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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Alarm # 123 Spindle Drive Fault

    I'm currently having similar problems on my 94 VF3. I'll get a 123 alarm every few days, sometimes it resets easily and other times I have to turn the power on and off a few times. Did anyone have any definitive answers?



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    Default Re: Alarm # 123 Spindle Drive Fault

    Quote Originally Posted by agsy103 View Post
    I'm currently having similar problems on my 94 VF3. I'll get a 123 alarm every few days, sometimes it resets easily and other times I have to turn the power on and off a few times. Did anyone have any definitive answers?
    I ended up replacing the Vector Drive in my machine. Haven't had a problem since.

    Boulder Creek Tramway: www.smex.net.au/bouldercreek


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    Default Re: Alarm # 123 Spindle Drive Fault

    Greetings from Sweden!

    We have a Mikron VCE 1600 mill with Haas control and a Haas Vector Drive 20/15. A while ago we started getting random X/Y/Z drive errors whenever the spindle stopped. First we could press Reset and continue, but after a while the machine broke down and produced other error messages: 160: Servos Off, 102: Low Voltage and 123: Spindle Drive Fault.

    A search in this excellent forum pointed out the Regen IGBT as a possible culprit and after confirming that it was broken we replaced it accordingly, which did NOT solve the problem. We then sent the VD to Germany for repair. It came back a week later (with 6mo:s warranty on the repair...) but when we attach the VD again, we still get the same errors! When checking inside, we find that the 7800A isolation amp and the big capacitors are replaced, along with at least two optocouplers. So I have a few questions I'd love to have answers to, since I'd like to have this machine up and running again. I have worked a lot with electronics before but not this kind of contraption (I'm a certified radio/TV repairman). I also downloaded Tayfunk's circuit diagram of the VD, it helped me a lot when doing the initial troubleshooting, Thanks a bunch, Tayfunk!

    First a few observations:
    * The Power and Error/Fault LEDs lights up immediately inside the VD when the machine is powered on from the front panel.
    * There's no high voltage (325V) switched on.
    * Mains voltage is balanced within 1-2V between the three phases and all mains fuses are OK.
    * There are also a number of other machines connected to the same feeder line, working OK.
    * Motor phases measures to around 0.8 ohms each.
    * Regen resistor measures around 8 ohms through the cable, when not connected to the VD.
    * All cables are connected to the right VD terminals (I tied them up in a daisy-chain before disconnecting them the first time).
    * Machine responds to opening/closing the door at startup.

    Then my questions:
    * Is there anything you have to reset after replacing a Vector Drive, something that has to be cleared before the "new" drive will be switched on (accepted?) by the system?
    * Is there something else that can cause this error, some other card that might be broken, interfering with the VD?
    * Do I dare to activate the High Voltage relay/contactor manually, to see if some of the error messages disappear?
    * Do I dare to power on the machine with the spindle motor disconnected? (No M3/M4 in mind!)
    * Any suggestions to what else to test?

    - Or, should we just accept our loss of around $1000 for repairing the drive, and blow the whole machine to Kingdom Come with an adequate ammount of C4?

    One other curious question:
    Am I right to assume that the low power PSU (Skynet 850-904X)
    for the X/Y/Z servo drives is powered from the VD's high voltage?

    Unfortunately we don't have any other machine with this type of VD to cross test with (our other machines have Fanuc intestines), so we're kinda in a pinch...

    I'd be most thankful for any hints and tips that will help me to solve this problem, we need this machine in our production.

    Best Regards,

    Gyro_Gearloose



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    Default Re: Alarm # 123 Spindle Drive Fault

    greetings from Mexico
    I had a similar problem in alarm 123 of the VF3
    check element by element until you find the fault
    I found it in the subfuente commutated that gives high voltage
    change the integrated circuit TOP247YN and the CR5 diode
    analyzing this subfuente commutated is the one that causes you
    failure in the regeneration and the dc buss
    I hope this information will serve future problems
    it was an odyssey with good results machine


    regards



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    Default Re: Alarm # 123 Spindle Drive Fault

    Polillo,

    Thank you for your reply.

    Yes, we have checked everything(?) and it still won't work. The Vector Drive goes into Fault mode even without the 325V line connected, so we suspect there's still something wrong with it that wasn't discovered during the repair. So we're in the process of sending it back to the repair center in Germany for another check.

    Best Regards,

    Gyro_Gearloose



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    Default Re: Alarm # 123 Spindle Drive Fault

    Dear Gyro_Gearloose
    if the alarm is 123 drive spindle fault and energy regenerative the problem this in control tage not in source power
    in the power stage do not problem
    the problem this in control stage normaly in source conmuted has several small circuits that make the control in vectorial unit
    i suggest check the control stage in my case there i found problem. is necesary check all elements one to one and be doing tests for detected wich elements failling.
    you can feed the power unit stage whit a transformer to test this for check elements, do not for check output of the vector this can only on the machine unless you can simulate machine outside for test.
    I hope this helps with your problem


    regards



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    Default Re: Alarm # 123 Spindle Drive Fault

    So far, so good.

    Last Friday I opened all four servo amplifiers for a visual check. I found that one of them had two blown capacitors and another had capacitors with signs of high internal pressure. Being a careful man, I ordered new capacitors and thermal pads for all four amps and desoldered all 24 IGBTs to test them separately. They all tested OK so when the new components arrived yesterday I assembled everything and tested the circuit boards again. Almost as on que, the Vector Drive came back from Germany today with a new 25W pre-charge resistor for the 325V line (The old one had burned, causing the previous problem). I proceeded to install all components in the machine but tested the Vector Drive "alone" first, without anything connected to the 325V line. Now the big capacitors inside the VD charged up fine and the Fault LED went dark after a few seconds.

    Switching off the machine again and waiting for the HV to bleed off, I connected one servo amplifier at a time and restarted to see if anything would go boom.

    It didn't.

    Instead the amps came up with green LEDs one by one and the machine started up accordingly when all amplifiers were connected, without any nasty error messages! It was a darn good feeling when I could execute the "S500 M3" commands and hear the spindle starting! All axis are also moving accordingly so the amplifiers are OK too. I did, however, encounter an error message (Spindle drive fault) when stopping the spindle, where it took "forever" to slow down and stop. Most probably (hopefully!) this is caused by changing/disabling the spindle retardation parameter, this was done as a part of the initial troubleshooting and never set back to where/what it was initially. I'll take a looksee at that tomorrow. If the problem persists I'll replace the Regen IGBT again, just to be sure...

    And yes, the low voltage power supply I mentioned earlier is also fed from the 325V line, I found out when I ripped out the servo amps. This PSU feeds them with +/-12V.

    So that's the situation at the moment. Although "It ain't over until the fat lady sings", I can see this machine back in production after Easter. May I not be proven wrong.

    Best regards,

    Gyro_Gearloose



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    Default Re: Alarm # 123 Spindle Drive Fault

    Hah, was I ever proven wrong!

    With orders and production volumes up in the skies, I haven't had time to do anything more with that machine until a couple of weeks ago. But finally I had some "spare" time to give our mill a little TLC. When checking, I found the main source for the problems; the Regen resistor pack had developed a break in the circuit! Probably all these years in service, heat and lots of vibrations finally killed two of the resistors. It all worked fine when the resistors were cold, but a crack in the resistive material opened up when they got warm, and then there just wasn't any regen anymore! Without the regen resistor, the bus voltage soars to well over 600V (reading went off the scale of my trusty old multimeter) and BOOM! - regardless of new VDRs in the 325V line. (Yea, I replaced those as well when I took care of the servo amplifiers.)

    But, I ordered a bunch of components; resistors, opto isolators and a new IGBT and replaced the whole shebang in the HV/Regen circuit w/o taking more time to troubleshoot. I also rebuilt the Regen resistor pack with new components and mounted a 12V fan inside it, fed from the AT PSU.
    Imagine my happydance when I first started the spindle on 500 RPM and then stopped it without any errors!!!

    Continuing to test with increaasing RPMs shows that that porion of the machine now is working accordingly.

    So now I've taken on a new part of this restoration, elliminating the nasty crunchy sound that the driveline makes when running on 800RPMs and above. So far I've split the motor/gearbox and sent the motor to Finland for bearing replacement. At least the drive side bearing in the motor is shot. The primary gear is probably heat-shrunk onto the motor axle and there was no-one in this city that could get it off. Tornion Sähköpojat (Electro-boys in Tornio) has specialized in this kind of work so it should be a walk in the park for them to replace the bearings.

    There is a grease cerk on the motor's end bell, but who the heck can imagine it's there, when it's hidden by two covers? I'll also replace all bearings in the gearbox and also replace the tachometer driveline: The tacho drivebelt is reduced to just a rag and the drivewheel coming out from the gearbox is severely worn down. I'll contact our local Haas distributor on Monday and ask for replacements, if they - as usual - don't have any other solution than to replace the entire motor/gearbox assembly (which will cost a bloomin' fortune!) I'll contact one of my former schools and ask them to make a new drivewheel for me. Will probably cost us a cake or two instead of around $4000... I know they have the drivebelt but I didn't see the wear on the drivewheel when I spoke with their tech so it wasn't mentioned.

    But now I see an end to this project, now my hope is that the machine will be back in service before the end of 2018, or at least in the very beginning of 2019. Do NOT wish me luck!

    Best regards,

    Gyro_Gearloose



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    Default Re: Alarm # 123 Spindle Drive Fault

    "I also downloaded Tayfunk's circuit diagram of the VD, it helped me a lot when doing the initial troubleshooting, Thanks a bunch, Tayfunk!"

    Hello Gearloose, I'm wondering if I could get the diagram of the VD from you?
    I have been having intermittent issues with alarm 123 spindle drive fault. Nothing serious YET! I would like to avoid a complete shutdown if at all possible. I have read on numerous forums that this is a common occurrence, but no one seems to have a clear reason and surefire fix for this. I would prefer it if I didn't have to replace a bunch of unnecessary items. Most all of my measurements have been within the prescribed ranges for the items that are in the power and control loops. I don't know what else to check that has not been discussed and therefore I would like a diagram of any and all associated circuits. Thanks for any help.

    Last edited by Cojaq; 01-10-2019 at 06:09 PM.


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    Default Re: Alarm # 123 Spindle Drive Fault

    "I also downloaded Tayfunk's circuit diagram of the VD, it helped me a lot when doing the initial troubleshooting, Thanks a bunch, Tayfunk!"

    Hello Gearloose, I'm wondering if I could get the diagram of the VD from you?
    I have been having intermittent issues with alarm 123 spindle drive fault. Nothing serious YET! I would like to avoid a complete shutdown if at all possible. I have read on numerous forums that this is a common occurrence, but no one seems to have a clear reason and surefire fix for this. I would prefer it if I didn't have to replace a bunch of unnecessary items. Most all of my measurements have been within the prescribed ranges for the items that are in the power and control loops. I don't know what else to check that has not been discussed and therefore I would like a diagram of any and all associated circuits. Thanks for any help.



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    Default Re: Alarm # 123 Spindle Drive Fault

    Friend,

    First of all, please excuse the delay in my reply, I've been a wee bit busy lately.

    First of all: You should be able to use TayfunK's own download link: ?ndir to get the diagrams.

    Then, if the 123 error occurs when stopping the spindle (M5 command) from spindle speeds higher than 480-500RPM, you should absolutely check the regen resistors, and probably replace them! As I said in my previous post, I found that there was a break in two of the resistors that opened up when they got warm from use, which was the main reason for our problem. Our machine has the older type resistor package with five "sausages" inside, where the two biggest are connected in series, and the three smallest are also connected in series. These are then connected in parallel with eachother, creating the resulting resistance of approx. 8Ohms. All these resistors needs to be rated for 300W.

    A new complete regen resistor package from HAAS costs about $1100 here in Sweden, the resistors themselves costs around $150 - go figure... It took me approx. 30 mins to fix (including THOROUGH cleaning!), since the whole shebang is bolted together - even the electrical connections inside the box are done with scews. Newer regen resistor packages looks different, so I cannot say how to fix them since I haven't had my nose inside one.

    But I hope this helps you to keep your machine up and running, "eight and other good numbers" to you!

    Best Regards,

    Gyro_Gearloose



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    Default Re: Alarm # 123 Spindle Drive Fault

    A small update on our Mikron VCE 1600 (which really is a rebranded HAAS VF6...)

    We got the innards of the motor back from Finland, with new bearings, cost us around $350 plus shipping there and back again. The man at Sähköpojat told me that they had to apply a little bit of heat along with 50 tonnes (110.200lbs+) of pressure to get the gear off and on again, along with a specially made tool. But they pulled it off! (pun intended!) Now, inbetween all our other jobs, I've cleaned out the gearbox and oil sump (there was almost ONE INCH of mud in that oil sump, yeccchhh!) and replaced all five bearings in the gearbox. I do NOT intend on replace the spindle bearings - at least not yet - since they still feel A-OK.
    When assembling the machine again (when will I get the time for it when we have so many customer jobs?) I'll also replace all three drive belts; both the two between the gearbox and spindle, and the tacho belt. Yes, HAAS could provide both the tacho belt AND the driving pulley! Wasn't hard to replace, a warm smile from a heat gun ensured that both the old pulley slid off the axle and the new one slid back on effortlessly. Just as a precaution I also made a 3D model of the tacho pulley but I don't need it now.

    Now HAAS states that the gearbox will be destroyed if taken apart (says clearly on the gearbox itself!) but so far I haven't encountered any bigger problems than when renovating any other gearbox - and it went together without a hitch. Now it's as silky smooth as it should be, compared to the old bearings that sounds and feels like stonecrushers.

    I've also renovated the gear changing mechanism, which is an air cylinder in front of the gearbox. The o-rings inside was absolutely worn out. This might explain why it was, at times, difficult to change between high and low gear. Most probably someone else had also been tinkering with that mechanism in earlier years, there was a lot of kinks on the copper pipes between the air valve and the air cylinder so I replaced the whole shebang. Note to self: There are two flow restrictors in the piping, slowing down and smoothing the gear change. Take great care when (dis)assembling this setup!

    Finally I will make a tool for tensioning the drive belts, I suspect this is a must for getting the gearbox on correctly and not wear out the new drivebelts prematurely. But after that, I guess (hope!) that I just have to put the covers back on and put the machine back into production! (Again, do NOT wish me luck!)

    Best Regards,

    Gyro_Gearloose



  13. #33
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    Default Re: Alarm # 123 Spindle Drive Fault

    I too was plagued by Haas Spindle Drive Fault error 123 and, after much effort, I am happy to report that I think this vector motor drive is finally fixed. It was very difficult to work on because it has at least 10 isolated ground domains as well as dangerously high DC and AC voltages. I ultimately found that a digital signal from a programmable logic IC (PAL) was commanding both the high and low sides of an IGBT H-Bridge to come on at the same time which, of course, should never be allowed and was causing high shoot-thru current thus tripping Haas alarm 123 "Spindle Drive Fault". To my delight, it was not the PAL IC that was at fault but rather a downstream 75HC14 Schmidt trigger inverter gate. Apparently the input pin to one of the gates was leaking current backwards into the PAL's output and preventing the correct digital level from being established. This seems to make sense as I suspect an HCMOS input is much more sensitive to damage than an HCMOS output pin might be. Why do these fail? My best guess is cosmic-ray damage or perhaps a latent manufacturing defect? Anyway, if you see me doing a Snoopy dance it's because this is finally fixed. Fortunately there is a schematic for these drives located on the web.

    Additional information from my repair notes:
    • Haas VF-2B began occasionally tripping alarm 123 “Spindle Drive Fault”
    • This fault would occur even when the VF-2B was sitting doing nothing but only when the Vector Drive relay contacts were engaged.
    • From a vector drive schematic found on the internet it was determined that the fault signal was originating from IGBT gate driver U30.
    https://www.scribd.com/document/3746...lse-Made-These
    • Further investigation revealed that IGBT gate drivers U26 and U30 were intermittently getting commanded to both turn on at the same time and this causes a “shoot thru” condition that tripped the IGBT driver’s de-saturation detection fault signal.
    • Investigation revealed that the digital command for both IGBTs to be ON simultaneously was also present at the node between PAL IC (U4) and 74HC14 Schmidt trigger (U13). There is also a 3uS turn on delay circuit at this junction point.
    • There was evidence that, during the fault condition, the PAL IC was only pulling the HCMOS logic level down part way.
    • 74HC14 schmidt trigger IC (U13) was replaced and the problem appears to be fixed.
    • It is theorized that the input pin 13 on U13 was perhaps damaged by static electricity or cosmic ray and thus began leaking current into its input pin.



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    math_indy- Just sent you a short PM.
    This is a great thread! I just posted on my Vector Drive rebuild- Was neck deep into much of the same circuit areas. The Question for math_indy is one of troubleshooting. I used to do this type of work in the 90's - But this is over my TTL/Discrete logic paygrade :-) I am worried to stick any probe on it but happy to hear how you may have proceeded (with caution I am sure). Any help you can provide on the diagnosis here greatly appreciated!
    Curious: Were there burnt Zeners as well near U30 and the M57962L driver units? (U30) My VR9 -9.1V zeners and several caps actually melted off the board around J12/J13. Anywho... exicited to learn basically.

    Hope you can reply.
    PS- My board is a 32-4018A




    Quote Originally Posted by math_indy View Post
    I too was plagued by Haas Spindle Drive Fault error 123 and, after much effort, I am happy to report that I think this vector motor drive is finally fixed. It was very difficult to work on because it has at least 10 isolated ground domains as well as dangerously high DC and AC voltages. I ultimately found that a digital signal from a programmable logic IC (PAL) was commanding both the high and low sides of an IGBT H-Bridge to come on at the same time which, of course, should never be allowed and was causing high shoot-thru current thus tripping Haas alarm 123 "Spindle Drive Fault". To my delight, it was not the PAL IC that was at fault but rather a downstream 75HC14 Schmidt trigger inverter gate. Apparently the input pin to one of the gates was leaking current backwards into the PAL's output and preventing the correct digital level from being established. This seems to make sense as I suspect an HCMOS input is much more sensitive to damage than an HCMOS output pin might be. Why do these fail? My best guess is cosmic-ray damage or perhaps a latent manufacturing defect? Anyway, if you see me doing a Snoopy dance it's because this is finally fixed. Fortunately there is a schematic for these drives located on the web.

    Additional information from my repair notes:
    • Haas VF-2B began occasionally tripping alarm 123 “Spindle Drive Fault”
    • This fault would occur even when the VF-2B was sitting doing nothing but only when the Vector Drive relay contacts were engaged.
    • From a vector drive schematic found on the internet it was determined that the fault signal was originating from IGBT gate driver U30.
    https://www.scribd.com/document/3746...lse-Made-These
    • Further investigation revealed that IGBT gate drivers U26 and U30 were intermittently getting commanded to both turn on at the same time and this causes a “shoot thru” condition that tripped the IGBT driver’s de-saturation detection fault signal.
    • Investigation revealed that the digital command for both IGBTs to be ON simultaneously was also present at the node between PAL IC (U4) and 74HC14 Schmidt trigger (U13). There is also a 3uS turn on delay circuit at this junction point.
    • There was evidence that, during the fault condition, the PAL IC was only pulling the HCMOS logic level down part way.
    • 74HC14 schmidt trigger IC (U13) was replaced and the problem appears to be fixed.
    • It is theorized that the input pin 13 on U13 was perhaps damaged by static electricity or cosmic ray and thus began leaking current into its input pin.




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