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    Gold Member daniellyall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    You are funny Ian.

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    Being Disabled is OK CNC is For fuN


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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    The whole point of having a CNC machine....lathe, mill or 3D printer, whatever......is to make parts to your liking...…...that could be for a commercial enterprise where you have to make it cheaper,quicker if not better than the competition so that means an investment for the next very best machine you can afford......being an also ran does not make money.

    Hobby work is a totally different ball game...…..setting up to make a part can take hours of "fun and games" until you get it right, and even then the results may not be 100% perfect, which means you don't mind reworking the part or doing it over and over again...…..selling such products to a customer is not even a remote possibility...….hobby work with cheap equipment can get your toe in the door and make you a small achiever for what it's worth.

    I think the whole idea of getting away from the hand worked item that Dad used to make on a manual machine is the aim of most hobbyists today, mainly because Dad was a skilled tradesman from the old school and that is how he did it.....the skill is now in the machine and you are just the caretaker.

    I'm a caretaker too, in that respect, as I have a CNC mill that I only have to tool up and write some code to make it perform.....to the best of it's ability as the builder of the machine endowed it...……. the difference is I like watching the wheels go round as it's a new technology for me …..what eventually comes out when the action stops is not my wow factor as I could make the same part on a manual machine.

    It will be many many Moons before the 3D printer itself makes metal parts that require no subsequent work to finish it......but it could be a reality given the present progress rate in technology, just don't hold your breath waiting for it to occur.
    Ian.

    The ones I saw were already printing metal parts that required no further work. The finish looked better than anything I have seen from a CNC milling machine. The limitation is not the current technology. It's just about how long it will take to become affordable.



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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    I don't know the latest 3d metal printers but I tried shapeways 4 years ago. I did send a round model but the printed part was elliptical.

    Sent from my MI 5s Plus using Tapatalk

    Suat
    Proud father, C# developer, Model heli pilot, newbie free time machinist for hobby


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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Well, time will tell...…...I can't see 3D printing totally knocking out CNC machining though.....even a needle and cotton invented thousands of years ago is still with us and I doubt whether many women would give up their knitting needles for a CNC knitting machine.
    Ian..



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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    The ones I saw were already printing metal parts that required no further work. The finish looked better than anything I have seen from a CNC milling machine.
    With all due respect, then you have not seen quality CNC machining work.
    When printed metal parts can be made to 0.01 mm accuracy and with micron-level smoothness at a speed comparable to a CNC machine, then I will believe. But that is a really long way into the future (if it ever happens).

    I was looking at the undercarriage of a passenger train this afternoon. Large parts, many kg. I imagine they are machined in about 15 minutes - with precision bearing holes, carrying tons.

    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post

    Do you guys have a view on how far away this is from becoming mainstream and a viable alternative to CNC milling?
    No, never. Just like 3D printing plastic parts will never replace molded or milled plastics. Even less likely when it comes to metal printing.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/AdaptingCamera/videos
    https://adapting-camera.blogspot.com


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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    I was looking at the undercarriage of a passenger train this afternoon. Large parts, many kg. I imagine they are machined in about 15 minutes - with precision bearing holes, carrying tons.
    Those are NOT machined from scratch but from a cast iron part as far as I know.

    Otherwise I agree with what you are saying about 3D printing metal. Forget about steel, even 3D printed aluminium must be very rude and inferior quality, taking infinitely long time to finish a small part and the quality must be really poor, even compared with what a cheap CNC mill/router can do. He must have never seen a mill, even less likely used one, if he say that 3D printed is better than milled.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/AdaptingCamera/videos
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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Hi A_Camera

    Oh, I know they start out as castings. I was just highlighting the absurdity of trying to 3D print them in-toto.
    I guess you might be able to print them faster in polyethylene ...

    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Quote Originally Posted by awerby View Post
    I suppose that depends on what you mean by "any" accuracy. Digital Metal, for example, a Swedish company that makes small intricate parts using a build and sinter process, says that their parts have a resolution of up to 35 microns, their machines build in layers as small as 42 microns, and that their overall dimensional accuracy is .5%: https://all3dp.com/interview-with-di...inted-objects/

    While that might not match the tolerances for the best precision CNC machines, it's not too shabby, and these processes are still evolving.
    I am sure it is technically possible to reach high accuracy but at what costs? Those printers are not for everyday users. Will it ever replace CNC machining? No, never. But it definitely is possible to find users/buyers because with a 3D printer one can do things a CNC can never manage to make, at least not in one piece. So yes, finding areas of use is possible but will not replace CNC machining.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/AdaptingCamera/videos
    https://adapting-camera.blogspot.com


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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    " I expect that there will only ever be a few computers needed that someone will use to do a job"

    "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
    -- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

    Cheers
    Roger
    If those words have ever been really said and if he meant as the quote is used then there is an excuse for him. Computers were new inventions at that time, there were no similar products, extremely complicated to make and enormously expensive, not just to build, but also to run. If the invention of transistor would have never taken place then I think Watson would have been proved right. CNC machining and 3D printing, as well as sintering metal is not new technology so we have a better reference base to guess the future than Watson had. He was proven wrong pretty fast, just a few years after that statement but that's because of the transistor making it possible to build smaller, more powerful, less demanding computers.

    I am not sure if he really said that or if it is just an anecdote, like Bill Gates famous words about "640kb memory is more than anyone ever will need, so we'll build our computers to handle maximum 1024kb memory". He never said anything similar, even though some people claim he did. He was a real vision-er, perhaps he still is, Watson was a finance man, just thinking about $$$$.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/AdaptingCamera/videos
    https://adapting-camera.blogspot.com


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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    The ones I saw were already printing metal parts that required no further work. The finish looked better than anything I have seen from a CNC milling machine.
    With all due respect, then you have not seen quality CNC machining work.
    When printed metal parts can be made to 0.01 mm accuracy and with micron-level smoothness at a speed comparable to a CNC machine, then I will believe. But that is a really long way into the future (if it ever happens).

    I was looking at the undercarriage of a passenger train this afternoon. Large parts, many kg. I imagine they are machined in about 15 minutes - with precision bearing holes, carrying tons.

    Cheers
    Roger
    I most certainly have seen high quality CNC machines metal parts. Your knowledge is not up to date on 3D metal printing. The technology is already in use. It's not some pie in the sky future dream.

    Check out this article in Mercedes Benz use of 3D printed aluminum spare parts for their trucks:

    Mercedes-Benz Trucks begins 3D printing metal spare parts for trucks | Fleet Owner

    The stuff I saw from NASA was even better. It had a mirror finish.

    This one explains how one of the 3D metal printing technologies work and how it is currently being used to replace traditional casting or machining processes:

    https://www.ponoko.com/blog/how-to-m...nt-technology/

    Last edited by Goemon; 06-21-2018 at 03:40 PM.


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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    I suspect in a couple of decades additive fabrication will surpass subtractive fabrication. The technology is improving daily, and be will mainstream in time. Will it ever completely replace subtractive fabrication? No, I don't think so. There is a place for both technologies.
    Sounds like a reasonable guess to me.

    I think a lot depends on how much progress they make and how quickly prices drop. Cheap 3D printers have been around for a while but it took a lot longer for the superior stereolithography machines to reach the benchtop.

    It would be interesting to see how much the current benchtop 3D metal printers cost. Like this one:



    Last edited by Goemon; 06-21-2018 at 03:56 PM.


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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Judging by the plummeting cost of technology, and using a computer for a comparison, the 3D printer will one day be the main tool for manufacture......of that I will bet the family jewels on.

    At the same time, it's a possibility that metals will be replaced by composites just to make the system work...….you don't have to use metal if an alternative material will do the same job.

    I would think that the part to be made would be redesigned to cater for the 3D printer characteristics instead of beating your brains out trying to print parts in unsuitable materials.

    Many years ago drills (the hand held machine tool) were made with all metal bodies.....now they are all plastic...….anything is possible if the technology supports it.

    I don't think anyone would make parts for production using a single printer.....more likely there would be a multiple set-up as the need arises...…….a printer also can print more than one part at a time with multiple heads
    \Ian.



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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Many modern drills may be made of plastic. I find they don't last very long.
    My cast metal B&D from 40+ years ago remains my #1 portable drill.

    Cheers
    Roger



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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Quote Originally Posted by A_Camera View Post
    If those words have ever been really said and if he meant as the quote is used then there is an excuse for him. Computers were new inventions at that time, there were no similar products, extremely complicated to make and enormously expensive, not just to build, but also to run. If the invention of transistor would have never taken place then I think Watson would have been proved right. CNC machining and 3D printing, as well as sintering metal is not new technology so we have a better reference base to guess the future than Watson had. He was proven wrong pretty fast, just a few years after that statement but that's because of the transistor making it possible to build smaller, more powerful, less demanding computers.

    I am not sure if he really said that or if it is just an anecdote, like Bill Gates famous words about "640kb memory is more than anyone ever will need, so we'll build our computers to handle maximum 1024kb memory". He never said anything similar, even though some people claim he did. He was a real vision-er, perhaps he still is, Watson was a finance man, just thinking about $$$$.
    Actually, just yesterday I watched a historical documentary on TV about technological developments of the 80's and saw an interview with Steve Jobs, just after the official release of Macintosh in 1984, and the reporter asked about his future computer dreams. His answer was that he dreams about a computer as powerful as the Macintosh in the size of a book but thin as a magazine... "but that's technologically impossible". Looking at my phone or any tablets, all of those are MORE powerful than my old SE/30 from 1989, which I still have and is in working condition. So, guessing the future is not easy, not even if you are heavily involved in technology and are part of that future.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/AdaptingCamera/videos
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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Judging by the plummeting cost of technology, and using a computer for a comparison, the 3D printer will one day be the main tool for manufacture......of that I will bet the family jewels on.

    At the same time, it's a possibility that metals will be replaced by composites just to make the system work...….you don't have to use metal if an alternative material will do the same job.

    I would think that the part to be made would be redesigned to cater for the 3D printer characteristics instead of beating your brains out trying to print parts in unsuitable materials.

    Many years ago drills (the hand held machine tool) were made with all metal bodies.....now they are all plastic...….anything is possible if the technology supports it.

    I don't think anyone would make parts for production using a single printer.....more likely there would be a multiple set-up as the need arises...…….a printer also can print more than one part at a time with multiple heads
    \Ian.
    I seriously doubt this. Call me old fashioned, but 3D printing is about building something layer by layer, in very thin layers, and that is always going to be too low for mass production. Yes, for prototyping is very good but no, it will not replace other production forms, like casting and milling. Even plastic parts are MUCH faster, and provide better quality when cast or milled AND are faster and cheaper to make when mass produced that way. Because motion is involved in both milling and 3D printing, and the physical limitations are the same regarding maximum speed and acceleration, milling wins the race because it can remove material in much faster than adding layers to build up the same shape. 3D printing wins only when very complex shapes must be milled, which are not possible to mill in one piece, but there is not always a need to make things out of a single piece, so the occasions are few when 3D printer wins over milling. I also don't believe that 3D printing metal in home/hobby environment is a realistic dream, while milling metal at home is absolutely no problem today, not even in the living space environment where I use my CNC. So, even if 3D printers for printing metal can be used industrially, they will never be the main tool for manufacturing.

    Also, just because many things are made out of plastics today, it doesn't mean that they are better than metal. Yes, there are plenty extremely strong plastic products around, but if they are really made just as strong and good as metal counterparts then they are either very expensive, or are much heavier and larger. Of course, CF is strong, but again, that's not for every hobby manufacturer and definitely not something I'd use in my home office as I am using my CNC or 3D printer.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/AdaptingCamera/videos
    https://adapting-camera.blogspot.com


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    Gold Member daniellyall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    A_Camera useing some of the CF machines you have to get the printing in the direction of where the strength is needed the other direction has a lot of flex, if flex and strength is need it good for that. Roger .1mm is easy to get you just design for manufacture I have hit .05 it was hard.

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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Quote Originally Posted by daniellyall View Post
    A_Camera useing some of the CF machines you have to get the printing in the direction of where the strength is needed the other direction has a lot of flex, if flex and strength is need it good for that. Roger .1mm is easy to get you just design for manufacture I have hit .05 it was hard.
    Roger said 0.01mm not 0.1 which is a pretty large difference.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/AdaptingCamera/videos
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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    So, correct me if I'm wrong...……..a large 3D printer could have a number of nozzles spitting out parts as opposed to a single part on a smaller printer.

    If a factory has printers capable of spitting out 10 parts at a time per machine and you have 10 machines......maybe 50 machines.....whatever...………..just in time will dictate how many parts you need to make to fulfill the order volume...…….once you have a stock level built up initially.

    My contention is that the capability of a printer to change part type by the program without the expense of casting equipment or jigs and fixtures etc, could make mass part production a reality.

    Some time back I went to my local hardware supplier to source a drill as my present 20 volt Ryobi drill with it's NMH batteries kept losing charge in 2 days just sitting on the bench...….a new battery cost $58 at the time which made me a bit peeved as the present 2 were useless after a year and mild usage.

    Long story short.....the Ryobi was out of stock as it was also out of production...…...grrrrrrrrr…...so I bit the bullet and plumped for an Ozito 10mm drill with two Lithium Ion batteries at $85, and after 3 months sitting on the bench the battery(s) still has full charge in it...…...so what is that to do with 3d printing?.

    Well, it is all to do about supply and inventory...…...if the part is out of stock that means there is a demand for it and you increase production accordingly by whatever means...….why use one printer when you have orders to keep a 100 printers busy.....they are product variable after all and you can dedicate them to one product or as many variations as the programs will cater for.

    It comes down to how reliable would the printers be for long term continuous use.

    But that does not mean the 3D printer will take over from the CNC milling process...….it's just another tool to do the job...……...a screwdriver will not replace a chisel to gouge out holes in wood., but both are needed at some time or other.

    Back in my late Father's day it was Bakerlite if you were thinking in terms of a non plastic component......I can still smell the stuff when I had to drill into it.....then it was fibre glass .
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Are 3D printed metal components going to replace milling?

    Hi Ian

    Battery life - that is almost 'normal' for the difference between NMH and Lithium. Much better with Li.

    100 3D printers in parallel ... floor space, staff, maintenance, ..... hum.

    Ozito - well ... you didn't consider something like a Makita, Bosch or similar quality?

    Cheers



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