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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Hi,

    The delta motors are odd metric sizes and don't fit standard nema size gear reduction boxes.
    NEMA is 'standard' only to yanks....everyone else uses metric, including Yaskawa, the worlds biggest servo manufacturer.

    Craig



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    Member mactec54's Avatar
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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,



    NEMA is 'standard' only to yanks....everyone else uses metric, including Yaskawa, the worlds biggest servo manufacturer.

    Craig
    New Zealand was not always Metric it to was Imperial, it was not until, ( started in 1969 ) 1976 that full metrication was complete

    In America you have the best of both worlds having Metric and Imperial gives you many more options

    yanks means to pull with a jerk, the last word represents you and your uneducated use of the word

    If you are meaning Yankee that only refers to Inhabitants of New England or the Northern States of America

    Nema standard refers to the National Electrical Manufacturers Association

    Nema has never been a Servo Motor Standard, there are custom Servo Motors that can be made by any of the manufactures to a Nema Standard / Rating just for a direct mount to Gearboxes Etc. if they have a large enough quantity, In most cases they have adapters mounts that can be changed on the Gear box to suit what ever motor they want to mount

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by legendboy View Post
    I too have been reading up on ecam. My application I/O is:

    0-10vdc analog signal input controlling the timing of digital outputs. (between 15-25 seconds) I am not a programmer and am not sure exactly how this is handled with logic. It needs to be linear 0-10vdc = a 1 second on/off DO in a given time domain between 15-25 seconds.

    I have been in contact with Delta and Kollmorgen. The delta motors are odd metric sizes and don't fit standard nema size gear reduction boxes. I spent most of today emailing back and forth with Nidec regarding their Digitax servo drives (Epsilon EP is nearing end of production). Their products look good and they carry cUL cert. Just waiting for a detailed response from their app. eng. in Toronto. I really need to get a control put together this week, boss is really counting on me! (we have a po for 4 units, 5 week ready to ship from today)

    Their Unidrive M700 also looks like it could work with an ac induction motor w/50:1 gearbox, encoder and braking resistor.
    Normally you can change the Motor Mounting on the Gear Box, this is what is normal to expect when doing a project like this, the Gear Box Manufacture most likely has that option, or if you are in a machine shop that would be a snap to make a new end cover with matching motor mount, and shaft adjustment

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    New Zealand was not always Metric it to was Imperial, it was not until, ( started in 1969 ) 1976 that full metrication was complete

    In America you have the best of both worlds having Metric and Imperial gives you many more options

    yanks means to pull with a jerk, the last word represents you and your uneducated use of the word

    If you are meaning Yankee that only refers to Inhabitants of New England or the Northern States of America

    Nema standard refers to the National Electrical Manufacturers Association

    Nema has never been a Servo Motor Standard, there are custom Servo Motors that can be made by any of the manufactures to a Nema Standard / Rating just for a direct mount to Gearboxes Etc. if they have a large enough quantity, In most cases they have adapters mounts that can be changed on the Gear box to suit what ever motor they want to mount
    Thanks Mac, (do you remember me? you helped me a great deal with my bridgeport & DMM retrofit, we have spoken on the tele several times)

    I had a good conversation with George the app. eng. at control techniques in TO today. He is going to talk to his vendors and see what he can round up for components for our short lead time purchase orders.
    He is steering me towards a Unidrive M700 and Unimotor HD. I spoke with him at length regarding the programming I need and he thinks it can all be accomplished in the drive. v/f control tied to a timer with linear relationship based on our cycling requirements to drive a DO. George is going to set up a test rig with what he has on hand to verify the v/f control tied to a timer etc. will work. He should have an answer to me by friday.

    I met with the owner and vp (EE) this afternoon and they want me to proceed with trying out a ClearPath DC motor which carries a cUL rating so I will contact Teknic tomorrow. I am hoping the DC path will work for us but am unsure if the ClearPath has the I/O and functions to handle the v/f timer programming without a plc. The extra added cost of a DC PS is negligible if we can eliminate the plc. Find out tomorrow!



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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by legendboy View Post
    Thanks Mac, (do you remember me? you helped me a great deal with my bridgeport & DMM retrofit, we have spoken on the tele several times)

    I had a good conversation with George the app. eng. at control techniques in TO today. He is going to talk to his vendors and see what he can round up for components for our short lead time purchase orders.
    He is steering me towards a Unidrive M700 and Unimotor HD. I spoke with him at length regarding the programming I need and he thinks it can all be accomplished in the drive. v/f control tied to a timer with linear relationship based on our cycling requirements to drive a DO. George is going to set up a test rig with what he has on hand to verify the v/f control tied to a timer etc. will work. He should have an answer to me by friday.

    I met with the owner and vp (EE) this afternoon and they want me to proceed with trying out a ClearPath DC motor which carries a cUL rating so I will contact Teknic tomorrow. I am hoping the DC path will work for us but am unsure if the ClearPath has the I/O and functions to handle the v/f timer programming without a plc. The extra added cost of a DC PS is negligible if we can eliminate the plc. Find out tomorrow!
    The Undrive VFD will not give you any positioning accuracy, like a Servo, so if you need any positioning accuracy then you will have to use a Servo, the encoder feed back to a VFD Drive only regulates the speed of the motor when using vector mode, a Braking Resistor can only help to stop the Ac motor faster and then the DC braking control in the VFD Drive can then lock it in a position through Parameter setting in the VFD Drive

    Any VFD Drive can do this that has a Vector Control Mode all VFD Drives that have a full Vector Mode have encoder feed back this is the norm

    Here is a link to a Vector duty Ac motors with or without an Encoder, most Ac motor manufactures have these Vector Duty Ac Motors, using an Ac motor like this will be a lot more expensive than using a Ac Servo

    https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...thout_encoder)

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Todays update: Spent most of the day trying to find a right angle direct mount hollow shaft 50:1ish gearbox for this motor https://www.teknic.com/model-info/CP..._voltage=75VDC

    Drawing: https://www.teknic.com/files/downloa...%20Drawing.pdf

    It seems ClearPath DC motors have undersized rotor shafts. This NEMA 34 has a 0.5" diameter shaft. This mis match is causing me some difficulty. I found out today a lot of gear box manufacturers have the input shaft size and hollow shaft size as custom. I am looking for something off the shelf like this https://varvel.com/en/products/rt-series/. Waiting to hear back from a couple vendors. I did find that Parker has one right angle gearbox with exactly the right dimensions to fit the DC ClearPath but it is a planetary Gen II Stealth with an output shaft which isn't what I am after.

    George at Control Techniques is putting together a package for short lead time components using Digitax M750 but again a gearbox is likely going to be long lead

    Tecknic's put thru my original order that I put a hold on for some reason so I have the AC motor plus cabling etc. on its way here Fedex Express. Of course I called in the order to be put on hold and didn't follow it up with an email so I have no "paper trail". Se how that works out.

    Last edited by legendboy; 06-30-2021 at 07:57 PM.


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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by legendboy View Post
    Todays update: Spent most of the day trying to find a right angle direct mount hollow shaft 50:1ish gearbox for this motor https://www.teknic.com/model-info/CP..._voltage=75VDC

    Drawing: https://www.teknic.com/files/downloa...%20Drawing.pdf

    It seems ClearPath DC motors have undersized rotor shafts. This NEMA 34 has a 0.5" diameter shaft. This mis match is causing me some difficulty. I found out today a lot of gear box manufacturers have the input shaft size and hollow shaft size as custom. I am looking for something off the shelf like this https://varvel.com/en/products/rt-series/. Waiting to hear back from a couple vendors. I did find that Parker has one right angle gearbox with exactly the right dimensions to fit the DC ClearPath but it is a planetary Gen II Stealth with an output shaft which isn't what I am after.

    George at Control Techniques is putting together a package for short lead time components using Digitax M750 but again a gearbox is likely going to be long lead

    Tecknic's put thru my original order that I put a hold on for some reason so I have the AC motor plus cabling etc. on its way here Fedex Express. Of course I called in the order to be put on hold and didn't follow it up with an email so I have no "paper trail". Se how that works out.
    A PM motor will work the best if you are going to use a VFD Drive, the VFD Drive has to be suitable to run a PM motor, with using a PM motor you can get better position control than with a VFD Drive and an AC motor

    Check this number on eBay there are hundreds of these Gear box choices like this if the quality is good enough for your application 224374316332

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Hi legendboy,

    This is Ian (the applications engineer at Teknic that you've been working with).

    As we chatted about this morning, Teknic will take care of the order return.

    Please also keep in mind that gearbox manufacturers often make the gearbox input diameter large enough to fit a full range of motor shafts. Then they implement a custom bore adapter to fit the exact motor shaft requirement. This helps with supply chain and lead time challenges.

    I hope this helps clarify some of the points mentioned in this thread. Please feel free to give us a call (585-784-7454) or leave us a message at https://www.teknic.com/contact/ if you have any questions.

    Best regards,
    -Ian R. Teknic Servo Systems Engineer



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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Hi Mac, ya we need a high quality gearbox.

    Hey Ian, you found me! Yes thanks for taking care of the order that got put thru. As I have read in many threads Teknic's customer service is top notch and you are no exception.
    Just waiting to hear back from my contact at Techtop for a Varvel gear reducer. Also waiting to hear back from Peter. Keeping fingers crossed the gearbox won't be super long lead.



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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Hey Ian, you are a controls (EE? ME?) engineer? Have you done any machine building or retrofitting yourself? Lets hear a bit about your background! You have been stellar to deal with so far



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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Honing in on a few gearbox choices for this NEMA 34 size motor. Waiting to hear back from SEW Eurodrive for a servo gearmotor/programmable drive and Shimpo for a gear reducing box to fit ClearPath. Shimpo seems like they have the best selection of gearboxes to fit our needs. Hopefully I can get all my selections made this week, the clock is ticking!



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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Hey legendboy,

    Thank you for the compliment! Teknic takes customer service very seriously and I'm glad you've enjoyed working with us so far. I've also enjoyed working with you.

    Personally, I’m an Applications Engineer at Teknic, where I work in a number of different fields including mechanical, electrical, software, controls, etc... My degree itself is in Mechanical Engineering, but I've had the pleasure of working with engineers in all disciplines.

    I have yet to take on a retrofitting project of my own (I live in an apartment and my dog would likely chew all the machine components), but I have gotten to work on a lot of very interesting and unique machines (some with more than 20 axes of coordinated motion) hands-on to integrate our products and other suggested machine components.

    Once I move into a larger space, I'd love to take on a retrofitting project. I've actually come across a few threads on CNCzone and other forums that I've bookmarked for later... and yes, to answer your follow-up question, I will be using ClearPaths!

    Best,
    Ian R.



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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teknic_Servo View Post
    Hey legendboy,

    Thank you for the compliment! Teknic takes customer service very seriously and I'm glad you've enjoyed working with us so far. I've also enjoyed working with you.

    Personally, I’m an Applications Engineer at Teknic, where I work in a number of different fields including mechanical, electrical, software, controls, etc... My degree itself is in Mechanical Engineering, but I've had the pleasure of working with engineers in all disciplines.

    I have yet to take on a retrofitting project of my own (I live in an apartment and my dog would likely chew all the machine components), but I have gotten to work on a lot of very interesting and unique machines (some with more than 20 axes of coordinated motion) hands-on to integrate our products and other suggested machine components.

    Once I move into a larger space, I'd love to take on a retrofitting project. I've actually come across a few threads on CNCzone and other forums that I've bookmarked for later... and yes, to answer your follow-up question, I will be using ClearPaths!

    Best,
    Ian R.
    Sounds like an awesome career! So I am waiting on quotes from Wittenstein, SEW & Shimpo (thru Electromate whom i've dealt with for quite some time) and Cone Drive. Cone has a real nice option for us. Hoping to have something nailed down tomorrow or Monday. Its been fairly difficult to find a worm screw gear boxes to fit your NEMA 34C frame. Peter can't expedite better than 35 days, sent a step file with the wrong dimensions etc. so that takes him out of the running.



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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    I do not understand what is the matter with a bell crank driven by pneumatics. It is such a simple and cheap solution with so little to go wrong and such incredible industrial experience behind it. Any tech could service it. Going to servo motors and gear boxes strikes me as marketing complexity for the sake of spin.

    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    I do not understand what is the matter with a bell crank driven by pneumatics. It is such a simple and cheap solution with so little to go wrong and such incredible industrial experience behind it. Any tech could service it. Going to servo motors and gear boxes strikes me as marketing complexity for the sake of spin.

    Cheers
    Roger
    Yes in an idyllic world this was my first thought (rack and pinion?) but alas we don't want to package every OEM product with an air compressor just to open and close dampers. I am trying to introduce some spin, need to give those spec'ing engineers something cool to look at! New tech, something advanced, reliable and different from competitors etc.

    Sooo we have ditched the AC ClearPath because of regulatory issues (UL 508C is obsolete and withdrawn by UL on February 1, 2020 and replaced with a new UL standard UL 61800-5-1) Teknic is unwilling to re certify to the new standard because the 508C cert is grandfathered in on existing certified products. I am not sure why Teknic wont get CSA or ETL certs on their components? If they sell to as many OEM's as they claim I would think this a non issue? Anyways,

    Going back to a DC model. Finally after a month of inquiries and Teams meetings with manufactures I have found several NEMA 34 reducer options. I will soon be torture testing a CPM-MCPV-3421P-RLN, IPC-5 PS and Varvel RT40 (limiting tq.) on our prototype.

    Thanks for all the patience Ian and advice from cnczoner's!

    Aside from putting together a new style control for regenerate enthalpy energy recovery unit, sourcing hygroscopic foil from china and finding this stupid gear box I am also putting together custom damper linkage. We are ordering airfoil blade control dampers without any linkage. The manufacturer's linkage is s*h*i*t I am going to precision manufacture the linkage for lowest torque requirements and longest wear (5m cycles). I am having linkage components laser cut and will be finish machining and TIG welded in my home shop. (at least for the near future)

    Last edited by legendboy; 07-23-2021 at 08:55 PM.


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    Default Re: Standalone programmable servo drive/motor?

    Have you considered going hydraulic? My log splitter is electric/hydraulic, and all power steering on cars is hydraulic. Very compact and quite and neat. And reliable and cheap.
    Sadly, little glamour or spin.

    Cheers
    Roger



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