Would love senior advice on CNC milling machine.

[TheTester]

Hello guys I am new to the forums here and not sure where to post on the some bazillion forums HAHAH.. I have been working now in my small home shop on a manual mill and lathe for some time money is OK but time to explore further. I have been contemplating a CNC for a LONG time and have many used CNC mill options at great prices where I live. I have never operated one of these machines at all. I would like to know if this is feasible? A newbie with no formal training and skills associated with a cnc buying and operating adequately such a machine. Am I getting in over my head with my contemplations?.. I have a very small grasp of the objects involved with a cnc mill. I have seen G code but know none of it. I am NOT a mathematician. I was reading some posts on another site that one simply would draw in cad, import to cam, set tool paths then run.. I do not know where to start? A BIG DIFFERENCE IS THAT I WOULD BE THE OWNER and maintaining this machine, setting up and running is all on me. Not like the big house machine shops call tech when prob goes wrong. I know that profits and job capability opens LARGELY with a cnc mill so I am willing to seek out the info if only I knew where to start. Please if you own, maintain and operate a cnc milling center, give a newcomer your best seasoned advice.

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[HuFlungDung]

If you are comfortable with using a PC, that is a good start, and having manual machine experience already gives you a very good idea of what to expect, and even better, how cutting occurs, and what is reasonable for good cutting conditions.

You only need to be a mathematician to calculate arc center coordinates for circular cutting, and to deduce taper angles I am reasonably comfortable with math, including trigonometry, but I cannot stand doing toolpath calculations. So I got cadcam very shortly after I bought my first cnc (which was a lathe) and never looked back. There are plenty of inexpensive cadcam programs around to play with until such time as you decide to go serious and invest in professional cadcam packages.

Go for it. Learning and running CNC is a great hobby, if nothing else, and one that has potential for payback.

Keep in mind that the purchase of the major piece is only the beginning. There are many accessories that run the price of the hobby up quite fast.

[underthetire]

Manual machinists usually make the best CNC machinist. So your good there. Just a word of caution, be very careful what used CNC you buy. The "old" name brands are either no longer in business, been bought out 10X, or just a name now. If you were doing a retrofit that's different. Some machines you simply can not get parts or help with any longer. Find a couple, post here with details on each, and get input from members here. I personally have been a CNC repair/engineer for the last 20+ years, I know there are a few of us on here that would be more than willing to answer questions.

[cbr_speedster]

I'm with HeFlungDung, I've been programming for over 20 years and in the process of helping a beginner with a mill & lathe. After setting him up with a starter file I then built the post for his machine for free, gave him several thousand dollars worth of tips and advise. Now in the process of program training using Esprit demo software. You can program at the machine if you want to take several days to program a drilled hole & tap. I can program parts in minutes once the tooling and software are dialed in. The biggest cost you'll run into for a mill is tooling. Lathes use standard tools where mills use facemills, endmills, ball endmills, drills, taps, reamers, spot tools, threadmills, t-slot cutters, etc, etc. Not to mention all the various fixtures you'll need to program and make to hold the parts. Do you personally know a programmer in your hometown that could help? This guy called me out of the blue and asked for help. Never met the guy before and his shop was only 3 blocks from my house. He had the machines for over 3 years and wanted to get them going but couldn't find anyone that knew how to fixture, setup and program them. Good luck. E-mail me with any questions and I'll see if I can help a fellow CNCer.

[UUU]

Go for it. I have manual lathe and mill, too - and have now got a CNC mill and am enjoying it hugely.

You may have much of the workholding and tooling kit already for your manual mill, so you may have less to fear from this than a new starter.

You'll get on better if you are already a computer user and basic arithmetic goes a long way.

[TheTester]

Tanks guys for all of your suggestions and kind replies. Cbr thank you so much for your offer of help. I have not bought a CNC mill machine yet.... I have been contemplating the purchase for a while to add to my shop here. I know it will open up the door to many more jobs and expand my income. I AM HOPING LOL.. I will be buying used I am sure after looking at prices of 30 grand and more. I live in an area that is very popular for machine shops of every caliber. NASA and military bases are all located here and I would say 60 percent of the work these shops do is for them. The rest is for the automobile industry.

The overall question of "IF I CAN DO IT" has been answered but I was also wondering. Is it necessary to know g code these days? Has the software mainly taken over in the way of drawing a product and getting it to the machine? I am VERY fluent with a PC and its internal structure software and hardware.. I learned Photoshop in about a month if that says much. I am labled as an electronic engineer as well but only in discrete electronics I never expanded over in to PIC or programmable integrated chips. I design websites a little on the side. I have tried learning C++ and it was going REAL slow. I was however self teaching. I mentioned all of this as it may show mental grasp of things in this nature. I don't know how g code and setup/programming a CNC would compare to these. I mentioned math before as I can only imagine what would be involved with designing an in detail part and then telling the machine every detail.

Someone mentioned what type of machine would I buy. Well what I have seen up for sale here on craigslist is a few name brands. I am not familiar with where on the food chain they are or quality comparison. Mazzak, Remedy, and Fadal are all I have seen with regularity. I have been a temp hire in a few of the big shops and these names seem to be labeled on MOST of all the machines they ran in these shops.

If you guys can add further clarification to any of this I would be EVEN MORE grateful than I already am for you replies. This is a HUGE step for me and my savings so I want to be sure I know what I am getting into and whether or not I can handle it on my own.

Thanks so much,
TheTester

[underthetire]

To answer your question on those machines, I've never even herd of Remedy. Mazak is an OK machine, and they are still around, if you can get a Mazak with the Mazatrol, that will cure any questions on G code programming, since they have a very useful conversational control. Fadal is gone. Not sure on future parts supplies, right now I haven't seen any problems, although they are not my first choice in machines. Hurco is another machine with good conversational programming, at least the later machines, but the actual machine is way below other brands. At least they are still around, even if they charge WAY too much for parts. HAAS is always a good bet for a starter machine, if you can find a good used one.

[HuFlungDung]

Gcode is nothing to fear. It is easy to read, not so easy to write and type in (perfection is required). While I have never composed much gcode by hand, I can read it without any problem, and even hand edit a bit of it when necessary.

You've got 4 basic motion commands that makes up the lion's share of the action: G00 rapid, G01 linear feed, and G02 and G03 for arc motion.

There are several other gcodes of interest for setting modes in the machine, and setting coordinate system datum points etc.

Another group of gcodes is shorthand for common reptitive machining operations like peck drilling holes. Again, there is only a handful, and it can be helpful to have a chart nearby describing how each one works, when you would use them and so forth. Such a chart would describe the syntax for correct addesses for the parameters that define how the cycles work.

A lot of this information is presented in a fairly cryptic way by the manufacturers...as though to only remind you of what you already know But, the newbies can usually get on with it without too much difficulty.

I would avoid getting myself tied down to any particular conversational control. While these can be good for shops doing a certain type of work, they don't seem to me to be very useful in keeping records of what you've done in the way that a full blown cadcam system (like OneCNC, which is what I use) can do.

I'd recommend looking at Haas machines, as they are very user friendly, and lots of guys can help you out with your newbie questions.

[TheTester]

Man thanks again for great information Huflungdung. Since I am buying used MOST LIKELY,... are there any suggestions on brand to look at or stay away from and if so what reasons? Speaking of KRYPTIC you have already been speaking in code in my eyes LOL.. I don't know what a conversational control is.. I am COMPLETELY new to CNC.. I have been around them and rebuild chucks, replaced encoders, servos, replaced spindle heads, and even down to replacing spindle drives. I have replaced a few PLC's as well. I DON"T KNOW the first thing about running them. Isn't that ODD?? I think so and this is me were all talking about.

I worked as a supervisor at a couple diff large establishments. Funny thing, what I got a degree and majored in was business administration but turned into a machinist. Hey, thats what I like to call myself anyways LOL.. As per my abilities in electronics and my ability to read a freaking book and schematics, I saved the company outside labor fees of excess of $200 an hour many times.. I impressed the hell out of the owner and that was what I was trying to do to KEEP my job. HAHAHA. Nothing special really just folks not willing to take the time to read manuals and books. Time to money factor with those big companies. TIME IS MONEY! Sad isn't it? I did learn something though. To bad I decided not to stay with either company and here I am ten years later of running my own small business. The whole time I was in college for business, I learned machinist work from an old man and friend of the family. I never stopped even though I was seeking jobs in the management field and no where close to metal work. I do make well for myself now so to speak. MUCH MUCH more than I was making at either of those companies but the things you pick up and learn are stifled when you work for yourself. You kinda stick to what you know and expand slowly on such. Thus here I am again because of that tendency. I never learned how to operate these machines and I SHOULD have.

I wish there were more literature on the subject for the blind and complete new on comers. Now that I have rambled off with a full biography HAHAHAH ( that was unintended blathering ) sorry for that. Any of you have suggestions on the brands to keep an eye out for? I am looking up information on HAAS as we speak. Any other starting points and reading any of you may suggest. Any tid bits of information you guys give is a tremendous help. I have no problem getting Great CAD software. A family member has solid works and I can use it if I like. Cam I am clueless on. I think both of those are far away in the learning curve though.

Thanks again,
TheTester!

[Ed from NY]

Hi Tester,

On gCode... I was cheap, skimped on the CAM software and got BobCad -- I paid for it in other ways. I have never run a program that I did not have to manually edit, many of them pretty extensively. There are many other options for CAM software, unfortunately I can not really make a recommendation based on first hand experience. Also I'm not sure if I would not be tweaking what they generate anyway. May be others can chime in. However, the basics of gcode are not difficult at all. The bits relatively simple and there are not many of them. What makes it complicated or confusing is all the coordinates and the fact that a lot of it is "modal".

So... you need an editor which is also a simulator like the Predator Editor Predator CNC Editor software for CNC editing and comparing CNC files, DNC, 3D backplotting and verification of CNC programs even if it is just to (1) double check the code generated, (2) make small adjustments and (3) collate or rearrange bits and pieces.

I have never used conversational as I have a few spreadsheets that generate code as i like it. It is used to generate simple operations. It can be integrated in your controller or it can be a standalone utility. Here is a video showing the general idea [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uusf8_ayQFQ"]YouTube - KipwareM® Video #1 - Conversational CNC Programming Software[/nomedia]

.

In summary your software tools are likely to include:

1) A CAM program to generate "full" gcode
2) A smaller utility for the simpler stuff (conversational ?)
3) A simulator that allows you to see what the gcode would actually be doing
4) A number of spreadsheets and references for speeds & feeds and records of what works and does not work for your machine/materials/tooling.

Good luck!

PS: not sure if 44 qualifies as "senior", but I figure I would share the above anyway

[TheTester]

Sure sounds like your a senior in your field of work to me. Your one post has helped me so much. It assisted with the other replies gives me a pretty good grasp at how this CNC business works. From all that I have read and looked at I see that designing in cad software= the actual design of the part then the transfer to cam= software that translates the actual design to parameters that the cnc can recognize which is gcode. Knowing how to alter CAM and edit some parameters of gcode is somewhat an extra knowledge to acquire gradually.

I can also get the drift and see why people are saying learn gcode anyway. Cam is not perfect at plotting machine efficiency or doing things the way a real machinist would want to do. Is all this correct? I don't have a full understanding of the "conversational" that is in cnc controllers yet. I do get the overall gist of how overall CNC works though. I have worked in solidworks before designing small objects and it isn't that hard for me. I think CNC intimidated me more than it should have. I sure would love to chat some more with a few of you guys either IM or email, that would like to teach some rooky the ropes with CNC..

On another board some people say "why teach you? Your just more competition in the metalworking field" LOL Well, I only have two vertical mills, a couple of lathes, surface grinder, press brakes, welders, torches etc etc, You know small basic "MANUAL" machine shop stuff. If you would even consider this these days as machine shop. LMAO.....OLD SCHOOL compared to most shops with CNC and robotics. I think I might at most have a few CNC machines in the future with all the rest of what I got now. I don't think I will be a threat to anyone in this business. LOL

[cbr_speedster]

I have used several software packages over the years and my recommendation for a nice package that won't break the bank would be SmartCAM. I used SC for 15 years, built and editted my own posts and programmed many types of machines with it from burners, punch plasma, lathes and mills. You can draw 2D geometry quickly and create tool path from the geometry. If you want a high end package I currently use Esprit. This is a complete package, you can draw 2D, create solid models from the geometry, import just about any type of file and program any type of machine with awesome graphics for exact simulation. SmartCAM is easy to learn and would be perfect for programming vertical machines.

[Ed from NY]

Hi Tester, you are too kind . Perhaps the biggest decision you will be making is what size of machine. A few people to get started with CNC on desktop-type machines ($5k-10K new). They have their place, but if time is money you need a machine with an ATC ("automatic tool changer") -- that is, it changes tools on its own from gcode instructions. You may find a "small" used VMC for $10-15K, but it is buyer beware and you may have to fix a few things, however these would be vastly superior machines. New, a frequent entry level choice is the Haas TM-1 for around $30K.

Other than that you just have to jump in with both feet. It is not rocket science. Small steps and perseverance. As a way of encouragement... many people consider speeds and feeds the hardest part of this whole thing. I'm pretty sure you got that under control

[macca_loto]

By the sounds of things you would benefit from the use of a simple program such as CIMCO edit. Allows you to program in ISO and verify it at the same time to prove out your work. You can get started on this before you even buy a machine. Can get a trial version of it online i think even from cimco.