Spindle failed after only 229 cutting hrs?

[maxine]

My TM-1 is several years old but have only been doing prototyping on it so it has real low hours. It has been a really great fit for what I need … up until today. I bought it new and I am the only one who has ever operated it so I know for sure that it has never been crashed, it is warmed up before cutting, it is maintained rigorously per the manuals etc. The covers have never been off. It was a huge purchase for me so I have really carefully cared for it (or so I thought). It has led a gentle life actually never being pushed anywhere near its limits. I am not sure I ever remember seeing spindle loads exceeding 50 to 60%. Certainly not for more than a very brief spike if I didn't program something like an inside corner right leading to a quick tool engagement spike for example. I have only ever broken 2 tools with it. Both were 1/8" end mills that I was trying to slot too deep with. It has seen 90% plus aluminum with just an occasional steel part. So anyway after only 229 cutting hours the Selway Tech who visited today says the spindle is toast. That's a super expensive repair ($4,400 just for parts, add shipping, tech travel time, tech repair hours etc) especially for a little shop like mine. So what could I have done wrong that would cause a failure like that at such low hours? Selway is shipping the parts for the replacement but I am really wondering what to do next once it fixed? Is there a better machine out there that is similar in size and capability that I should be looking to trade up to? Or do I need to be doing something different on a day in and day out basis to get decent life out of the replacement spindle? For example should I be frequently running the spindle warm up cycle (say every couple of days) even when I don't plan on milling anything for a few weeks? The TM-1's use a permanently grease packed spindle so the Tech told me the warm up isn't actually as critical as it is with the larger Haas machines with oiled spindles where the oil can settle. Or is it actually better for the spindle to push it harder? I had planned to be using it for small volume production runs on some fairly simple parts over the next year but now I am just unsure which way to head. Genuine advice is appreciated. Pretty frustrating day to be honest. I feel like just closing the shop.

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[LeeWay]

I am curious as to what the symptoms were for him to call the spindle "Toast"? I have a 2017 Mini Mill and dread such a repair myself. I am counting on it not happening, but that is a little like gambling. There are two of us that care for the machine, but have used a few operators on it. Broke some tools, but always because of operator error and usually offset related. We do not push the machine. Not at all really. 25 to 35% max on spindle loads and those are usually from adaptive clearing. We do machine some mild steel.
If the machine isn't under warranty, it is likely a job that you could do yourself and save a little cash. That said, there may be a bit of comfort knowing that the tech may have done similar jobs before and actually knows what he is doing.

[generaldisarray]

A warm up cycle is absolutely critical for a grease pack spindle.
Especially if you are going to let it sit for an extended period then power it up and wind it out.
You machine obviously sits alot, and you probably wind it out seeing as you do mostly aluminum.


On the bright side ,thats the second cheapest spindle replacement i have ever heard of. Robodrill still being the lowest at $2500 in parts.

[erikfriesen]

Is the air purge working correctly? Even though it is grease, Isn't there is some mechanism to keep coolant away from the bearing?

[erikfriesen]

I had my spindle rebuilt by setco. It was around $4300 with a 1 year warranty, and I did the install, its a couple hour job probably.

[mactec54]

Maxine

Can you do a Video of the noise it is making, does sound though that it should not of failed with such low hours, unless there was condensation or coolant that got to the bearing surfaces, this should not happen with normal use though, I have thousands of hours on my Haas spindles and they still perform like new

Sometimes the drive belt can make a noise after they have been sitting for a while

[vmax549]

I would call Haas directly and plead your case with them before I spent ANY money with the dealer on the spindle repair. ALSO a YouTube video of what it is doing might be a good thing. Then point Haas to that video on youtube

What is the worst they could say ? No ???

(;-) TP

[maxine]

I am curious as to what the symptoms were for him to call the spindle "Toast"? I have a 2017 Mini Mill and dread such a repair myself. I am counting on it not happening, but that is a little like gambling. There are two of us that care for the machine, but have used a few operators on it. Broke some tools, but always because of operator error and usually offset related. We do not push the machine. Not at all really. 25 to 35% max on spindle loads and those are usually from adaptive clearing. We do machine some mild steel.
If the machine isn't under warranty, it is likely a job that you could do yourself and save a little cash. That said, there may be a bit of comfort knowing that the tech may have done similar jobs before and actually knows what he is doing.

The symptoms are a really high pitched squeal at about 1000 rpm and then as speed is increased from there it starts making a low pitched rumbling that sounds to me like a real rough bearing. When the low pitched rumbling starts you can feel vibration in the spindle and casting and even in the floor when it is up around 4000 rpm. Using a piece of rubber tube to listen at specific locations it sounds pretty clearly like both sounds are coming from the top of the spindle. Without the belt it runs completely smooth and quiet so it is not the motor. It does the same thing in forward and reverse. Flipping the belt made no difference. He put a tool in the spindle and put an indicator on the end mill that was in the tool holder. He could rock the tool back and forth and left to right several thou without very much effort. Once he saw that he said he spindle was bad. I thought they would have some fancy electronic vibration analysis tools for diagnosis but he didn't have any tools or do anything that I hadn't already done. We used to use vibration analyzers extensively at an industrial job to diagnose high speed equipment with a lot of success but he didn't have any of that.

[maxine]

Is the air purge working correctly? Even though it is grease, Isn't there is some mechanism to keep coolant away from the bearing?

No air purge on this design unless you mean the air blast that activates at tool changes. If that is what you mean yes the tool change air blast works fine.

[maxine]

Maxine

Can you do a Video of the noise it is making, does sound though that it should not of failed with such low hours, unless there was condensation or coolant that got to the bearing surfaces, this should not happen with normal use though, I have thousands of hours on my Haas spindles and they still perform like new

Sometimes the drive belt can make a noise after they have been sitting for a while

I actually happened to be taking a video for a friend who is interested in purchasing a TM-1 when it first started making noise. He wanted to see how the rigid tap option worked. I was rigid tapping five 1/4-20 holes in some 1/2" thick aluminum plate just making a simple bracket. Running the tap cycle at 500 rpm in a through hole. On the second hole when it backed out it started making a little "chirp, chirp, chirp" sound. Not real loud but definitely a distinct and new sound. Only in reverse at this point in time. Same sound on each of the rest of the holes. Then it did a tool change to pick up a 1/2" EM to run a quick profile around the outside of the bracket. It spun up to 3500 rpm with the new tool and immediately sounded real rough and was vibrating so I e-stopped it.

[maxine]

I would call Haas directly and plead your case with them before I spent ANY money with the dealer on the spindle repair. ALSO a YouTube video of what it is doing might be a good thing. Then point Haas to that video on youtube

What is the worst they could say ? No ???

(;-) TP

Yeah I called Haas first. They just told me to make sure the belt was tight and that it wasn't rubbing against the top or bottom of the pulley both of which I had already done before I called them. They just then directed me to Selway.

[maxine]

Other than making sure that I run the warm up cycle before use (which I already do) no other suggestions?

There was a guy who owned a machine shop in town that used to toss jobs my way fairly frequently and also would have me do CAD work for him. Super nice guy who helped me a lot. Unfortunately he was diagnosed with advanced liver cancer and passed away fairly quickly after his diagnosis. He didn't have enough time to deal with his equipment. He had an Okuma Cadet Mate in his shop that his wife is now trying to sell. Lots of tooling, tool holders etc. It is an older machine but by reputation I assume it is much more robust. I am not sure I have enough room for it but I think I will go take a look at it anyway.

[LeeWay]

It would be worth a look at the Okuma for sure.

I run all my taps at 500 RPM as well. Lots of guys go much higher in a high production environment and larger machines, but I am happy at 500. No broken taps yet. One thing I do too is add a dwell between the CW and CCW movements. Not much. I use .05 seconds. Works great. My biggest tap yet is 3/8 16.
Smallest is 6-32.

[maxine]

It would be worth a look at the Okuma for sure.

I run all my taps at 500 RPM as well. Lots of guys go much higher in a high production environment and larger machines, but I am happy at 500. No broken taps yet. One thing I do too is add a dwell between the CW and CCW movements. Not much. I use .05 seconds. Works great. My biggest tap yet is 3/8 16.
Smallest is 6-32.

I will look into how to add a brief dwell. Thank you for the suggestion, I appreciate it.

[Jim Dawson]

The symptoms are a really high pitched squeal at about 1000 rpm and then as speed is increased from there it starts making a low pitched rumbling that sounds to me like a real rough bearing. When the low pitched rumbling starts you can feel vibration in the spindle and casting and even in the floor when it is up around 4000 rpm. Using a piece of rubber tube to listen at specific locations it sounds pretty clearly like both sounds are coming from the top of the spindle. Without the belt it runs completely smooth and quiet so it is not the motor. It does the same thing in forward and reverse. Flipping the belt made no difference. He put a tool in the spindle and put an indicator on the end mill that was in the tool holder. He could rock the tool back and forth and left to right several thou without very much effort. Once he saw that he said he spindle was bad. I thought they would have some fancy electronic vibration analysis tools for diagnosis but he didn't have any tools or do anything that I hadn't already done. We used to use vibration analyzers extensively at an industrial job to diagnose high speed equipment with a lot of success but he didn't have any of that.

Given the symptoms, it really does seem like bearings. But spindle bearings should not fail in 229 hours unless you were just beating the hell out of the machine. And per your first post it sounds like the machine has had an easy life.

Even though it's out of warranty, I think a call to Haas would be in order. Sounds like a manufacturing issue to me. If you can't get any help from Haas, then we have a good spindle rebuilder here in Oregon. I have been happy with them.

[LeeWay]

Does Haas ever use ceramic balls?
It doesn't sound like a wear issue but an instant ball failure during the tap cycle.
Steel balls would not be as easy to fail as ceramic ones would be.

[mactec54]

Does Haas ever use ceramic balls?
It doesn't sound like a wear issue but an instant ball failure during the tap cycle.
Steel balls would not be as easy to fail as ceramic ones would be.

Actually ceramic ball can take more punishment than steel balls, a taping cycle is not going to put as much load on the bearings, drilling and milling will have more loading on the bearings

[mactec54]

The symptoms are a really high pitched squeal at about 1000 rpm and then as speed is increased from there it starts making a low pitched rumbling that sounds to me like a real rough bearing. When the low pitched rumbling starts you can feel vibration in the spindle and casting and even in the floor when it is up around 4000 rpm. Using a piece of rubber tube to listen at specific locations it sounds pretty clearly like both sounds are coming from the top of the spindle. Without the belt it runs completely smooth and quiet so it is not the motor. It does the same thing in forward and reverse. Flipping the belt made no difference. He put a tool in the spindle and put an indicator on the end mill that was in the tool holder. He could rock the tool back and forth and left to right several thou without very much effort. Once he saw that he said he spindle was bad. I thought they would have some fancy electronic vibration analysis tools for diagnosis but he didn't have any tools or do anything that I hadn't already done. We used to use vibration analyzers extensively at an industrial job to diagnose high speed equipment with a lot of success but he didn't have any of that.

Haas Techs do have vibration analyzers they may share them, but they do use them, they checked one of mine when it was new, but a basic test like he did would be enough to tell if there was a Bearing problem, it would be a waste of time doing a vibration test if it was obvious, any play at all in the Bearings would tell them that there is something wrong with the spindle, they are preloaded so there is Zero movement in the Spindle when they are good

[maxine]

Maxine

Can you do a Video of the noise it is making, does sound though that it should not of failed with such low hours, unless there was condensation or coolant that got to the bearing surfaces, this should not happen with normal use though, I have thousands of hours on my Haas spindles and they still perform like new

Sometimes the drive belt can make a noise after they have been sitting for a while

[airjet]

Where are you located ?