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  1. #61
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    Default Hsm

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott_bob
    There you go again!
    I did not say selecting the right RPM is a waste of time.
    I just don't have to use your brand of dynamics to know what RPM to use. I use experience, and of course I refer to cutter mfgr's specs for the material I'm programming for, and I use Excel (spreadsheet) and it works great. I don't need a database to tell me what RPM to use.

    You have said:
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=16
    "Hardmill needs to get over it"?

    I know it's not just me who is irritated by your lack of consideration for other people’s points of view. When you make statements excluding all other points of view except your own, you are being arrogant.

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=17

    A lot of us here just believe your input has its place, just not the most important factor. Why don't you take a little of your own medicine. Get over it...

    Example:
    Here is a guy that is well respected in the mold machining industry.
    Todd Schuett, wrote this article in 1997.

    No mention of RPM as a significant variable, but a lot about the control and feed rate...

    http://www.ctemag.com/viewArticle.asp?ARTICLE_ID=117
    BTW, Mr Schuett is a competiter to the control that I chose, but I acknowledge his expertise in the field. You've got to be this way too if you are going to be an effective communicator.

    Sincerely,
    To Scott_Bob. Here is your last statement to Camminc.

    There you go again!
    I did not say selecting the right RPM is a waste of time.
    I just don't have to use your brand of dynamics to know what RPM to use. I use experience, and of course I refer to cutter mfgr's specs for the material I'm programming for, and I use Excel (spreadsheet) and it works great. I don't need a database to tell me what RPM to use.

    What you did say was:
    By the way, let me just say right here, that it is just down right goofy to think that the right RPM is all you need, to do HPM (High Performance Machining). Come on, a lot of us have many years of experience running CNC machines and I gotta say spindle speed is important don't get me wrong but, the effect on the features holding tolerance is not that great. Controlling chatter, oh yah, it's the biggest contributor. Our objective in using CNC machines is not to use them chatter free, but to make parts within specification, as fast as possible. Some day, I too will have to look at eliminating chatter; right now I don't have that problem. I guess that's because my spreadsheet does work, and I use the right RPM when I write the CNC programs.

    Camminc’s reply: Here you go again, with the experience thing Scott_bob. Each machine has it’s own dynamic’s and each tool put into it makes those dynamics, which show up at the tool tip, which can be measured to create a stable cut. When you change the gage length of a tool, tool holder, over hang, type of tool, many other things, dynamics change, meaning a best stable cut changes from all these entities. So what I assume your saying is, you have all this knowledge and information in your mind from experience and or it is all in your spreadsheet? Sorry to say, I do not think you or any body is capable of it. Many times I have walked out into the shop and changed rpm of an operation from chosen parameters of programmers like your self to create a stable cut from an unstable cut, with the use of an impact test or audio or already collected data from a database. Over and over again it happens because programmers like yourself think the way you do. Please, don’t give yourself so much credit, it’s all in your mind. Cutter manufacture spec’s do not tell a programmer what rpm to run a cutter at, because they know it is a matter of dynamics on each machine tool. They might give maximum sfm for material, but to state a specific rpm is certainly not going to happen. Therefore, programmers pick an rpm, and if it is not a known dynamic rpm of a specific nomenclature of a tool in a specific machine, then it is a guess. No matter how you look at it. Chances are it might be right, but most of the time it is not. Telling people in this forum that your experience is better than all the research done at Universities like University of Florida, North Carolina State and many others around the country by professors and students all around the world, shows your lack your lack of consideration for other people’s points of view. Knowing what I know from being trained by experts in the field, it is an insult to all of us to hear this kind of thought. You discount expert events because of your belief’s, therefore discouraging all the readers of this forum from what you write to not believe anything but your way. People in this forum are here to find answers, not just your belief’s but all of us. I see it all the time, your ways of thinking about HSM are antiquated, outdated and misinformed. You have never experienced an impact test or audio chatter recognition, yet you give your opinion. You have no say so about them if you have no experience of them. Instead of discouraging it, why don’t you try and experience it, then make an opinion. That goes for a database also, talk with educated people about tracking information before you say something about a database that you know nothing about.



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    Default Could You Define "Impact Test"

    And tell us how it is done?

    I'd be interested in some specifics. What equipment is required? From what I've read on this forum, the result is associated with a particular tool setup (apparently called a "stack") and a particular machine.

    How is the machine configured? What measurements are made?

    Suppose I wanted to do one on my machine (or several "stacks" on my machine). What equipment should I buy? Who sells it and how much does it cost? What software would I need to buy, and who makes it?

    Is there a "do it yourself" book on this?

    Thanks,

    Ken

    Kenneth Lerman
    55 Main Street
    Newtown, CT 06470


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    To Lerman:
    I will try and give as much information as possible without getting into to much detail. You are correct, Each tool used on a machine is called a "Stackup". The "Stackup" consists of the tool, holder, gage length, number of teeth, tool description, picture if wanted, stick out, cutter material, etc. This "Stackup" is put into the spindle of a machine and an impact test is performed. The spindle is not running. This is done by using a laptop or portable desktop computer that is used with a product called "MetalMax".

    What is MetalMax?

    See: http://mfg-labs.com/
    go to "Products"
    Click "MetalMax"
    Then click "TXF" (this is the software it will use for the impact test.)

    Once performed the impact test provides a stability lobe and a frequency response function which will tell the user the stable rpm's and depth of cut for this Stackup. You can view stability lobes at:
    http://clik.to/camm
    go to: Web Page with downloads that will help You understand CAMM

    This information will provide clear rpm's to use to maximize your cutting operation. Remember, a programmer not using this method will call for a certain tool that worked prior, but if it is setup differently in gage length, different holder, different machine it will not have the same dynamics as before an will run differently. So, MetalMax uses a database called "CHiPS" to keep all the information needed to make it all work later if you want to use this stackup again, which is desired. CHiPS keeps track of stability lobes and FRF's taken for each Stackup, all Stackup set up nomenclature and if you want spindle information, machine information, balance, cutting forces, power consumption, etc. It provides a multitude of information, mrr, high and low chip load with feed rate calculations, specific power of material being cut, tool holder manufacture numbers, cutting tool manufacturing numbers, etc. Many fields are multiple choice for easy input or can be input by machine identification. Detailed reports, by cutter diameter, machine stackups, etc.

    Now all a programmer has to do is look in the database and pick a tool he wants. It will have best stable rpm's to use and all related information for the tool crib, presetting to set it up correctly.

    A: A stackup on same models of machine tool will be similar in dynamics in those machines, so you can use a stackup on same model machine tool across the board.

    B: Training is included with the MetalMax system

    C: Tips: MetalMax is a very effective tool to use in modal analysis also. It comes with that software also - PC Scope and TXF. For instance, if you use a stackup from information given by the database later and it does not work the same then chances are the machine tool has changed in some way. In another words, machine tool dynamics have changed for some reason, spindle, travel, axis, etc. I have found this to happen, especially on some 5 axis machines, which I inform maintance so they can repair the machine tool. PC Scope can be used to take a blueprint of the machine tool to monitor conditions called “Modal Analysis”

    D: Eventually many tools are impact tested and information is recorded in the database. The more the better until enough impact tests have been taken so that less are needed as time goes by. You just keep using the same stackup's provided in the database to provide maximum cutting parameters.

    E: I don't know the cost of the system. They provide all necessary software. Notebook or desktop can be provided also.

    F: I believe that audio chatter recognition is also included with MetalMax. “Harmonizer” It is used to fine-tune cutting operations even further. This is done with the machine running

    G: Impact tests only take a few minutes per tool to perform. It is not time consuming like people might suggest. The data can be arraigned and reviewed on the spot or later as needed. Impact testing minimizes or totally eliminates running test cuts, which are very time consuming.

    H: I used MetalMax when I was doing the duties of tool crib attendant, tool and cutter grinding, presetting, tool purchasing in a shop. It was a mold shop, two 16,000 rpm Henri Line Gantry mills, HSK 63A, 6 axis. For me it was very useful, I had all information needed to setup the tool properly and the programmers had the data they needed for programming. I also used it on SNK five axis and other standard conventional rpm machines with success. It doesn’t just apply to high speed, it applies to any machine tool.

    I: The MetalMax system is not dedicated to any one machine tool, it can be used on all machine tools, including lathes.

    The person to contact is: Tim Palmer – Shamrock Industries based in California. Tim can answer any further questions, provide brochures and demo cd’s for more information. You can reach Tim at 626-355-8798 or palmer@mfg-labs.com



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    Default Thank You

    That's pretty much the type of stuff I was looking for.

    Ken

    Kenneth Lerman
    55 Main Street
    Newtown, CT 06470


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    Mfg Engineer Scott_bob's Avatar
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    Camminc,

    I'm not going to even respond to your hopeless misrepresentation of what I've said or think...

    How about giving us some references on your product?
    If you don't want to publish that kind of info, and I can understand that, how about suggesting that some of your customers offer some of their results here?

    Anyone else like to hear from someone else, anyone else about dynamic analysis?

    You can't beat a good referral,

    Scott_bob


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    Lerma: MLI offers a - CHiPS Cutter Optimization Service - probably more to your liking as a consultant. They will go to the shop needing help and do impact tests on cutters then provide the data to them, so they do not need to purchase the equipment, but want to maximize certain operations. See:
    http://members.cox.net/cammsales/CHiPS.pdf

    Scott_Bob: MetalMAX technology was originally conceived in the late 1980's. It has been in wide spread use for over 15 years, first as a DOS based compact analyzer and now as a kit that can be loaded on any PC or machine tool control. Leading Universities using the kit include:

    University of Florida: Machine Tool Research Center (MTRC)
    Professor Tony Schmidtz: EMAIL - tschmitz@ufl.edu

    University of North Carolina (UNC Charlotte)
    Professor Scott Smith: EMAIL - kssmith@uncc.edu

    University of Sheffield, U.K. (AMRC)
    Professor Keith Ridgeway: EMAIL - k.ridgway.ac.uk

    Mikron:
    http://members.cox.net/cammsales/Mikron Presentation.pps

    (NCDMM) National Center for Defense Manufacturing and Machining:
    http://members.cox.net/cammsales/NCDMM-MLI Press Release.pdf

    MetalMAX Overview:
    http://members.cox.net/cammsales/MetalMAXOverview.pps

    Chatter:
    http://members.cox.net/cammsales/Chatter.pps

    Harmonizer:
    http://members.cox.net/cammsales/Harmonizer.pps

    Dynamic Database:
    http://members.cox.net/cammsales/CHiPS.pdf

    Instructional courses that include cutting dynamics and other related MetalMAX technology are offered routinely by both: SME and TechSlove
    Contact them for reference to courses:

    Other references I know of are these but there are many others, contact Tim Palmer at 626-355-8798 or palmer@mfg-labs.com for information.

    Sikorski, Northrop, TRW, ACCRA, Mikron, Makino, Fisher, Rolls Royce, Lucas, Airbus, Boeing.



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    Quote Originally Posted by camminc
    Lerma: MLI offers a - CHiPS Cutter Optimization Service - probably more to your liking as a consultant. They will go to the shop needing help and do impact tests on cutters then provide the data to them, so they do not need to purchase the equipment, but want to maximize certain operations. See:
    http://members.cox.net/cammsales/CHiPS.pdf
    I assume the above was directed at me.

    I'm a software consultant who happens to be involved in doing some machining for a project I'm working on. I don't have the machining equipment for HSM, but I'm always interested in technology.

    After seeing the variety of posts here, I had wondered if you were just another "con" man selling snake oil, but so far have not been able to figure out how you, personally, make a buck from you postings. My conclusion is that you are an honest zealot (no insult intented). I took the time to read one of the papers from the University of Florida and believe that the technology works. Some of my other observations (from my reading):

    1 -- You must have a system where the performance is limited by the tool and its mounting system. There is no point in analyzing a tool if performance is limited by insecure hold downs, systems with major backlash, or other "slop" in the system.

    2 -- I wasn't aware of this before my recent reading, but HSM is about machining aluminum or other materials where the performance is limited by the mechanical performance of the tool and its holder. If the issue is getting rid of the heat, wearing out the tool, or other issues one encounters machining harder materials, HSM (at least as defined by U of Fla) is not the solution.

    Thanks for the educational reading.

    Regards,

    Ken

    Kenneth Lerman
    55 Main Street
    Newtown, CT 06470


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    Mr. Kenneth Lerman: I checked out your profile and resume, I am very impressed. You posses a BA in Mathematics, from Cornell University and black belt in Jujitsu. I won't dare mouth off to you like with Scott_bob and Hardmill - You back up your words with facts, truth, action and being logical.

    Seems with your talent, you can appreciate impact testing and dynamics, there is a lot of math involved. Although I can't do math very well, Dr. Thomas S. Delio of MLI who trained me handles that part with ease. Tom Delio, Scott Smith, Bob Winfough, Jiri Tlusty all from U of Fla, Jan Jeppson of Boeing are the ones that taught me dynamics. I believe Tom was a big part of creating the algoritums for the audio chatter recognition program - "Harmonizer" and "CRAC". You take this all serious, unlike others on this forum who continue to attack the idea as though it is a so called "Magic Pill", laughing it off, causing other readers to not take it serious. Many discount it before ever researching it. So thanks for hanging in there and actually checking things out to see that it really works.

    I can only add one other thing for the readers on this forum. The company I worked for when they purchased the impact testing equipment, MetalMax, acquired a 1.2 million dollar, 6 axis, 16,000 rpm, hsk63a, Henri Line gantry with all the fancy bells and whistles of controllers, software, laser du-dads, temperature sensors, climate control, the works for mold making with these machines. A 25 million dollar revenue company, a year. $125,000 workstations for programmers, Catia, Unigraphics, etc, paying programmers twice what I earned, operators paid more too. Shrink fit, special designed cutters, coatings, balancing and yet one thing still remained - Chatter. When the smoke finally cleared, it was a simple tool and cutter grinder that went out to the machine when chatter occurred, programmers scratching there head about what to do, operators without answers, management wondering why it doesn’t work. This tool and cutter grinder, tool crib attendant, presetter who had no prior experience with HSM simply did and impact test and or audio chatter recognition on the spot, within minutes told the operator what rpm to run, and whalla, "The Magic Pill" appeared - chatter elimination, a stable cut occurred. This is simply not possible?

    Now if a simple tool and cutter grinder could do that then something is certainly wrong with the way programming was approaching things. Yet, programming continued to not comply, like a few others I mentioned on this forum. Why? I can only assume because they do not want to admit that programming, controllers, motions are not the all mighty of HSM. To admit that dynamics is a critical part of machining would be very difficult for them to admit. It is so ridiculous, yet I have seen it over and over again, everywhere I go. Only a few companies opened there minds and used it as intended, Sikorski is one. Sikorski was the first to purchase the system, the company I worked for was the second. Others slowly follow and prospered. More are realizing the benefits as time goes by, Boeing has been doing it for years.

    I am simply trying to get thru to people on this forum to know there are other methods. I have been there and am simply sharing my experiences, because I am so thankful to having this knowledge. When I asked questions, knowledable people in the field gave me answers.

    Again, thanks Mr. Lerman for your input and opinion.



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    Default Libor Pírko

    Basicly High speed machining is high RPM by low torque. That is all. Best Regards Libor Pírko



  10. #70
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    NO!

    What you just discribed is only a High Speed Spindle. This is only one component of HSM. It is by no means all of it.

    There have been some here, mention that HSM is more than just high RPM or maximized RPM, and it is...
    If you try to simplify the description of HSM by basic terminology you'll miss represent the consept. Make no mention of high feed rates and what it takes to get there (high feeds) and you'll not have the idea. It takes a great deal of knowledge of each factor contributing to high feed machining than most people realize.
    Those who have tried to get into high feeds, know what I'm talking about...

    HSM cannot be defined in basic terms, as it is a high performance technique with all the variables in control...

    Sincerely,

    Scott_bob


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    What is High Speed Machining?

    High-speed machining (HSM) may be defined in various ways. First, with regard to attainable cutting speeds, it is suggested that operating at cutting speeds significantly higher than those typically utilized for a particular material may be termed HSM. Second, theoretical and experimental analyses have shown that increased local stability occurs when the tooth passing frequency of the cutter is equal to the natural frequency (or any of its fractional harmonics) of the most flexible system mode. Selection of the maximum available spindle speed that corresponds to one of these stable tooth passing frequencies is also referred to as HSM. For further explaination

    Please see: http://highspeedmachining.mae.ufl.ed...peed_machining



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    Once the general manager was out on the shop floor and he turned up the spindle override to 150% and exclaimed:
    We paid for 15k spindles, why don't we use them?

    I guess with his extensive accounting experience he could see these things that a mere machinist could not. He got promoted and has since moved on to bigger and better things. I'll miss him.

    I guess by the above definition this guy was really showing us HSM...

    Scott_bob


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    Well it has been a long time since I have posted on this forum. I pretty much had given up because many people that post most on this forum, feel that HSM is accomplished by what programmers program and the belief that one can only HSM with the latest technology of a machine and it's programming, cpu, controller, etc. The fact is, that the tool tip of the cutter is many times the limiting factor of operation, programming only plays a part of the pieces of the puzzle. Many machines can HSM very successfully if one knows a machines dynamics and certainly most programmer’s arbitrally choose a spindle rpm and depth of cut of operation which simply cause nothing but problems because they do not understand nor care to understand frequencies. Most engineers follow the same suit, because they have not done their homework either, nor care to. Every engineer knows about frequencies from college, but very few apply it in machining, why I do not know. Even when they are educated by a PHD on the matter, they still do not conform.

    Either way, it is nearly impossible for anyone to know what RPM or depth of cut to run a cutter at simply because they do not know frequencies or flexibility (Dynamics) of the cutter at its tool tip. To know this one needs to use equipment to tell one so. From my point of view

    “One can purchase any kind of machine tool to HSM, but certainly one can not operate that machine tool to it’s maximum potential without knowledge of it’s dynamics”



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    Very interesting reading. In my opinion you are all correct in some respect and the true answer is a combination of every thing. Optimise the speeds and feeds to the cutter dynamics but that won't matter spit if you cant position the axes accurately which would be wasted if the tool path wasn't optimised and that doesnt mean anything if you cant get rid of the swarf and keep the cutter cool. I spent a lot of time in the early 80s developing high speed mills for a company and it was a real blast and boy did we learn a lot but the main thing was that to be successful at high speed machining we had to get every factor right from the control and program to our cutting technology, even our guarding system. Imagine our surprise when a tip from a 4" face mill running at 40000rpm came off and went straight through 1/4" lexan, made us think. To us High Speed machining was to signifcantly reduce the machinig time of a component programmed on a conventional machine or to provide improved accurracy and finish or a combination of both but within an acceptable cost. Unfortunately at that time we didn't manage the latter.



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    Allyd: Please answer this one question? Have you ever performed an impact test – called Dynamic Characterization - resulting in a stability lobe and frequency response function to assist your decision of programming parameters for an operation of machining in conventional or HSM? It seems that Rolls Royce, Boeing, TRW, Northrop, Airbus, Bell Helicopter, Toyoda and a number of other businesses seem to fell that Dynamic Characterization does matter spit. See http://www.technicut.ltd.uk/Products/MetalMAX.html or http://www.cammhsm.com or http://www.blueswarf.com/products_metalmax.html



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    sandvik has a calculator for this type of thing for their tools it calculates based on insert type ,material ,#of teeth ,depth of cut and engagement it breaks it down to cubic inches of material per minute the lighter the cut the higher the rpm ,the last company i was at we did high speed machining , a 3/4 3flt insert em can easily run in mild steel at 7800rpm at 120-180 in/min at .1 depth of cut , this is being conservative we accomplished good parts at an extremely fast rate and got better insert life than we did before we tryed it ,
    i ran 3"" facemills at 320 in/min 90 % engagement at .125 depth of cut on steel castings (free machining) high speed is the way to go , so many people are scared of it
    , the company i work for now for example refuses to look at this concept , they like to hog at slower speeds , when the insert fails the tool is cooked , the last place never lost a single insert tool , i tell them different , but hogging is what they know , there is a good reason machines carry the speeds and rapids they do , and that is because tooling has come a long way , and the machines are being built to suit that
    i calculated out for a friend one time some speeds and feeds for a stainless part that they struggled with for years (production job) they could not make tools last or have a consistent finish , he had a lump in his pants when i told him what to run them at , but he had the balls to try it , and he was a happy boy , if a guy can find that optimal speed and feed ratio in high speed it is the only way to go , problem is getting past the fear factor ,the machine makes a whole new sweet smooth sound , like i said earlier sandvik has a wicked calculator software for this , well worth looking at if anyone wants to see what their machine was truely built to do
    oh by the way when the back of the insert box says well lets say 700smf the sandvic calculator will show different sfm , as in multiples !
    sfm soon enough will be obsolete , in high speed it already is



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    You seemed to misunderstand me, I was not trying to say that Impact testing does not have a place in the setup of a machine but that it has to be carried out and used alongside other parameters. For example if you end up with a setup of programming parameters that the machine servo control cannot respond to then, although you may have optimum cuttting performance of the tool tip, you won't be able to position the tool correctly and will end up with beautifully, efficiently machined scrap. I have worked on turnkey projects for Rolls Royce and on one particular job we found that the most important factor for the quality was the coolant, if the concentration changed by more than 5% the cutter would wear out 75% faster. Obviously this was an issue after the machining had been optimised and that did include impact testing (carried out by a third party company).



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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott_bob
    Camminc,

    Give me passion anyday...

    I respect a guy with an opinion. Really...
    Frankly, it's a wellcome change around here. When I first came to this site I thought we (the community) could have a healthy discussion. This has not happened IMO. It takes more than a few paragraphs, way more than a few sentances to get an opinion out there and be understood.

    To you points about Dynamic Feed Compensation, they are pretty well laid out. I don't know a lot about this technology as I'm sure you can tell. I think a lot of us here would like to hear more. Be patient, remember I don't have the data you have.

    Best regards,
    Sound a bit over educated to me Bob. 5000 to 6000 SFM High RPM Nasty good Diamond and lots of HANDS ON SKILL. I have been doing it for a long time and I did not learn it from a book. However you do need the right CNC control Bob you are right about that. High Speed Look Ahead. All my Best stuff is done on Fanuc 161/181/21i MB's.

    Never spent a day in the big schools and still do circles around those that have.

    .................................................. .........BLUESMAN

    "Design by PHD made to work by OJT"



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    I definetly learned alot, when they were telling me about High speed machining at Standard I'd no idea what they were talking about. . . I assumed you always machined as fast as possible when programming for production.

    Wrecking a $500 Diamond cutter is an ugly way of finding out if it works or not though.



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    OUCH
    you should always start safe then bump it up slowly till your at the max , ive worked on steels with incredible speeds with indexible tools and had unbeleavable success
    as i posted previously ,sandvik has a great software calculators for this ,the sfm is far different using their calculator than what you see on the back of the insert box , it takes into account the material , insert grade , depth of cut engagement , tool dia , # teeth , and calculates it to cubic inches per minute removal , which makes more sense , and the speeds are unreal



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What is high speed machining

What is high speed machining