the contacts and the machine would run better, but then it would start to have issues again. Ugh! However, one thing I really liked.... the ability to switch the brake off. So I'm preserving that part of the original design. I'll have a separate brake switch and one of the IO lines will actually control the brake solenoid. In this fashion, the computer will automatically turn the brake on and off when the spindle starts, as well as monitor my desired state. I don't want to hit E-Stop to do that.

    I should really start my own build thread, I guess...
    Alan (originally posted under DeckelHead, before I realized I have MrMetric)



  6. #66
    Member Tkamsker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    Thank you for the pics i am almost finnish with an Bridgeport retrofit which Buttons did you use physically

    Gesendet von meinem SM-N9005 mit Tapatalk



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    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    Great !! Another Hurco build, I can`t believe after re-reading Bob`s hurco thread, and looking at the dates on a couple of my own posts that it has its been 18 months since I have had a chance to get back to working at my re-fit or even have been on here!!!

    I am running a similar setup to yours, built my PC into the original swinging enclosure and monitor like yours too, using a pmdx 126 , smooth stepper, gecko`s and VFD, was able to use the original encoders, my machine had 1000 line encoders as it was upgraded to BX control by Hurco some years ago
    I had the machine up and running the samples on mach 3, but got to the stage where I was thinking about what buttons I would need or like to have on the front panel, ended up buying a pokeys board and that is as far as I got, roll on 18 months and I have spent the day wiring up proper lights and power to the machine as all testing was last done using extension cables !

    I was so glad to come back on here and not only find that Bob`s thread was still alive, but now we have this one too, hopefully we can help each other get to the end of the tunnel, I really felt for Bob when I read about his z troubles, but no doubt he will get the high speed setup working well...

    I look forward to following your progress, and thanks for taking the time to post and share the build with others



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    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    FannBlade, I am all up and going, been off on leave and have worked all week on my Hurco, got the brake, lube pump, flood and mist coolant all up and running, I have even cut a few test runs
    If I can help you in any way pm me. I have almost the same setup as you are using. I cant believe I have got so far, this was my first ever build.
    Big question now for me is what cad/cam to go for, I have never used that before either, so the curve will be steep !!



  9. #69

    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    CAD/CAM is about price and what you can live with.

    I use CamBam for $149 for CAM and 90% of my 2D CAD as well. It doesn't have HSM strategies or cconstant engagement tool paths or peel machining methods at this time, but... IT WORKS and its cheap and the demo period is very generous (number of executions) and won't dump you by surprise. The demo is 100% functional. (Don't waste your time on the free version. Its about 100 generations old.) CamBam is only setup to do approximate 3D using STL files. Some argue its not true 3D, but I do a heck of a lot with it. CB also has a hugely helpful core of users who support it on the CamBam forums. They are all focused on right now results, and will help you find work arounds for just about anything.

    For my 3D CAD I use ViaCad 2d/3d Pro Version 9, but I started out with version 7. Version 7 had its issues, and 8 was better, but it was very quickly replaced with 9. I don't know if it still offered there but V8 used to be offered on Amazon for a fraction of the price of the current release. Then you could buy the current release at the upgrade price, and see a net savings. Its got a learning curve, but its not horrible, and there are lots of on-line tutorials for ViaCad on YouTube. Its only got a seven (7) day trial period though. If you demo it be prepared to demo it as soon as you install it. Maybe over a long weekend. If you have a dual screen computer or second computer its nice to have ViaCad up on one screen and a YouTube tutorial up on another. Its not as cheap as some software, but it works pretty good, and has lots and lots of tools. Its certainly not as expensive as some of the big names. By an order of magnitude. Its about half the price of SketchupPro since Google SOLD IT OUT to Trimble. One more plus for ViaCad is that it can import and export a bunch of common 2D and 3D formats. You can even import and image file, scale it, and draw over top of it if you want to use it for "creative" CAD.

    Speaking of Sketchup. SketchupMake is free, but the license agreement is pretty onerous. You can't use anything its ever breathed on for anything that might ever be in the same room with anything that has a hint of commercial value. Sketchup does seem to have a following, but since Google sold it out I can't really figure out where. I seem to recall that Sketchup really only supports its own proprietary format well, and plug-ins and secondary programs were needed to get some of the most commonly used formats for CAM. I have not used it since it SOLD OUT and went commercial so your mileage may vary. It might have some of those oh so necessary things built in now.

    If you decide to demo BobCAD givem them all FAKE contact info if you download the demo. Otherwise they will hound you like mosquitoes. If you decide you want it then give them good info and tell the salesman, "No," for a few months until he gives you a decent price.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


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    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    Thanks for the the info Bob, I had looked at cambam, and i have downloaded a few other demos, Bobcad and Visual cad from mecsoft, the visual cad has a free for life cutdown version built into the main demo and it seems to work well, although it did crash twice on me, considering I am a complete newbie to this stuff, I have in the past used some graphic design programs like freehand and photoshop, but never cad/cam. The visual cad seems quite intuitive and prompts you for inputs, Bobcad on the other hand seems a little harder to find your way around, I ended up watching some video`s on youtube to get me going.

    I have read a lot of posts on here and other forums and Viacad and Alibre seem to be well liked for cad. I did like the idea on having an all in one package like bobcadcam, it has had some really bad press in the past, but most people have said that the newer versions are much better, I did manage to create a part in the end ( motorcycle top fork mount), and I really liked the simulation mode. I know what you mean about the sales guys though, I had inquired 3 years ago when I started looking for a cnc machine, and I am still getting the occasional email from them !

    Tonight I used one of the wizards in Mach3 to machine out the original alloy plate off the hurco control panel to fit around my 20" monitor, so that`s my first ever cnc job cut....



  11. #71

    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    Always look aver the results from the Mach 3 Wizards carefully before you cut. I don't trust a couple of them much at all. One round circular wizard always gave me lemon shaped cuts, and of course everybody on the Mach 3 forum blamed my machine. LOL. I have found the New Fangled Wizards group work pretty well, but for some reason every once in a while I get code without a spindle start. The default screen set has a short cut button directly to the New Fangled Wizards.

    I've used copy cat, and I tried to use the threading wizard, but I found the threading plug-in for CamBam worked 100X easier and better for thread milling.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  12. #72
    Member FannBlade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    Stay tuned guys I'm back on track and will have a bunch of updates coming in next few days.





  13. #73
    Member FannBlade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    Got the controller about finished. I decided to keep it movable since I can't use the pendant arm anymore. I will use flexible conduit to allow for some movement. Although I think I will make a quick release to connect it coolant enclosure also.





  14. #74

    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    I'm watching your intro video.

    $4K is about right. I spent about that much on mine, and didn't know anything when I started. I only paid $500 for the mill though. I did re-retrofit it a few years later. The Gecko drives just didn't hold up. I killed several of them before I decided I was wasting money on cheap drives. I've had decent luck with Du-Gong drives so far. I did kill one, but change out was fast and easy.

    Lots of Kwik 200 holders on Ebay still. I have all I need. Most came off Ebay. One outfit does make new ones also. Collis I think. I didn't see them on their website just now, but I'm sure they are the last ones I know of who made them. Another users here on the Zone made a bunch of his own. I wanted some that held ER collets. ToolsNGizmos had some, but they were very pricey. I bought some 1/2 shank Kwik 200 holders and some 1/2 shank ET16 collet chucks. That has worked out fairly well. I also used one larger holder with a larger straight shank ER25 holder. I use that one mostly for larger size drill bits. Some Kwik 200 tooling still has some cost to it even used. Shell mill arbors, drill chucks, etc.

    Ha! Just got to the point where you talk about using a collet chuck in the DA collet holder. I think you will be happier using ER collet chucks in solid tool holders. I think the runout is less and I know the flex is less. If you are going to do heavy roughing its still best to put the mill directly in a solid holder. I would suggest going with the solid holders for mills 3/8 and larger anyway based on my experience with this same machine.

    I disagree. It is quick change if you use the disc brake. Its not as fast as something with a drawbar actuator, but its fast enough. I didn't get the spindle collar tool with mine so I made one. I think I posted the DXF file here on the Zone somewhere. Its still pretty quick.

    I did the same thing with the brake. Solenoid valve controlled by a relay with a switch on the control panel. Works ok. I have a Mitsubishi VFD using the original breaking resister, and the machine spins down to full stop nicely in a fraction over 3 seconds. I set my control software at 4 and never have an issue. It might stop faster, but that's fast enough.

    I used the stock air operated oiler with a timer (electro mechanical that was already in the machine). It operates another 110V solenoid valve every 15 minutes. If I run all day I need to add oil sometime the next day.

    I did not use the in column pump and catch basin. Excess oil will build up in there over time, I use the table drains directly into a parts washer tube with the side pump hole patched over, and a coolant pump dropped through the lid. Since you are going with a full enclosure you have a lot of options as to how you manage coolant.

    I used USD E6 encoders which do require a larger cover on the Y. I think I posted a picture of it in my build thread. I built it to fit exactly on the existing configuration of the Y cover. I think an E5 might fit under the stock cover. I don't recall why I went with an E6 over an E5. The bases did fit on the stock screw holes on all axis. I really had no issue with the belt drives on the axis. I think it was just done for overall size and clearance. As you know the X is direct drive with a flex plate. X was also the easiest to tune. There may be "some" variance from the belt drive that shows up in the difficulty of tuning. On the other hand if I recall my original manual on the machine said it was only good for .003 anyway. I have found its actually better than that. I'd have to go open the door and look, but I think mine is a year older than yours.

    Photo homing? Mine were proximity. They are also pretty good. Always re-homes within a couple thousandths.

    Busted encoders. LOL. The plastic on my original encoders was so brittle it crumbled when touched on two out of three of them. Mine were only 300 line also. That's the main reason I went with the USDs and bumped up to 1000 line. Now the accuracy and repeatability is just about all the tightness of the machine.

    Open that top cover on your main spindle motor and look into it. Mine has a second 3 phase motor inside there that operates a blower fan independently of the main motor. I ran it on a secondary 3phase VFD set at 60hz for a long time. I did something and popped the VFD so I put a 110V muffin fan on the top of the motor to draw air, but it does have a cooling fan of its own. If you have six wires coming out of the motor housing I can almost guarantee yours does too.

    I'm pretty sure that "big" thing in the back was a big transformer so you could run the machine on 230 or 460. I didn't even put the box back on the machine. The 230-60 transformer was saved for the DC servo power supply.

    I thought about a sump pump, but went with a shaft (water cooler style) pump instead. I do not run a bypass. It works fine. I just have ball valves on my nozzles to control flow. I don't have a wash down though. I just vacuum it out with a shop vac. Chip management is always an issue. I'd suggest an ESS rather than a USB board. I ran a USB Smoothstepper and it worked ok, but the Ethernet Smoothstepper was better.

    DuGong runs 160 volt 35 amp drives. I think the stock voltage on my machine was about 90 volts. I did back wind it to get 78VDC off the rectifier for the Geckos, I am still running 78VDC with the DuGongs. Its fast and has good acceleration. I tested at stupid high accel and speed, and then turned it back 300ipm and 30iss. After losing one drive I turned it back to 200/25 probably not related, but I would rather be safe.

    I'll watch your controller video soon.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  15. #75

    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    FYI: I am thinking about placing a water proof switch and a sounder on the front cover of the head for the brake circuit. I think it will be a lot faster for tool changes, and the sounder will remind me to release the brake before pressing start. I thought about using an output on the brake relay for a spindle inhibit, but I either disable the spindle completely which could have a similar problem as the brake staying on or I use it as a door safety which prevents me from jogging the machine. I think adding a sounder/flasher to the brake circuit will make for a nice compromise. Also thinking about moving or placing a second estop on the face of the head.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


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    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    I also did a KMB1 retrofit, used DuGong drives, smooth stepper, US Digital encoders, Mach3. It's what I started my business with. I just finish disassembling mine as mechanical it was wore out and not worth the money to fix. I was looking at about $3k in parts to maybe get it back running. Plus I now have VMC's machines CAT40, BT30

    Also you don't have to change Y-axis cover to fit an encoder under the existing cover. I don't remember which encoder # this is but I can find out. I just had to bend the pins over to make it fit. See attach picture for what I did.

    Watching this thread as I miss having a project like this to work on. My business is just to busy to do anything else right now.

    Hurco KMB1 upgrade-img_0307-jpgHurco KMB1 upgrade-img_0306-jpgHurco KMB1 upgrade-img_0304-jpg

    UPDATE: Did some searching and didn't realize that I had already posted these pictures in another thread for Bob La Londe.

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/hurco/...ml#post1222543



  17. #77
    Member FannBlade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    was looking to use this with the PMDX 126 Mach 4 is suppose to be designed for USB input.

    PMDX.COM - Products for CNC and motion control applications

    Keep your front door open I will have a bunch of questions!!



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    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    I used the PMDX-126 on my retrofit, worked great. I also had the addon card so that I could control the speed of my VFD with it. They make a great product.



  19. #79

    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    I have a PMDX126 with the addon speed control in a box somewhere for a future build. It should work with an E-SS or a USB-SS equally as well. I did have a machine with a PMDX and ESS for a while, but the build was so bad I traded the machine for something else. Having not used the PMDX126 for an actual build (yet) I have little informed opinion.

    I originally used the C23 BOB and am now using a C32 BOB. I liked the configurability of the C23 better, but the C32 has modular connection with the DuGong drives. I had to use relays for my proximity sensors, because the C32 would not take the inputs directly like the C23 did. The C32 and the C23 both have onboard spindle relays and 0-10VDC analog spindle control output. Had some spindle control issues with the C32 as well. I won't buy another I don't think. I did NOT throw away the C23. Its going to get used again. The only issue I had with the C23 was a cold solder on of all things the estop circuit. LOL.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  20. #80
    Member FannBlade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hurco KMB1 upgrade

    New updates. Planning on going with Cetroid Acorn controller.





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