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    Default Haas smm2

    I am looking some opinions on how my machine is operating.
    the machine shakes quite badly on rapids and direction changes on feed. bought the machine new 6 months ago and have had this problem from the start.
    The tool rack jumps about, the shelve shakes to the point where i can't leave stuff on it. basically every thing shakes.
    Haas have been far from useful to me. Two engineers have been out and have said its not right, but that doesn't seem to carry much weight.
    They have suggested bolting it to the ground, but on the Haas web site it says these machines do not need bolted down.
    So why does mine need bolted down ?
    The Engineers have done software upgrades, basically slowed the rapids down to 50% and the feed rates also smoothed out. But it didn't help.

    Is there anyone on here with a Smm2 that can give me some advice please.

    many thanks

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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    Should have already been checked all, but is it on level ground. Don't remember if they have leveling feet, don't think so, but can be a high spot on the floor. Can you grab the top of the machine and move it any.

    What happens when on a slower rapid rate, say 25%?

    Mike

    Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28


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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    It has been levelled and rechecked several times, yes reducing the rapids does help.
    The machine shakes even when you jog it. Surface finish is rubbish, don’t get me wrong, I know it’s a light weight machine.
    But bloody hell this is just silly lol



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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    You have to remember that jogging is not smooth. Most use .01 for unit of jogging and that means that the bed JUMPS .010" for each movement. Just so I make myself clear, I don't believe you even have to level a S. Mini, but again it could still be sitting on something. Otherwise I think it electrical.

    Good Luck---Mike

    Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28


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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    I have a 2006 SMM (not MiniMill2, so doesn't have the Z travel you have).

    My machine does not move, even at 100% rapid. As Machineit points out, there can be a bit of a "vibration" if you are jogging slowly with the wheel and in ".01" setting, but that's about it.

    I did spend a good bit of time leveling mine, but nothing special was done.

    PM



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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    It sounds like one of the leveling screws isnt carrying weight properly. The minimill series use welded bases instead of cast. So, leveling a MM isnt an exact science like a bigger mill.

    The trick to is to get the machine as close to level as you can and then try to get the same amount of tension on each foot (if this makes sense). Another way of explaining it; each leveling screw should be able to take 50 lbs of pressure applied by a torque wrench before the screw moves (just an illustration, this is NOT a rule of thumb).

    I hope this makes sense. Its a trick I learned while working on them and its kinda hard to explain even though I can visualize it in my mind.

    If the leveling isnt the problem, then you need to look at the axes themselves. Does it do it worse in X than Y? Only in one axis? You will have to try to narrow down when it happens and eliminate as many variables as you can...



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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlawtaz View Post
    It sounds like one of the leveling screws isnt carrying weight properly. The minimill series use welded bases instead of cast. So, leveling a MM isnt an exact science like a bigger mill.

    The trick to is to get the machine as close to level as you can and then try to get the same amount of tension on each foot (if this makes sense). Another way of explaining it; each leveling screw should be able to take 50 lbs of pressure applied by a torque wrench before the screw moves (just an illustration, this is NOT a rule of thumb).

    I hope this makes sense. Its a trick I learned while working on them and its kinda hard to explain even though I can visualize it in my mind.

    If the leveling isnt the problem, then you need to look at the axes themselves. Does it do it worse in X than Y? Only in one axis? You will have to try to narrow down when it happens and eliminate as many variables as you can...
    The MiniMill 2 series have a cast-iron base, it is not fabricated steel, the 2 that we have is cast iron, nothing to say that they have not changed the MiniMill2, our MiniMill is fabricated steel

    Last edited by mactec54; 06-02-2018 at 06:17 PM. Reason: added more
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfire View Post
    I am looking some opinions on how my machine is operating.
    the machine shakes quite badly on rapids and direction changes on feed. bought the machine new 6 months ago and have had this problem from the start.
    The tool rack jumps about, the shelve shakes to the point where i can't leave stuff on it. basically every thing shakes.
    Haas have been far from useful to me. Two engineers have been out and have said its not right, but that doesn't seem to carry much weight.
    They have suggested bolting it to the ground, but on the Haas web site it says these machines do not need bolted down.
    So why does mine need bolted down ?
    The Engineers have done software upgrades, basically slowed the rapids down to 50% and the feed rates also smoothed out. But it didn't help.

    Is there anyone on here with a Smm2 that can give me some advice please.

    many thanks
    There is a foundation requirement, the Minimill 2 normally does not need anchoring

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    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    We have done everything we can to make sure the machine is level and sitting on all four levelling feet, including putting a torque wrench on them. The base of the machine is fabricated steel, I put a clock on the underside of it in the middle and you can see it flexing there.
    As for bolting it down, what’s your opinion



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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfire View Post
    We have done everything we can to make sure the machine is level and sitting on all four levelling feet, including putting a torque wrench on them. The base of the machine is fabricated steel, I put a clock on the underside of it in the middle and you can see it flexing there.
    As for bolting it down, what’s your opinion
    So yours has a fabricated base, I don't know what we have then, I thought the MiniMill 2's where all the same, if it is flexing then there is something wrong with the construction of it, may be it is missing some parts, from when it was fabricated, make sure Haas knows you found it doing this

    There is no problem with bolting it down, this is beneficial to any machine, as long as you get it level to spec's, or it will not machine very well

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    In my opinion, bolting the machine is just fixing a symptom, not the root cause of the problem. Without knowing more, I would suspect your problem is electrical related. Let me give you a list of things to look at. Try to answer as many as you can and I can help track down your problem.

    1. Have you checked all voltages? You have a +12vdc, a -12vdc and a +5vdc that supply power to your processor. The minimum voltages that will not cause cause problems would be about 11.6-11.7 for the 12v and about 4.7 for the 5v.
    2. Check the power to the axis amplifiers. This should be between 330-360vdc. Closer to the 360 end is better.
    3. Since you are in the UK, are you sure that the machine is a 50hz machine and not 60hz? I have seen some machines leave the factory originally for one place and then get sold in another and someone forgot to change the over the power supplies. They are supposed to be separate lines for US and overseas but that doesnt mean that mixups occur occasionally.
    4. Does it happen equally in both X and Y?
    5. Did the Haas techs give you any ideas more than "its not right"? Do you have a list of what they checked or any changes they may have made?
    6. Is the lube system working properly? The only way to really know is to pull back some waycovers and checking that the ballscrews and ways have lubrication on them.
    7. Does the shaking happen more at the ends of travel compared to middle?
    8. Have you had any alarm codes?
    9. Do have any other Haas machines or is this the first one? Just curious if you have another machine to compare to.

    Thats what I can think of off the top of my head.



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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    I presume the Haas engineers have checked the electrical side of things, one of them was using a multi meter so hopefully.
    I have 2 other Haas mini mills and a tm1p.
    I have also told them about the base flexing and also showed them.
    The Haas sales guy has suggested changing the machine to a VF2 at my cost of course, as he thinks another replacement smm2 might not sort the problem. (alarm bells)
    I also got the impression from the two engineers that these weren't good machines, but obviously they wouldn't commit to anything firm.
    I know that sometimes there are issues to sort through and i am ok with that, but 6 months is a bit to much i think.



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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    OK, let me ask another couple questions then. Are you wanting to fix the machine yourself? Or are you just looking for opinions? If you want to try to fix it yourself, I can help you.

    If you are looking for opinions, the MM series are not bad machines. I had customers in the past that set up entire manufacturing cells of MM's. They would arrange them in a square pattern so that a couple operators could run 2, 3, 4 machines each. They are fine machines for what they are designed for. The MM series has been around for about 20 years now, There are tens of thousands of them out there running everything from graphite to steel.

    Now, if you are wanting Haas to fix the problem, you will have to really stay on them. They will try any number of things to not replace the machine (as you have already seen). Become a pain in the ass to your local HFO. Keep complaining to them until they get someone out there with the knowledge to fix it.



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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    I would like the machine operating properly, i don't think bolting it to the ground is going to help as the base is flexing in the middle. they have done a few software upgrades, but in reality they just slowed it down. I think thats the bit that lost me confidence in there service.
    problem is its going on for 6 months now, bought the machine for a specific task with a trt100 on it. so its no small amount off money here. personally i think they need to stand up to the plate and sort something out.
    only now are they offering a replacement, but a vf2. i know its a better machine, BUT it hasn't the 10k spindle nor the same rapids as the smm2. I don't do heavy machining and do i really want a big machine with twice the horse power running of my genny.
    the dm2 would suit better, but thats a lot more money.
    So i am in a quandary.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And thanks for all your help



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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlawtaz View Post
    OK, let me ask another couple questions then. Are you wanting to fix the machine yourself? Or are you just looking for opinions? If you want to try to fix it yourself, I can help you.

    If you are looking for opinions, the MM series are not bad machines. I had customers in the past that set up entire manufacturing cells of MM's. They would arrange them in a square pattern so that a couple operators could run 2, 3, 4 machines each. They are fine machines for what they are designed for. The MM series has been around for about 20 years now, There are tens of thousands of them out there running everything from graphite to steel.

    Now, if you are wanting Haas to fix the problem, you will have to really stay on them. They will try any number of things to not replace the machine (as you have already seen). Become a pain in the ass to your local HFO. Keep complaining to them until they get someone out there with the knowledge to fix it.

    It sounds like you are talking about a machine that you have no experience with

    His machine is under warranty so common sense would tell you that he would not be fixing it himself, when there are problems with a Haas like this they will even extend the warranty just to make sure all is fixed

    The main problem is that the Supper MiniMill rapid travels are to fast for the weight of the machine, ( 1200 IPM ) so unless you bolt it down, in some cases, it will move around, I would never buy a Super MiniMill, unless you need the higher speed spindle

    If the HFO is any good they will solve the problem

    The other solution is to slow the rapids down and the problem will go away, I have one MiniMill that has never run at max rapid in it's life, and it runs every day,( just over 200,000 Tool changes and has never missed a beat) with the short travels these machines have, and high rapids the time difference running them slower is not even noticeable

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    When they did the software upgrade it added 3 minutes to a 27 minute cycle, and there wasn't any real improvement. so if the machines are not capable of doing the rapids advertised without shaking surely they should do something about it.



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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfire View Post
    I would like the machine operating properly, i don't think bolting it to the ground is going to help as the base is flexing in the middle. they have done a few software upgrades, but in reality they just slowed it down. I think thats the bit that lost me confidence in there service.
    problem is its going on for 6 months now, bought the machine for a specific task with a trt100 on it. so its no small amount off money here. personally i think they need to stand up to the plate and sort something out.
    only now are they offering a replacement, but a vf2. i know its a better machine, BUT it hasn't the 10k spindle nor the same rapids as the smm2. I don't do heavy machining and do i really want a big machine with twice the horse power running of my genny.
    the dm2 would suit better, but thats a lot more money.
    So i am in a quandary.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And thanks for all your help
    I assume if you want to the high speed spindle, then you are machining aluminum. This should be no problem whatsoever on a MM.

    You will have to keep on the HFO. They cannot authorize any replacement without approval from the factory.

    I have seen them replace machines before but it took about 6 months of harassment before they would do it. Demand that you get a factory rep out to look at the machine; this is someone that comes out from Oxnard to look at the machine. They have people assigned to certain machine lines that are supposed to experts on the machine. That is the next step in their chain of events before they will even consider replacing the machine.



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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    It sounds like you are talking about a machine that you have no experience with

    His machine is under warranty so common sense would tell you that he would not be fixing it himself, when there are problems with a Haas like this they will even extend the warranty just to make sure all is fixed

    The main problem is that the Supper MiniMill rapid travels are to fast for the weight of the machine, ( 1200 IPM ) so unless you bolt it down, in some cases, it will move around, I would never buy a Super MiniMill, unless you need the higher speed spindle

    If the HFO is any good they will solve the problem

    The other solution is to slow the rapids down and the problem will go away, I have one MiniMill that has never run at max rapid in it's life, and it runs every day,( just over 200,000 Tool changes and has never missed a beat) with the short travels these machines have, and high rapids the time difference running them slower is not even noticeable
    In all due respect, you really need to stop talking about things you know nothing about. I have seen posts from you twice in the last day where you have been dead wrong like trying to tell me a MM has a cast base.

    I dont care what your personal machine has done. You have no idea what my experience is. I keep it close without diverging much but lets just say that I have been inside of every type of machine Haas has made since the original plastic fantastics.



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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    i am actually machining stainless steel, but very integrate work 1mm cutters etc. I am at the 6 month mark now. What if the machine was inoperable, are you saying that i could have lost my business if i was dependent on that machine. because it takes them so long to sort stuff out. thats totally unacceptable in my opinion.



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    Default Re: Haas smm2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfire View Post
    i am actually machining stainless steel, but very integrate work 1mm cutters etc. I am at the 6 month mark now. What if the machine was inoperable, are you saying that i could have lost my business if i was dependent on that machine. because it takes them so long to sort stuff out. thats totally unacceptable in my opinion.
    Yes, thats kinda what Im saying. The factory will only replace a machine after an "expert" says that it is bad. They will come out, through a bunch of parts at it first and then finally make the decision to pull the trigger. Its the Haas way.

    Unfortunately, it has only gotten worse since I first started working on them. Even in their technician training, they do not teach deep troubleshooting diagnosis to the HFO techs. Its all just replacement of parts without truly understanding what the problem is. Fortunately for my customers, I took all my troubleshooting experience from working on aircraft and transferred it to working on machines. I did alot of things that the factory didnt like but I rarely left a customer without a working machine.

    Dont get me wrong. I have had machines that I just couldnt figure out. But, I didnt just walk away and say well, theres something wrong but I dont know how to fix it. I called the factory and forced my way into the experts section and got answers that way. This is what your HFO needs to do.



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