Attitudes in Machining - Page 3


View Poll Results: Machining Attitudes, whats yours?

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  • Don't care

    1 0.44%
  • Just do enough to get by

    2 0.89%
  • Just take short cuts

    1 0.44%
  • Just get it done and out the door

    12 5.33%
  • Want it done right the first time

    172 76.44%
  • Overly nit-picky

    37 16.44%
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Thread: Attitudes in Machining

  1. #41
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
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    You cheeky boy Hu flung, see we all have our dodges to get the parts out of the door.
    This doesn't mean we apply slap dash work habits as a matter of choice, but occasionally when the devil drives, then the book of tricks is consulted and we get a perfect record.

    So I feel vindicated that having advocated, I think it was #4 option, "just get it out of the door" means using all your skill to save the boss a bundle when the tight arrsed barstud supplied crap tooling to do the job in the first place.

    The type of bloke I despise is the one who comes in on the broom and when the boss wants a cheap job done employs him in preference to a regular skilled worker.

    Pretty soon he's working alongside you and trying to pick your brains as well as picking your pocket so to say.

    I don't give the time of day to these people, even if they have a family to feed, been too long in the firing line to mince words with dodgers and bodge merchants.

    The industry can't survive by having cheap semi skilled labour producing the work.
    Eventually the workforce comprises of a cheap " that'll do" type of attitude, and so what incentive for anyone to work for five years at low wages whilst learning if the wages are no better at the end of it.
    Ian.



  2. #42
    Registered ZenOrbit's Avatar
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    I just spent 2 days working on a special gear blank.
    The customer had been to many other shops with this job, and no one could make the part correctly (in spec). They wanted 12, and I agreed with my boss, that I'd make one part complete (in 2 ops) to ensure my process would work. Well, I finished it, and it was dead on top limit, but it was in spec, according to the multiple cmm checks I did on it...(with report print-outs for proof). The thing is, I'm dead sure that over the next day or two, it'll move. It may move in a good direction, or a bad one as the part relaxes.
    My point is, with parts that require this level of skill and attention to make properly, and QC departments on the other end, that can spot a freckle on a mosquito, I don't think we're ALL in danger of losing our work to semi-skilled workers...



  3. #43
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
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    Hi Zenorbit, I wouldn't bank on your last statement.
    The people out there actually paying the wages will decide who will do the job, that is who they can employ to just "get the job out the door" with the least fuss and bother and more importantly to them for the least cost.

    The bottom line has always been the deciding factor in most peoples minds, and if you happen to be an employer with overheads to meet and little profit around then any measure that pays off in the short term is a viable solution.

    This does not mean that this is the ideal way to go, it just means when YOU have to pay the bill you become very particular in your requirements, commonly called human nature.

    BTW, if the part you were making is going to walk about as it relaxes, then it was designed wrongly in the first place if this factor is not in the equation.
    Having worked with alluminium bronze castings and forgings, I am fully aware of the problem of post machining movements.
    Ian.



  4. #44
    Registered ZenOrbit's Avatar
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    As it turns out, the final assembly of the parts I'm making -(a special purpose gear box) has been made before and it failed terribly. There's no doubt in my mind that it's the design that's faulty, but the designer figures that if he tightens up the tolerances like a seal's ass everything will be fine.
    What that has accomplished, is a large increase in cost, and a nasty pain in my arse. Whoever heard of a .0003" total tolerance on an od for a bearing press fit???-Not that the size isn't achievable, but try and find people to agree on a reading!

    Anyways to sum-up my original point:

    It would be exceedingly difficult to find a semi-skilled worker who you could hand these drawings to, and expect good parts from.

    Rock on.



  5. #45
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
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    Hi Zen, typical designer syndrome, because they can draw it they assume it can be made.

    Been down that path even with some parts we previously made for Rolls Royce UK believe it or not, nobody's infallible.

    The ideal scenario is when a designer gets together with a hands on engineer and gets the design to a practical level.
    Ian.



  6. #46
    Registered keithmech's Avatar
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    If you can't make it right , make it bright.Had and seen too many guys spend way to much time on areas that did not matter and far too little time on those that did.Example,Why have a 16 finish on a part of a shaft that is going along for the ride when spec is +- 1/16"?Or machining 4140 and not checking for the material moving but worried about a .001 fit.I guess that,s why I work for the IWA (I work alone).Get it done right,that includes getting it out the door sometime today and not turning it into a carreer.



  7. #47
    Registered ImanCarrot's Avatar
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    The ideal scenario is when a designer gets together with a hands on engineer and gets the design to a practical level.
    I could not agree more.

    I've had designs that are impossible to make and it would have saved a lot of time (ie money) if I had been consulted before the design went to print.

    On the other side, I design and sub contract a lot of stuff that's not critical dimension wise and always speak to the engineer who's going to be making it- this saves a lot of hassle for them and me- invariably my sub- contractor will suggest a better way of fixturing/ machining the part that saves us both time and money.

    Two brains are always better than one

    I love deadlines- I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.


  8. #48
    Registered imsofaman's Avatar
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    MY attitude used to be #5 Do it right the 1st time.

    Unfortunatley, I was working for a company that thrived on back stabbing, drama, game playing, nepatism, rumors and no communication with all departments. They played games just for the fun of it and also to protect their jobs. Many guys in the "engineering" dpt. we not true engineers....mostly hacks. They had the correct accent like Borat and were treated like family. The guys like myself who spoke english and knew what we were doing were a real threat to them. One engineer who could not speak english well....had the design sence of a 5th grader would give us prints every day that were wrong. We would do the job and then he would say WE messed up. We would give the print to our boss....it would get "lost" and many time we would get written up for doing the job wrong.

    So....I changed my attitude to #6 Nit Picking everything.

    I had to protect myself. I started logging every job, every conversation, making copies of prints given to me....it got even stranger....
    The next series of events were just oo much.

    Our engineering dept. soon had a meeting telling us that all prints given to us will NOT have the tolernces on them. WHAT????? Guys....I am not making this up. This is freakin true! They gave us a sheet with a tolerance guide for each part we make. So....in other words, the engineers could not figure out how to make a template for the prints and kept putting the wrong tolernces down for us. So the print would have a size for each dimension....but no tolerance. so.....we would have to look on the sheets on the bullitan board. Also...we we not allowed to touch the sheets or the board or we would be suject to termination. Yeah....crazy but true.

    I was taught....our prints are our bible.....follow the prints as the engineers know what they are doing and we as machinists are the final step for the end product. Instead.....we had to trouble shoot and second guess every print we got. And if the print was wrong, it was our fault. How can you work like that??? Many complaints to human resources....many verbal spats, many nights of no sleep fromt he stress of being the object of cruel mental harrasment. They wanted a new force of guys....guys with a certain accent and who would do anything they asked. Anyone who stood up for their rights as an employee were a target. They wanted us (English speaking competant machinists) out and would stop at nothing to get that accomplished. I hear they are still playing games to this day....the other compitent machinist also left and moved to Arizona. A great guy and I miss working with him.

    So....eventually I left, but the scars of the constant games that were played still haunt me.

    Dave

    This "old dog" is learning a new trick!


  9. #49
    Registered ZenOrbit's Avatar
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    Wow, Dave

    I worked at a place just like that!
    I got burned every time I assumed that the drawing was right, or had ALL the info I needed on it.

    I ended up nit picking every damn thing, and I got canned for it!
    Some dick in upper management was told to lay off a bunch of guys, and I was included. He said I spent too much time second guessing the "engineers" and that was that. He didn't even ask, or care what I had to say.

    I don't think it was a case of immigrants protecting their own here, though.
    Just rampant incompetence, crap flowing down hill, and an utter failure of the management as a whole.

    It's amazing that places like that even remain in business.



  10. #50
    Registered imsofaman's Avatar
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    The place I worked at was truely my dream job. My boss was great and creative. He had is quirks....but we all do in one way or another. I was able to create, design, troubleshoot tooling and fabricate my own designed assembly machines. I went in early and stayed late. I was invloved in so much and really felt I was part of the team. My dream job....

    Then my company was sold to huge MFG over seas. That is when the "head hunter" came in starting letting people go. They set up my boss for a fall. That is when the Borat sound alikes took over. Upper management changed. Then came the Kaizen events. All of our time was devoted to Kaizen and not our work. Soon we realized the only way to get ahead was to suck ass with the Kaizen stuff. Hell.....they were having meetings on how to have meetings! Not how to manufacture the next new idea. If you bucked the system....you were out. Once we got a handle on that....then it was 5-S. That was another more complicated nightmare. By that time we were all just numb and could care less. We spent more time cleaning, painting and organizing than we did anything else. It was just damned sad.

    From the dream job to the nightmare in ten years.


    Dave

    This "old dog" is learning a new trick!


  11. #51
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    #5 because when it gets rejected they will always blame you even if it aint your fault .lol



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    TOLERANCES TOLERANCES, does anyone know why there are tolerences on a drawing?
    The reason is because you can't make parts on a repetition basis dead to size EVERY TIME.
    Tool wear, machine wear, and other factors come into play the moment you start to make more than one item.

    I once had a mate who had a set to with a foreman who insisted that the parts be made to top tolerence.
    As well as that he was expected to do the job in the same time.

    It appeared that the mating parts were all oversize, (bore sizes).
    Now I ask you, how can you make a part dead to size, +/- nothing and still do it in the production time of a tolerenced item, which is what he was being told to do by working to the top limit only.

    Only after a bitter argument was the part retolerenced to the new over sized dimension.
    Even the gauges used in production have a tolerence when set to top and bottom limits.

    Incidently, production is carried out by semi skilled tradesmen, and women, hence the need for tolerences.

    A skilled tradesman wouldn't lower himself to rub shoulders with those who are only capable of operating machinery set up by others.

    That is why the pay reflects the effort put into producing the parts.
    There is no such thing as a skilled operator.

    A skilled operator is a costly item, so semi skilled operators are the answer to making the job pay.

    In the old days the semi skilled operators worked the capstans, turrets and mills, whereas today you have the CNC set-up where the operator just loads the parts and initiates the cycle.

    As unpallatable as it may seem there is a definate need for a person who can work all day long just winding handles and pushing buttons, and in the process produce parts that will pass QC in the allotted time.
    Production makes money, jobbing shops rarely do.

    The secret is to deskill the job, so that anyone off the street can produce accurate work with the minimal tuition, and for the least wage.
    By applying a piece work situation the operator will be his/her own task master.

    The scrap rate is the price to pay, but with the scrap rate built into the price of the job, it's money in the bank.
    A scrap rate of 10% is not a too unrealistic quantity to bear.

    How many times have I seen a foreman working after hours trying to reclaim scrap parts, when they should be written off as par for the course.
    It cost more to rework a part than make it from raw material.
    Ian.


    I must say your posts on this forum are the most intelligent,no busll****e stuff i have read on this forum thus far



  13. #53
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    I love the type that try to sabotage someone elses part, machine, or career. Misdirection and deception is the way of the coward. People amaze me at the incredible lies they dream up these days. Being a machinist is difficult enough without having to worry about a hatchet in the spine.
    Now your machinist four ratings are prone to change the fives and sixes into the low life ones and twos. Chalk it up as "human nature" or "busines" if you like. As I train others I never tell them everything I know and I'm quite sure I'm not alone. The trade grows weaker because of this and the temporary services flourish.



  14. #54
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
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    Hi all, unfortunately machining is a constant battle to get it right, so if it goes pear shaped from time to time, that's the name of the game.

    There will always be people who try to shift the blame, and that is part of the inbuilt human self preservation mechanism that gets suppressed when we become more civilised.

    That is why I always used to mark my work so that there could be no doubt when the crunch came, also known as a paranoid tendency.
    Ian.



  15. #55
    Member dertsap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    There will always be people who try to shift the blame,

    That is why I always used to mark my work
    Ian.
    i never could get those clowns who are so chicken___ that they can t fess up the making a mistake ,
    when i worked with one of those guys a few years back i had a point that i had to mark my parts , seemed everyday there was something the guy was blaming me for so i started marking a "C" where only i would know or ever find it , next day sure enough there was an issue the minute i walked in the door , i looked at the parts and told the boss they weren t my parts because they didn t have my mark , he was puzzled and asked what mark ,so i showed him , right then and there put an end to that BS , the idiot could no longer blame anyone but himself for his own screw ups

    A poet knows no boundary yet he is bound to the boundaries of ones own mind !! ........


  16. #56
    Registered MaCroB's Avatar
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    Default Guess I'm lucky...

    I guess I'm fortunate, from the way everything sounds here...I'm the supervisor in a small shop, equipped with some of the highest tech machines I've been around (Production Makino MMC system, Nakamura Gantry Lathes...etc). Everyone that works for me is basically at an operator level, so the hinge for our department lies solely on my expertise. I've had a couple of brushes with a couple of the engineers, but after documenting the problems and throwing it back in their lap, the problems went away...Other than that, everyone where I work is great...My advice to all; Document everything and CYA (Cover Your A$$). It's hard to point blame when you have documentation to back yourself up!

    In past jobs, I've been where you guys seem to be...Nothing sucks more than getting up in the morning and wondering who's going to stab you in the back today! Those of you who have to deal with that kinda crap, give yourself some credit! Operators make parts, but it takes a real machinist to put up with the attitude!





  17. #57
    Registered tobyaxis's Avatar
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    #5 Do it right the first time because there is No Time or Money to do a job Twice!!!, LOL

    Edit: here is a PDF Published by a Member of the E Mastercam Forum that is GREAT!!

    Enjoy!!!!!!

    BTW those of you that Picked #5 and Boarder Line #6, I'm buying this round, Cheers!!!!!!!!

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Attitudes in Machining-fundamentals-pdf  
    Toby D.
    "Imagination and Memory are but one thing, but for divers considerations have divers names"
    Schwarzwald

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

    www.refractotech.com


  18. #58
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    I chose 5. Some parts require #6, but most are 5.



  19. #59
    No posers SBC Cycle's Avatar
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    Start every job at a 6, maybe 5.

    Hope to stay at 4 or above by the last part.

    Can't go wrong there! "Start wrong, end wrong" is on a poster board in the middle of the shop. It works for me.



  20. #60
    Registered sti2011's Avatar
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    Maybe more so in this trade than any other, if you a labeled a hacker it will follow you. And it is damn near impossible to get rid of that moniker. I don't ever want someone to come into my shop and look at one of my parts, or my guy's parts and think that looks like sh*t. As a machinist your only true value is the quality and quantity of what you produce. A large amount of ****ty parts is not better than a reasonable quantity of quality parts. As far as set-ups go they can really never be too good as one never knows for sure who will end up running your parts. A truly good set-up is one that you would allow almost anyone to run and they will look like a hero.
    I have always believed that the Customer or other Shop Owner walking thru the shop may be your next employer. And always strive to make the highest quality allowable, given time and circumstance. An accurate, reasonable qoute always helps as well. Tough to make the crown jewels in half the time needed. Still we would rather lose a little money than send someone junk or something un-professional.
    *You are always only as good as the last part you made.
    *And every-one knows a hacker and hack shops.
    *Don't be a hacker!
    !And never forget that depending on the work you do, somebody's life may be at stake with the parts you made. Sometimes close enough is the difference between life and death. (Medical, Military,Munitions,Safety devices,Transportation,etc)!



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