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  1. #81
    Mfg Engineer Scott_bob's Avatar
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    Would you believe?

    Using a Fadal CNC machine, or (one like it), you could make aluminum parts cutting at programmed feeds over 300 Inches per minute? Now, understand that this CNC is not always going F300. Depending on geometric features say small radii (thru 5 axis motion), and angular changes in direction the feed rate is automatically decelerated. Imagine being able to set the feed rate of your tool then letting the CNC machine slow the motion as needed depending on the geometry of the tool path.

    Imagine being able to process huge program files off your network drive and doing away with RS232 and DNC! Need more CNC machine memory, just go down to Fry Electronics and buy a gigabyte for 30 dollars, plug it in and off you go…

    Higher rates of controlled cutting are accomplished by keeping the cutter moving and keeping the tool pressure constant. This sounds like a simple concept but in practice it becomes quite a challenge. Cutter performance can only be optimized when each flute of the cutter is engaged with the metal such that an identical chip load is present. On a manual mill when you crank on the axis feed handle you can feel it stiffen up as your cutter engages the metal. In the next instant the handle wants to fly forward as the cutter exits. The next flute engages and it starts all over again. These same forces are at work in your CNC machine. You don’t feel it, but the motors do, and most controls cannot correct for these intermittent forces fast enough to prevent one flute from taking more of a bite than the next. Most of today’s CNC controls (and nearly all controls over 6 years old) are simply not fast enough to properly execute precise motion control at speeds above one million encoder pulses per minute. Yes, many controls can count at and above this speed however their response time is too slow to tightly control the velocity of 3 or 4 or 5 axis all at once. The Rubicon control uses encoders capable of 4,000,000 pulses per second, (10 to 100x that of other CNCs) .

    What do your think?
    Scott

    Scott_bob


  2. #82
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    Default makino

    Our new machines will be here Monday Morning.Any info on speeds and feeds for cutting steel(px-5 nak55 p20)
    hardness from 30 - 50 at high speeds would be great.Both makinos come with 20k spindles.Keep up the good work with all the info this is a great site to get info.Happy Holidays everyone.

    rollie


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    Registered hardmill's Avatar
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    Good to hear.
    E-mail some specifics on your application, tools holders, etc.
    I give you some ideas.

    PEACE



  4. #84
    Member HuFlungDung's Avatar
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    Pardon my asking, but what do these 20k spindles sound like when they are running full bore? Is it as unpleasant as I'm imagining?

    First you get good, then you get fast. Then grouchiness sets in.

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Registered hardmill's Avatar
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    The Yasda we have has a 20,000rpm spindle and its actually
    not that bad. Never ran a Makino though.
    Although lately everything sounds pleasant from the office

    PEACE



  6. #86
    Mfg Engineer Scott_bob's Avatar
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    The Makino and the Yasda both have CAT tapers right?
    Or maybe, a big shepard option?

    No HSK, with Japanese CNC machines until very recently right?
    We're going to have to discuss what people like about these options here on this forum...

    Scott_bob

    Scott_bob


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    our makinos are hsk63.The spindle doesn't sound to bad when running.Hardmill i will get back to you with some info on some of my applications and ask for some advice. thanks alot. We bought a bunch of balanced holders fromm Command Tool.

    rollie


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    Curious,
    Has anyone else tried the BPT test?



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    I have updated the charts here for BPT performance.

    Check it out! page 3...
    Anyone else surprised by the performance of the Yasnak?

    Sincerely,
    Scott_bob

    Scott_bob


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    Originally posted by Scott_bob
    I have updated the charts here for BPT performance.

    Check it out! page 3...
    Anyone else surprised by the performance of the Yasnak?

    Sincerely,
    Scott_bob
    I am a little. I knew it would be very good, but geez!

    Here's a re-post of my results (from the Fadal thread)
    This Just In...

    (Post #49 )

    While I won't share with you the results of the BPT test on my 2000 model HAAS, (it was pretty bad), my 2002 model ran it in 6:04, with the display set to the Alarm page so no resources would be wasted in displaying the code as it executes. (This has been an issue for me in the past on other controllers.) Then, for pewps and chuckles, I ran it in Prog Dislpay mode, so it displayed the code as it ran, and it ran in 6:00. Go figure.

    This is a VF3, 40 tool side mount turret, without HSM. (There's prolly about 300-400 pounds of fixturing on the table, not sure if that will affect anything)
    'Rekd

    Matt
    San Diego, Ca

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    ( )_) ( )_)--)_)

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


  11. #91
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    Scott_bob
    I too would like that program. I am going to have the high speed option installed on a 01 Haas VF4. I would like to see the difference. Gary



  12. #92
    Mfg Engineer Scott_bob's Avatar
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    Kool Parts,

    The standard Haas control should give you:

    6 minutes, 0 seconds

    http://www.cnczone.com/showthread.ph...5&pagenumber=3

    The HSM option should give you:

    2 minutes and 6 seconds
    send me your e-mail address in a PM, I'll send you the BPT program.

    Have fun,
    Scott_bob

    Scott_bob


  13. #93
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    The point of this comparison is to show that the Rubicon CNC control Retrofit in "second place" is faster than 10 competing controls at high speed motion control.

    Anyone else have an opinion?

    Last edited by Scott_bob; 01-13-2004 at 05:10 PM.
    Scott_bob


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    Hi all,
    We have a 12 year old Makino Horizontal .
    Using a hardmills without balanced toolholders with circular interpolation produced some excellent results within 2 tenths of position and very close to round.
    Also had an angled hole breaking in to another . Again position very close but with with taper (nothing suprising)
    Finish was phenominal.
    Given that this is far from a "new" machine was astounded.
    All in all very inspiring results from very low spec parameters to work with.
    Material was 55 rC
    depths about 1.8 inches long
    10 thous diameter stock

    I have heard that the Yasdas are the best, although pricey they will deliver.
    Have heard other brands that they cannot hold the tolerances.


    What cutters do you recommend using?
    What toolholding systems are you using?

    Will have to wade through the posts as not been motivated to visit and have a lot to catch up on.

    Hope to provide more input.
    thanks



  15. #95
    Registered hardmill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilson
    Hi all,

    I have heard that the Yasdas are the best, although pricey they will deliver.
    Have heard other brands that they cannot hold the tolerances.
    I have had the pleasure of running Yasdas for the last 5 yrs and as you said
    they are the best out. I don't even blink at .0002 tol.
    I'll see if I can post some pics for you tommorrow.
    As far as cutters go I use a mix of OSG, Mitsubishi (miracle cutters- formerly kobelco)
    Robbjack and some fullerton mills for cutting vents.

    PEACE



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    Back in the Uk i saw the miracle cutters from Kobelco at a tool show and was impressed visually, although not tried. They have changed to Mitsubishi now i gather.
    OSG were the tools used in our experiment and well satisfied with the performance.
    RobbJack CA ? & Fullerton is it PA ? have heard of but not overly familiar. Will check these out to see if it suits our application.

    I know people are sceptical when a 0.0002" tolerance is talked about freely in hard materials but when you see results that come from these machines,they can be believed. I can honestly say for one that being a Japanese machine is bound to have a good reputation for quality.

    Not wishing to "knock, flame, put down" the German, American,British machine tools of which i have had extensive experience with all, they tend to lack the little extra the "Japanese" put into their build.
    I am not talking of whether it has a better control but the overall satisfaction durability and longevity.
    Take for instance the era of the ??????? Seiki from 15-20 years ago.
    Look at how many are still surviving and producing excellent parts.They have had the daylights knocked out of them and still come back for more.
    However the newer versions/copies same name ,different colour built under licence in various countries do not in any way shape or form live up to the Japanese pedigree .

    The Roeders machine i believe is a nice piece of equipment also but do not know if they are prevalent in the USA.
    How would this compare to a Yasda i wonder?

    Many thanks for the info on cutters etc.
    Also there is a lot of talk of Cad cam sytems.What most of these lack is the post processor that is excellent and compares with the package itself.
    Enough for now!
    will await comment.



  17. #97
    Mfg Engineer Scott_bob's Avatar
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    FYI

    The popular BPT test program is now here on the zone for downloading:

    http://www.cnczone.com/modules.php?n...category&cid=4

    As well as the summary Word document...

    You can easily determine the performance of your own CNC control at generating motion thru "tight" .0005 span point data, the most common 3D toolpath geometry. Not everyone is going nurbs...

    Have fun,

    Scott_bob


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    hi Guys,

    Just for ****ts and giggles I ran this test on my machine. It's a Hurco VM1 with AVC. It ran in 51 seconds. Not bad for a lil Hurco



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    That is great to hear about the Hurco. I have been watching this thread for a long time to see if anything is faster than the Rubicon control and it looks like the Hurco is very close. May I ask what the AVS is on the Hurco and how old is your machine?

    Donovan


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    The AVS is Advanced Velocity Control. It allows for faster processing time and more look ahead. I can't remember the exact stats but could look them up if needed. The machine is 1 year old. I thought the time was pretty respectable compared to some of the much higher cost machines on that list. cheers.



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