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Thread: Grateful for advice about used Gerber Sabre 408

  1. #21
    Member cabnet636's Avatar
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    there are workarounds to do 3d work, vcarve or artcam express can import 3d models and produce code, but to create or model yourself the next step is aspire or artcam full program, one of our employees has both. and we will not be upgrading artcam any further. you have purchased a doggone good router and at a fantastic price i have no doubt it will do what you want!!

    please keep us up on your progress it will help others too!!

    jim

    James McGrew CAMaster 508 ATC
    www.mcgrewwoodwork.com http://dropc.am/p/EJaKyl


  2. #22
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    You will be really pleased with the Sabre, I have a 408 with the tool changer. I run gerber software with Artpath and 3D auto carve. Also runs great on Enroute which is also 3D. If you have any questions on it just drop me a note.
    I will be upgrading to the M series soon with gerber I cut. I might sell the sabre.



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    Default Sabre's capabilities

    I run a Sabre 404 without a tool changer. I've been running it for my father since i was about 14-15.

    There seems to be a lot of confusion over what this machine is capable of. So here is what I have learned the hard way.

    The machine is fully 3D capable - when using Gerber's software to control it. Ramping, used for Autocarve, is a 3 dimensional (3 axis) movement.

    While it is true that the machine will understand and use SOME G-code, it only accepts a LIMITED (ie very short) list of commands. Also, the machine will only operate in 2.5 axis in G-code. For those confused, this means it will NOT ramp using G-code - it can move the Z-axis, then after the z-move is complete, it will perform the XY movements. Be warned, also, that if you plan to cut wood with this machine - I have not found any way to alter the servo acceleration when using G-code. This is crucial because the acceleration is set so low in G-code that the material will likely burn rather than making a smooth cut. I tested just how slow the acceleration is - doubling the feed rate made a 5 second difference in job time, out of a 1.5 minute program. This is bad.

    The router has been very stable, though, and using Gerber's software is easy. Don't expect to learn a lot about CNC controls, though, since you won't see any of the code output to the machine. My only other complaint is that some of ARTPath's toolpath options don't cut wood very well. For example, try doing a simple cleanout cut. While the toolpath is optimized for cut time (one direction then the other), it is NOT optimized for finish quality. The bit will make a bad linear pattern on the bottom, which is highly visible since the direction of cut is alternating. This requires EXTENSIVE finishing, even if you use a top quality, brand new bit. It will also chip the bottom surface. Just thought I'd add this.

    There may be a way, however, to run G-code on the Sabre without using Gerber's interpreter, and without tearing out the controller. . You can PM me if you want more info.

    Last edited by Vigilance; 04-09-2009 at 06:49 PM.


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    Hi All.

    First post to the forum after much reading.

    I'm looking at a used Gerber Sabre 408 (it looks like a beauty) and have some questions (and the ususal sources, Gerber and the distributor aren't very helpful).

    It has ArtPath as the software.

    I'm particularly interested in using the Free Door program on the machine http://home.centurytel.net/bwclark/ which looks to need simultaneous 3 axis movement. Free Doors will export a .dxf, but will ArtPath execute it properly?

    Are there any decent low cost CAD programs that will work with this machine?

    I also want to do cabinets. How does ArtPath handle them? There are lot's of neat programs that will do this well. Will any of them run on the Gerber?

    What does the 3D upgrade to the software cost?

    How limited is G-code?

    Thanks.



  5. #25
    Member cabnet636's Avatar
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    i do know of several softwares for cabinetry nesting, cabinetparts pro, freedoors etc. i use them. gcode is a machine language that is pretty universal and therefore widely used and to say it is limited or unlimited is kinda like the family you marry into, the fellow who taught me cnc told me i would need to learn just enough to equate it to ordering a meal in a foriegn restraurant, the gerber is traditionally a sign machine built by a company that specializes in that type of usage and other sign making equipment, for years they have had a propietary software system that kept customers within thier system. gerber does not market to nor attend any woodworking shows i am aware of.

    this will at times exclude other more common softwares. like vectric and many cabinetry nesting programs. my suggestion is to contact the software companies you intend to use for conformation.

    welcome aboard

    jim

    James McGrew CAMaster 508 ATC
    www.mcgrewwoodwork.com http://dropc.am/p/EJaKyl


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    If you purchase a Gerber sabre and want to do cabinets you need ENROUTE by SAI. If you look on e-bay you sometimes you can find it. You need the pro setup and it will be extra for the cabinet setup. I can tell you it does work SUPER. I have enroute for signs in 3D and have the cabinet turned on also. Cost will be about 6000.00.



  7. #27
    Member cabnet636's Avatar
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    ping i just read the part about "kickbacks" and if you find them let me know!!
    how is your router coming along? i find router ownership comes with a lot of passion and with any brand we all benefit from having and knowing other owners out there!!

    your experience will help all of us understand the gerber better, i was impressed with the post by vigilance good and factual info for all, enroute is a cad engine, the add on components are sold by tony shaw of router cad, another is kcdw for cabinet use. tony also has door cad and autocabinets, i am unaware of the design capability's of these but i am recieving a demo of kcdw.

    jim

    James McGrew CAMaster 508 ATC
    www.mcgrewwoodwork.com http://dropc.am/p/EJaKyl


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    Hi Dropout, welcome to the forum.

    You are correct, Gerber will help you run the machine, but they will not be helping you run it with other software. I was told that the reason Sabre's don't include much G-code functionality is because the guy they had working on it left the company. I think that was either a rumor or a lie, though, since if that were the case, they could have hired someone else to do it.

    If ARTpath is bundled with the machine, and won't cost you extra, I'd take it. Just because you have it doesn't mean that you can never use anything else. Besides, for engraving letters and such, ARTpath really kicks @$$. It really is meant only for signmaking, though, and simple 2D shapes. The "3D" option you're talking about is called "Autocarve", and merely allows the machine to ramp to generate square corners on letters (and cut-outs), and to do prismatic lettering. It is not very flexible, as it was never meant for anything else.

    The ramping maneuvers performed by the machine during use of Autocarve toolpaths explicitly demonstrates the machine's (and controller's) capability to perform simultaneous interpolation of all 3 axes. The bottom line is this - although it is implemented in a very limited fashion in Gerber's software, the machine is 3 axis, not 2.5.

    G-code on the Sabre is limited to 2.5 axis maneuvers, and the servo acceleration seems anemic at best. A file would probably take forever to run in this mode. With Gerber's software (or at least when using their code), though, it is a bat out of hell. If there ever was some sort of bad error, you would not make it to the e-stop fast enough, even though they kindly provide 3 of them. I feel that I must add, though, that this sort of thing hasn't happened in the 10 years I've used it.

    You don't have to go ripping out the controller to run other software, though. I'll talk to you more on PM.



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    Default Enroute works

    Just learned that Enroute has processors for Gerber Sabre.
    Seems like a good choice.



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    How much is it? And do they support all the features of the Sabre?

    Personally, I would make sure, since I was promised this very thing twice before. Both fell FAR short of the mark. And we're talking about a lot of money here.

    If you haven't used Gerber's software with the machine, you might be missing things you don't even know are there.

    If they are willing to generate a sample file (or more than one, preferably) that can be spooled to the machine, I would not hesitate to demand to test it before purchase. I mean, we are talking about $8000, aren't we? We've spent as much as 10k on one of them, and what we got was a VERY sloppy hack. Be careful of vendors that don't let you test things out thoroughly beforehand. And make sure their customer support is willing to help you. I have found out that most often, you get abandoned right after they have your money.

    I apologize for the pessimism, but I've learned the hard way. And after 10 years and between 12-14k in software, I'm likely to remain skeptical about this until I see it with my own eyes.



  11. #31
    Member cabnet636's Avatar
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    i am sure viper is legit and is just as passionate about his cnc as we are!! i have seen his post before and have no reason to believe he is a salesman.

    enroute is like 2500.00 and each component is 2500 + each, so one would spend 7500+ trianing to do cabinetry, artcam to get near the equivilent of aspire is 7500 -10.000 $ . in my world aspire is 2000.00 and with cabinetparts pro 250.00 one can see why i am a fan of these softwares, full capability, lower prices excellent support. a lot has changed in software in the last six months and i believe we will see lower prices and other changes to come. for this reason i am a fan of nonpropietary controllers,

    http://www.routercad.com/WebPages/AutoCabinets.html

    jim

    James McGrew CAMaster 508 ATC
    www.mcgrewwoodwork.com http://dropc.am/p/EJaKyl


  12. #32
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    Thanks again for the advice. I will surely test any software before I buy. Can save me loads of dough.

    (Omg, its really a mess of free ways, pay roads, short cuts and dead ends to navigate in this CNC-world I just entered)



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    I agree with you, Cabnet. I think you should be able to run whatever software you want, at any time, including the free stuff, and with any controller. That is one idea I do like.



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    Default Machine running!

    Hi all helpful folks,
    Thought I should give y'all a report about the progress with the Gerber.
    I am finally installed in my new shop. The machine is up and running. Have done some test runs created with the old Omega and run trough Artpath.
    The Gerber runs smooth and with just a tiny backlash on the long Y-axle.
    Guess I eventually need to change the ball screw.

    I will receive, and do a test run with a 30 day copy of Artam Express, tomorrow.
    The price is acceptable considered it has native Gerber spooler options.
    I was planning to try the V-carve with the Gerber in g code-mode and the computer communication trough Hyper terminal. But I feel more confident with this solution. If I can make money on this setup I will start saving for a new one. CNC-ing is realy great fun!

    I have already been asked to do six big signs in wood. So now I need to find out how to coat/paint them to make them weather proof.



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    Anything you do in Artcam express you can do with gerber artpath. For doing anything 3d you need Artcam pro or enroute 4.



  16. #36
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    viper is correct. before you spend any money i believe artpath is the oem rename of express provided by gerber, much like shopbot reselling vcarve under another name. it will allow you to do some pretty cool stuff and i believe you can toolpath 3d in james booths 3dmachinist (free) with his 3d files from vector art 3d and import the tool path to artpath at that point you can add lettering and other paths like flutting and such,

    correct me if i am wrong

    jim

    James McGrew CAMaster 508 ATC
    www.mcgrewwoodwork.com http://dropc.am/p/EJaKyl


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    Default Update regarding my Gerber Sabre

    Hi all folks at CNCzone,
    I thought I give an update about my experiences with the machine so far.
    I had to change the y-axle to get the precision back. (Expensive) There is some squeaking in the X and Z too but not that much affecting the precision. I think some previous owner has used oil on them instead of dry lube.

    I finally bought Artcam Express and had managed to do 3D carvings, signs and a lot of cabinets. It’s really great to cut out all the panels, cut slots for Domino tenons (Festool) and then assembly the lot. The fittings are always perfect, panels square and within a 10th of millimetres. As a newbie it’s really a WOW experience. And when you do more than one cabinet of the same kind, the repeatability increases the revenue.

    I am doing 3D terrains for architectural models and the Mill wizard is a great help in this work.

    The problems I have had are with anomalies in feed rates and spindle speed.
    I am trying to get help from Artcam but nothing heard so far.
    No matter what feed rate I choose for inside or outside cuts it uses the same slow feed like 15 mm/sec. But when cutting a panel that isn’t square but rather like an L shape it speeds up to the desired speed on the inside of the L and slows down on the rest when doing an outside cut. And the opposite when doing an inside cut. Very strange.

    However, I found an old post in their forum saying that one should use inches/sec instead of mm/sec and use the spooler for Gerber with tool changer despite the model is made in mm. That, he said, corrected the problem. Have to try this in some dry cuts.

    My experiments with G-code haven’t been successful. The machine will simply not run.

    All in all I am a very happy CNC: er starting to make money on my machine. I haven’t done much advertising so far. Word has got around. Has had a lot of regular woodworking job, but now I feel that I want to go over more and more to CNC-work. Its fun, challenging and the competition is quite weak in my area just north of Stockholm.

    Thanks again for all help I have got so far from all you experienced guys!


    PS: If you ever happen to visit Sweden (middle part) drop me a line and we can have a cup of coffee in my shop.



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    I've played with Artcam and a 408 a little. Try setting the acceleration on the machine since there is no way to do so in Artcam. I think I read somewhere that Artcam will default to the lowest feedrate. I use IPM, acceleration on Auto and don't have a problem. I use the .ger (no ATC) post processor.

    For 3D work I make sure that the Z axis feedrate is as high as I can get away with. The Z seems to be the limiting factor, for instance X,Y 150 IPM, Z 100 IPM is faster than X,Y 200 IPM, Z 50 IPM.

    I've also had issues with the Y axis. The previous idiot, uh, I mean owner, used white grease as a lube. It took about 6 months to figure out why I was getting occasionaly Y-Axis errors but I tracked it down to the white grease and the dust and dirt it picked up. A couple of cans of non-chlorinated brake cleaner (especially by the drive nut) and the issues have gone away.

    I do all my maching (except 3D) with Gerber ArtPath. It also has it's issues, but they're manageable.

    My biggest frustration with the machine is the Z axis zeroing. I am having a dial gauge fixture built to be able to set each tool to within 0.001.



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    Default Suggestions for new vacuum tabletop

    Just want to throw out a question about the best replacement tabletop for my gerber sabre 408.
    I haven’t started using the vacuum table yet because the valves and tubes were worn out. Now I installed new valves and tubing so everything is set up for vacuum. The vacuum pump is a 7,5 kw Siemens.
    Here is what I would like to do:
    There are seven zones running along the length of the machine with T-slots in between. The zones are full of holes in larger recesses.
    That’s great when cutting whole sheets, but I want to be able to narrow down the vacuum zone. Some tables has phenolic tops that you can limit with rubber sealings. Is it possible to make such a tabletop out of a plastic sheet?
    Or could I just put out soft plastic sheets around the material I want to rout, so that the plastic is sucked down against the holes.
    A third option is to just "peel of" and put an mdf on top and use as a bleed trough. But I think maybe my vacuum pump is too small for that. Or is it?

    If someone has any experience with these matters, I would very much appreciate any suggestions.



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    hi ping just read your post glad to see your a CNC man. I've ran a sabre 408 8hrs a day 5 days a week for the last 7 yrs. I can make that machine do things that blows alot of ppl away. For our vacuum top we put a 3/4 sheet of sintra on the top with contact cement. Then mill the surface flat and drill a 5/8 hole 1/4 deep then drill 1/8" holes in the center of the holes into the aluminium. That way you create a hole with a good suction and then you can still control the 7 zones. works good for us anyways, not sure if the MDF way will work for you on a sabre. Thats what we use on our biesse but the pump for that is the size of the gerber lol. I've bought a CNC for home use (wish I could afford a sabre) i got a little K2cnc. If i could only run artpath on my machine at home I would be content. Artpath doesn't get the credit it deserves havent seen to many softwares out there that can get a job faster from drawing > toolpath> machine as good as Artpath. Just my 2 cents



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Grateful for advice about used Gerber Sabre 408

Grateful for advice about used Gerber Sabre 408