What is high speed machining

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    Registered Klox's Avatar
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    Default What is high speed machining

    Hardmill, Jimmy would you two gentleman please tell a guy like me what is high speed machining exactly? I'm only used to SLOW (edm)speed machining

    Klox

    Similar Threads:
    *** KloX ***
    I'm lazy, I'm only "sparking" when the EDM is running....


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    Registered hardmill's Avatar
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    Default HSM

    Originally posted by hardmill
    As simply as i can put it hsm is taking smaller, lighter cuts
    at high feedrates. Special tools are required as well as the
    machines ability to take in the code. Machine also needs
    to be equipped with an acceleration & deceleration options
    so it will slow down in tight corners. It doe'nt always require
    all those variables but then you may lose on accuracy, tool life,
    etc. An older machine could feasible be used and still gain
    positive results. Hard machining requires similiar variables.

    Generally you start at about 600sfm depending on matl., mach.,
    toolpath ,tooling, etc...



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    Registered Klox's Avatar
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    Where would one take the high speed machining route instead of doing things the "normal" way.
    Is it when there is a lot of roughing ou to do?
    You can actually move this whole thread and attach it to the one JohnM started.

    Klox

    *** KloX ***
    I'm lazy, I'm only "sparking" when the EDM is running....


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    Member JIMMY's Avatar
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    I would say that high speed machining would always be the way to go unless you have soom super tool that can take massive amounts of material off. If you have the right feeds and speeds you can realy take material off. like HardMill said, you should have a machine that can handle it. You would be amazed to see how fast the removel of material is with high speed machining.


    JIMMY

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default What is high speed machining?

    HSM is an acronym, it is a word used in the industry that has stuck in our heads. What it should be called is Maximized. There is no set standard for HSM, that is why we all are asking this question over and over again and no one can give us a solid answer. The anwser is - HSM has nothing to do with lighter cuts and higher feed rates that a machine might offer, special cutters, controllers, etc. It has to do with dynamics. You can purchase a 5 million dollar machine with all the fancy stuff but you can’t make it sing without dynamics, period. See MoldMaking Technology in June for Chatter Myths by Randy Harper also see http://members.cox.net/camminc/



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    SWEET, thank you camminc and Randy Harper. Nothing like a little truth in adverticeing!



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    Mfg Engineer Scott_bob's Avatar
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    I disagree with camminc!

    HSM is a blending of multiple technologies, not just one that is claims to be the cure all.
    Maximized, yes. Motion control begins in the brain of a CNC machine. G-code is an input to the machining center, motion is the output. The best inputs cannot produce good output if the CPU is crap. If we improve the central nervous system of a CNC machine by installing an Active Dynamic Feed Compensation system and ignore the brain or CPU, then we have spent money on the wrong technology 1st.

    Active Dynamic Feed Compensation (ADFC) is good technology for a CNC with good performance motion control. Also, ADFC is limited to processes that can be detected by vibration and acoustic measurement. Mold machining where HSM benefits are the greatest, ADFC benefits are marginal because during finishing, the vibration and acoustic methods of monitoring are not sensitive enough yet, or the performance signature cannot be identified cost effectively . Unless I am misinformed, the vibration or acoustic signature must be taught to the system before compensation dynamics can offer benefit. Molds are never production items where a process can be monitored and tuned to optimum performance. Who has time for this? In a production run, that’s a different story…

    I maintain that in order to take advantage of maximized productivity in CNC machining, you have to systematically address the issues. Make a list of the contributing factors, depending on your CNC, at the top of your list of variables will be the most significant factor. Our’s is the Fadal control, contributing by far the most, in poor performance.

    Camminc:
    “The answer is - HSM has nothing to do with lighter cuts and higher feed rates that a machine might offer, special cutters, controllers, etc”

    HSM cannot succeed without these “factors” that camminc said: “The answer is - HSM has nothing to do with”…

    Let’s not replace one myth, with another…

    Scott_bob


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    Agreed. There are many things to be considered,
    Your going to have to throw all variables into the mix.
    When one decides to go this route all these factors need
    to be addressed and reseached.
    Thanks for your replies gentlemen.

    PEACE



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    To Scott_bob: Hi, this is Randy. Let me ask you a question? Have you ever done an impact test on a machine tool cutter assembly (Stackup) and then diagnosed a FRF or Stability Chart that was produced by that process to use for the machining process, in conventional or HSM?

    I have done it hundreds of times, I am on the floor right along with the machine operator doing real time measurements, improving the machining operation. I have worked with many different machines, conventional and HSM, all kinds of controllers, all kinds of cpu’s, all kinds of cutters, etc. It doesn’t matter to me what machine tool is used I still get the results of the machine dynamics in the end at the end of the tool tip because that is where it all shows up, period. I agree that it is a good idea to use the best controllers, cpu’s etc that one can purchase but it still doesn’t tell you what RPM to run the cutter at to maximize. Lets face it, no company is using the same controllers and cpu’s on their machines and that certainly does not tell the operator or programmer what RPM to use.

    It takes only a few minutes to do an Impact Test and get the results, it is not time consuming as you might feel. It is just as useful on a single mold as it is for production runs. If your running the wrong RPM then the depth of cut will suffer along with finish and MRR. I am not sure what your statement of “the vibration or acoustic signature must be taught to the system before compensation dynamics can offer benefit” means? The dynamic signature measured at the tool tip is a direct result of the overall machine tool system, there is no being taught applied, it is what it is and it can be measured to tell one what RPM and Depth of cut to take in a matter of seconds.

    The statement “Molds are never production items where a process can be monitored and tuned to optimum performance. Who has time for this? In a production run, that’s a different story” That is an assumed statement which is not true, if you have ever done an Impact Test or an Audio Chatter Recognition reading then you would not be saying that. This is the kind of attitude that I have dealt with of many companies and the one greatest reason why they are not maximizing operations, it is sad that it is so common place in the industry. Hence, it is why I always start off my presentations to audiences with” Forget antiquated ways, go beyond your comfort zone”.

    Here is just one instance of going out of ones comfort zone: 1” ball cutter, steel cutter body with abrasive particle diamond attached, machining what is called a T-shirt – composite material, running 4,000 rpm, HSK 63A interface, 18,000 rpm max spindle, 6” OAL gage length, lots of noise and vibration during the cut, operator scared to run it due to unstableness. Myself, sitting in the tool crib about 30 yards away, I hear the noise and decide to try something. I use my laptop and audio chatter recognition software, stick the microphone out the door and take a reading. This took about 60 seconds to do, a dominant chatter frequency shows up, the software suggests an RPM, I walk up to the operator, give him the RPM to try – 8,000 RPM. He freaks, says no way, was really scared now but agreed. I take the Stackup tool and check static balance, it is in a standard TG collet holder, checks okay, put the Stackup tool back in the machine and the operator runs it at 8,000 rpm. Result, cut stabilizes, operator resumes cut and finishes part in a timely manner now, I document parameters on my dynamic database for that tool so programming will know what rpm to use of this Stackup again. All this occurred in about 3 minutes and saved one heck of a lot of time on the machining operation, let alone the wear and tear on the machine tool, cutter and part. I have done this many times over for one piece jobs, this was a mold shop by the way.

    I suggest you have a reputable person come in and show you how to use an Impact Test or Audio Chatter Recognition or you take a class on it - so you can experience the process. Forget antiquated ways, go beyond your comfort zone.

    See video's of the process at: http://members.cox.net/camminc/



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    Mfg Engineer Scott_bob's Avatar
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    camminc,

    Thanks for the info... I'll put this data in my things to do pile.
    I'll get to it right after I replace the control on my CNC machines...
    It would be like putting the cart in front of the horse otherwise.

    Sincerely,

    Scott_bob


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    I have no idea what you mean by a cart and a horse? Machining has nothing to do with a cart and a horse? This is the kind of antiquated stuff I am talking about, spend all kinds of money replacing controllers on CNC machines because one guy thinks that is what will solve all problems. What will they do when they run into chatter, which will happen. The controllers won't solve that problem unless it can tell what frequency the chatter is at and then adjust RPM, which there is a product out there that will do that as well. But that is another story.

    I have been watching this type of attitude for years, it's disturbing how companies will send thousands to millions of dollars on a machine tool / programming software and elaborate computer stations but they pucker up when it comes to supporting / protecting / maximizing them with dynamic equipment. For a 10th of the money of one machine and it can be used plant wide - they just don't seem to be able to change, they just keep using the same old methods and ways of thinking while companies that do take the leap prosper and take away there business. It's mind boggling to watch. This equipment will even do modal analysis of a machine tool to maintance it, but that again is another story.



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    Member HuFlungDung's Avatar
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    Chill, Camminc,

    A cart is designed to be pulled by a horse, and not a horse to be pulled by a cart. Quite a common idiom, actually, but maybe not where you're from

    Scott_bob was just meaning that he should worry about getting a controller that is capable of accurate high feedrate, before he begins to worry about a 40,000 rpm tool vibration.

    First you get good, then you get fast. Then grouchiness sets in.

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Mfg Engineer Scott_bob's Avatar
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    Camminc,

    Give me passion anyday...

    I respect a guy with an opinion. Really...
    Frankly, it's a wellcome change around here. When I first came to this site I thought we (the community) could have a healthy discussion. This has not happened IMO. It takes more than a few paragraphs, way more than a few sentances to get an opinion out there and be understood.

    To you points about Dynamic Feed Compensation, they are pretty well laid out. I don't know a lot about this technology as I'm sure you can tell. I think a lot of us here would like to hear more. Be patient, remember I don't have the data you have.

    Best regards,

    Scott_bob


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    Scott-bob: Hi, this is Randy. I am not here to hassle anyone, I am here because I care about the subject of discussion. I don't know much but I do know alot about frequency analysis, shrink fit and tool holder balancing. I apologize for any attacks upon you or anyone else, This this type of discussion is what it takes to get attention on these forums, cause a stir, get emotions up. Of course there will be skeptics and that is good, it will energize us all to look a little deeper to find answers. l simply do tooling and that is what I know, I have seen millions of dollars spent on controllers, programming software and programmers but it still does not maximize the cut where maximizing tooling does as they fail. It is an awesome feeling to go against a million dollar machine with a laptop computer against all their support of programming and engineering and kick some butt. Mouths wide open, faces in despair when it happens, shock as they experience it. Only a few submit though. I am sick of programmers being put on a pedestal while people in the shop are really doing things. It is a terrible problem for us all to venture and it happens every where in the US and it is sad to see, our great country with no unity in machining practices. The Europeans are using this technology and kicking our butt as we speak, we need to catch them or they will pass us. They seem to catch on better.

    The cut is controllable by knowing frequencies, which enhance motion of the controller and cpu being used, it all works together, not against each other as it seems everyone wants to make it because of tunnel vision. The cart you speak of also carries frequency control, without it the cart is only half full of tricks, either in front of or behind, it does not matter. Machinist, programmers, engineering, management, must realize and submit, that all their great knowledge is not enough alone, combine technology, work together, don't shut out the little guy in the tool crib that does frequency analysis, for he is on your side. He just might surprise you. I was taught this stuff by PHD’s as a tool and cutter grinder / presetter / purchasing, just by luck, a dumb ole tool and cutter grinder, I have no masters degree, no AA degree, but everywhere I go I see no engineers that can not do what I do with this stuff because they don't apply. Most wash there hands of it simply because they think it is difficult to learn and do, no one carries the ball. If it was so difficult then how did I, a simple man ever get the hang of it? They prefer to sit in there chairs making big bucks because management thinks they do it all, analyzing things, engineers doing their engineering thing, while I am out there making it happen. I get no support from them where I go, because of antiquated ways. Only a few actually take it in and reap the reward of doing so. Only a few open their eyes and submit, that there could be another way to approach this. Read the articles on my site, see the savings made by companies, who take the step. Let there testimonies lead the way.



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    Camminc,

    You're not helping your cause by venting your frustration. The data from your technology would be better served by discussing the the benefits of the technology not your experience along the way. We are not here to understand your frustrations...

    The title of this thread is:

    What is high speed machining...

    What do you say we just stay on that topic.

    Scott_bob


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    I have had access to all the nice little toys you speak of
    Cam and in my opinion their "NICE". Thats it.
    You can get the same job, material, machine, holders,and
    even operator and I can guarantee it won't run the same
    next time. I would much rather an operator have working
    knowledge of problem solving then having someone come
    out to floor everytime we change parts or tools.
    Machining is ever changing and one who works on the floor
    knows that. To say that this little gadget or this little trinket
    will do the trick is insane. Your train of thought sounds more
    to me like that of an engineer, This is right and that is
    final."WRONG"
    With better than 20 exper. on the floor, programming , planning,
    designing tools I'd put my skills against any contraption.
    And I do work in the engineering dept of an aerospace co.
    Don't get me wrong I am educated and very well versed in the
    understanding of harmonics and their effects on tooling.
    But generally to acheive the vibration reduction we are speaking
    of you need to slow down, due to the fact that the machine tool
    can't handle the speed or feeds to get over the hump where
    the harmonics are reduced. The tools you speak of are nice and
    I imagine they have their place, but employers want their product
    out today.

    Thank You for your time

    PEACE



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    Gold Member Bloy2004's Avatar
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    On the contrary, I'm enjoying every aspect of this discussion!
    continue!!

    Klox..did you ever imagine what your initial question would foster?

    Last edited by Bloy2004; 03-01-2004 at 04:46 PM.


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    Glad your enjoying yourself.
    Thats what this forum is for , Discussion.


    And dancing..

    PEACE



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    Member Mike F's Avatar
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    It's good to see a little passion out there - someone who believes in what they are doing but it is probably true to say that we need a balance of both, experienced machinists and new technology, to move forward with both accepting the other has something to offer - without either having a blinkered approach (another horse, cart analogy)

    History (experience) teaches us many things, one of which is the way forward - we need that union of old and new.

    Mike



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What is high speed machining

What is high speed machining